Fermented/"non-fermented" wine

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I was having a discussion with a family that is Pentecostal. They are strictly against alcoholic beverages. (I’m not sure if that is the family’s position or the Pentecostal position) but we were discussing Jesus at the wedding at Cana. They say that “non-fermented” wine- in other words grape juice- was what Jesus made and not wine. I always thought grape juice was impossible to keep back then, and never gave a second thought to the subject. Then I did some research and I found this: orgsites.com/ky/jesusfirst/_pgg9.php3

It basically says it was possible to preserve grape juice back then. It goes on the explain that wine was not used at the Last Supper, either.

Now I am confused! How do I defend this issue after this argument? Thanks!
 
I have heard that alcohol was added to kill germs in the water, since they didn’t have an effective way of doing so back then. As was mentioned in the articles of the last poster, alcohol in itself is not sinful, but getting drunk is sinful.
 
I Cor 11

how did they get drunk on grape juice? esp, in a culture where wine was consumed at meals.
 
The article states that grape juice was preserved by boiling down the juice to a syrup and then immersing glass jars of it into cold water or by putting sulphur in the jars before sealing them.

It goes on to say that Jewish law forbid consumption of alcoholic beverages when musical instruments were played during festive occasions such as weddings! I’m no expert on the subject of Jewish law, so I can’t comment on this statement. (Or any that follow, either.)

The article goes on to say that Jesus would have never made wine for everyone at the wedding because he would have been morally responsible for everyone getting drunk!

It also says that Jesus could not have used wine at the Last Supper because anything fermented is not allowed at Passover. Also, “Jesus would not have led us into temptation” with wine.

Here is a very disturbing quote (to me anyway) from the article: “We cannot conceive of Christ bending over to bless in grateful prayer a cup containing alcoholic wine which the Scripture warns us not to look at (Prov 23:31). A cup that intoxicates is a cup of cursing and not “the cup of blessing” (1 Cor 10:16); it is “the cup of demons” and not “the cup of the Lord” (1 Cor 10:21); it is a cup that cannot fittingly symbolize the incorruptible and “precious blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:18-19). This gives us reason to believe that the cup He “blessed” and gave to His disciples did not contain any “fermented thing” prohibited by Scripture.”

Friends, I hope that someone of the Jewish faith reads this and can help out on some of these points. Thank you, Frances for the links, but I am still confused. The arguments against wine in the article seem so convincing yet…yet what, I don’t know, I’m so disturbed by this info…I’ve never heard anything like this before and it’s blowing my mind.

Thanks friends for the (name removed by moderator)ut. :confused: Tasha
 
I’m changing the title of the post. It wasn’t worded right and maybe I can attract more readers. 🤷
 
The article is nonsense and based on a book – WINE IN THE BIBLE by Samuele Bacchiocchi, which selectly quotes Marcus Cato, On Agriculture.
scribd.com/doc/7818024/Wine-in-the-bible-abridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi
google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CDgQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biblicalperspectives.com%2Fbooks%2Fwine_in_the_bible%2F2.html&ei=sbxyTMSnGom8sAPau52hCw&usg=AFQjCNHzUVxCOE_OXIy2slS8Wa6sBWUfrg&sig2=yi52PEgjEEIkmkm3KAGWgg
google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Marcus+Cato%2C+On+Agriculture&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=634be7f9c98ae18c

The only festival where “fermented thing” is forbidden is passover, and even there that does not relate to wine.

here is a good refutation, of the grape juice thing,
cuf.org/FileDownloads/wine.pdf

Ask them to explain,

Isaiah 25:6
On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.

Use Strong’s Concordance to show that Wine means alcoholic drink, not grape Juice,

Tts 2:3 The aged women 4247 likewise 5615, that [they be] in 1722 behaviour 2688 as becometh holiness 2412, not 3361 false accusers 1228, not 3361 given 1402 to much 4183 wine 3631, teachers of good things 2567;
blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=wine&t=KJV&page=9

Eph 5:18 And 2532 be 3182 0 not 3361 drunk 3182 with wine 3631, wherein 1722 3739 is 2076 excess 810; but 235 be filled 4137 with 1722 the Spirit 4151;

Jhn 2:3 And 2532 when they wanted 5302 wine 3631, the mother 3384 of Jesus 2424 saith 3004 unto 4314 him 846, They have 2192 no 3756 wine 3631.
Jhn 2:9 1161 When 5613 the ruler of the feast 755 had tasted 1089 the water 5204 that was made 1096 wine 3631, and 2532 knew 1492 not 3756 whence 4159 it was 2076 : (but 1161 the servants 1249 which 3588 drew 501 the water 5204 knew 1492 😉 the governor of the feast 755 called 5455 the bridegroom 3566,
Jhn 2:10 And 2532 saith 3004 unto him 846, Every 3956 man 444 at the beginning 4412 doth set forth 5087 good 2570 wine 3631; and 2532 when 3752 men have well drunk 3184 , then 5119 that which is worse 1640: [but] thou 4771 hast kept 5083 the good 2570 wine 3631 until 2193 now 737.

Read I Cor 11, did the church get drunk on grape juice?

John 2:10 (New International Version)
10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

Ask them to explain John 2:9-10, how is grape Juice the choice or best wine?

These articles from the Jewish Encylopedia proves that music and wine often went together at festivals,

jewishencyclopedia.com/search_results.jsp?searchType=1&pageNum=1&search=wine+festival&searchOpt=0

jewishencyclopedia.com/search_results.jsp?searchType=1&pageNum=1&search=wine&searchOpt=0&x=23&y=10

even Bible Dictionaries proves that Wine is not grape Juice,

Psa 23:5, Song of Solomon 2:4, 8:2; 1 Samuel 1:14-15; Deuteronomy 14:26;

Manners & Customs: Banquets and Feasts
Banquets and Expensive Feasts in the Ancient World
 
Banquets in Easton’s Bible Dictionary a feast provided for the entertainment of a company of guests (Esther 5; 7; 1 Pet. 4:3); such as was provided for our Lord by his friends in Bethany (Matt. 26:6; Mark 14:3; comp. John 12:2). These meals were in the days of Christ usually called “suppers,” after the custom of the Romans, and were partaken of toward the close of the day. It was usual to send a second invitation (Matt. 22:3; Luke 14:17) to those who had been already invited. When the whole company was assembled, the master of the house shut the door with his own hands (Luke 13:25; Matt. 25:10). The guests were first refreshed with water and fragrant oil (Luke 7:38; Mark 7:4). A less frequent custom was that of supplying each guest with a robe to be worn during the feast (Eccles. 9:8; Rev. 3:4, 5; Matt. 22:11). At private banquets the master of the house presided; but on public occasions a “governor of the feast” was chosen (John 2:8). The guests were placed in order according to seniority (Gen. 43:33), or according to the rank they held (Prov. 25:6,7; Matt. 23:6; Luke 14:7). As spoons and knives and forks are a modern invention, and were altogether unknown in the East, the hands alone were necessarily used, and were dipped in the dish, which was common to two of the guests (John 13:26). In the days of our Lord the guests reclined at table; but the ancient Israelites sat around low tables, cross-legged, like the modern Orientals. Guests were specially honoured when extra portions were set before them (Gen. 43:34), and when their cup was filled with Wine till it ran over (Ps. 23:5). The hands of the guests were usually cleaned by being rubbed on bread, the crumbs of which fell to the ground, and were the portion for dogs (Matt. 15:27; Luke 16:21). At the time of the three annual festivals at Jerusalem family banquets were common. To these the “widow, and the fatherless, and the stranger” were welcome (Deut. 16:11). Sacrifices also included a banquet (Ex. 34:15; Judg. 16:23). Birthday banquets are mentioned (Gen. 40:20; Matt. 14:6). They were sometimes protracted, and attended with revelry and excess (Gen. 21:8; 29:22; 1 Sam. 25:2,36; 2 Sam. 13:23). Portions were sometimes sent from the table to poorer friends (Neh. 8:10; Esther 9:19, 22). (See MEALS ¯T0002451.)
bible-history.com/eastons/B/Banquet/
 
Banquets in Fausset’s Bible Dictionary Both social and religious. At the three great religious feasts, when all the males appeared before Jehovah, the family had its feast, of which the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow had their share (Deuteronomy 16:11). Sacrifices were accompanied by a feast (Exodus 34:15; Judges 16:23-25). The “lovefeasts” of the early Christians sprung from these sacrificial feasts; as the Lord’s supper came from the Passover. The tithes and firstlings were to be eaten at the sanctuary, if not too far off (Deuteronomy 12:17-18; Deuteronomy 14:22-23). Males and females met together at feasts of old (John 2:1). Vashti’s separate Women’s banquet was a Persian, not Jewish, custom (Esther 1:9). In magnificent feasts, as at royal weddings, a general invitation was given; the accepters were summoned by a second message at the time of the feast (Proverbs 9:1-3; Luke 14:17; Matthew 22). The entertainer provided robes for the guests, to be worn in his honor and as a token of his regard, in Old Testament times the Israelites sat at table (1 Samuel 16:11); and in the order of their dignity or seniority (Genesis 43:33); which explains the point of Jesus’ exhortation to take the lowest place (Luke 14:7-10; Matthew 23:6). The Persians reclined on couches (Esther 7:8). So the Romans. From these the Jews adopted reclining. Thus, the sinful woman could come behind the conch where Jesus lay, and anoint His feet (Luke 7:37-38); and Mary, sister of Lazarus (John 12:2-3); and “John leaned on the Lord’s bosom” at the last supper (John 13:23; John 13:25). Amos reprobates the luxury (Amos 6:4-6). Perfumes were freely used at rich feasts (Psalm 23:5; Ecclesiastes 9:7-8). A “governor of the feast” was appointed (John 2:8-9). The usual time was evening, to begin earlier was a mark of excess (Isaiah 5:11; Ecclesiastes 10:16). “Spiced Wine” was often used (Song of Solomon 8:2). Garlands or crowns of flowers on the head (Isaiah 28:1). Music, vocal and instrumental (Isaiah 5:12), and dancing (Luke 15:25). Wedding feasts often lasted seven days (Judges 14:12). Portions were sent from the entertainer to each guest, and a double or fivefold portion, or special part, to a distinguished guest (1 Samuel 1:5; 1 Samuel 9:23-24; compare 2 Samuel 11:8; Genesis 43:34). Portions direct from table were sent to poorer friends (Nehemiah 8:10; compare Luke 14:13; Esther 9:19; Esther 9:22). A kiss was the proper courtesy wherewith the heat received each guest; to omit it was to be wanting in kindliness (Luke 7:4-5). In the absence of modern knives, forks and spoons, they dipped their hands together in the same dish (Mark 14:20; Proverbs 19:24; Proverbs 26:15, for “bosom” translate dish). After dinner the hands were wiped in a cloth, after a servant had poured water on them (compare Elisha’s office for Elijah, 2 Kings 3:11), or were wiped on pieces of bread, which were then thrown to the household dogs (which illustrates Matthew 15:27). A banquet is a frequent emblem of heavenly happiness (Isaiah 25:6; Luke 14:15; Revelation 19:9). “To eat bread” includes drinking. So in the case of the Lord’s supper (Acts 20:7). So the cup is not expressly mentioned in the Passover supper in the Old Testament but Deuteronomy 14:26; Isaiah 25:6 imply the use of Wine at it. In Eli’s days drinking to excess even at the Lord’s feasts was not uncommon (1 Samuel 1:14-15). Four cups of Wine were mixed with water, blessed and passed round by the master of the feast at the Passover. In Song of Solomon 2:4 the heavenly Bridegroom’s “banqueting house” (house of Wine) is the church in its public ordinances for refreshing the soul, the ministry of the word, joint prayer, and the Lord’s supper (compare Psalm 36:8).
bible-history.com/faussets/B/Banquets/

Banquets in Smiths Bible Dictionary among the Hebrews, were not only a means of social enjoyment, but were a part of the observance of religious festivity. At the three solemn festivals the family also had its domestic feast. De 16:11 Sacrifices, both ordinary and extraordinary, Ex 34:15; Jud 16:23 includes a banquet. Birthday banquets are only mentioned Ge 40:20; Mt 14:6 The usual time of the banquet was the evening, and to begin early was a mark of excess. Ec 10:16; Isa 5:11 The most essential materials of the banqueting room, next to the viands and Wine, which last was often drugged with spices, Pr 9:2 were perfumed unguents, garlands or loose flowers, white or brilliant robes; after these, exhibitions of music singers and dancers, riddles, jesting and merriment. Jud 14:12; 2Sa 19:35; Ne 8:10; Ec 10:19; Isa 5:12; 25:6; 28:1; Mt 22:11; Lu 15:25 The posture at table in early times was sitting, 1Sa 16:11; 20:5,18 and the guests were ranged in order of dignity. (Gene 43:33; 1Sam 9:22 Words which imply the recumbent posture belong to the New Testament.
bible-history.com/smiths/B/Banquets/
 
Banquets in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE ban’-kwet. 1. The Ancient Hebrew Customs: (1) “Banquet” and “banqueting” in the King James Version always include and stand for Wine-drinking, not simply “feast” or “feasting” in our sense. Thus (Song 2:4), “He brought me to the banqueting-house” is literally, “the house of Wine,” and Est 7:2 has in the Hebrew “a banquet of Wine.” In the New Testament we see a reflection of the same fact in 1 Pet 4:3 the King James Version, “We walked in … excess of Wine, banquetings” (Greek “drinkings”; the Revised Version (British and American) “carousings”). Compare Amos 6:7 the King James Version, “The banquet of them that stretched themselves,” where the reference seems to be to reclining at Wine-drinkings. See MEALS. The Hebrew of Job 1:4, “make a banquet,” may refer to a social feast of a less objectionable sort (compare 41:6 the King James Version), though the Hebrew for “to drink” yayin “Wine,” was used as synonymous with “banquet.” See SYMPOSIUM. Music, dancing and merriment usually attended all such festivities. Certainly the ancient Hebrews, like other peoples of the ancient East, were very fond of social feasting, and in Christ’s day had acquired, from contact with Greeks and Romans, luxurious and bibulous habits, that often carried them to excess in their social feasts. 2. In Christ’s Teaching and Practice: Among the Greeks the word for “feast” (doche) is from dechomai “to receive” (compare our English usage, “to receive” and “reception”). This word doche is used with poiein “to make,” to signify “to make” or “give a feast.” Compare Lk 5:29 where Levi “made a feast.” (1) In view of existing customs and abuses, Christ taught His followers when they gave a banquet to invite the poor, etc. (Lk 14:13), rather than, as the fashion of the day called for, to bid the rich and influential. Much in the New Testament that has to do with banquets and banquetings will be obscure to us of the West if we do not keep in mind the many marked differences of custom between the East and the West. (2) “Banquets” were usually given in the house of the host to specially invited guests (Lk 14:15; Jn 2:2), but much more freedom was accorded to the uninvited than we of the West are accustomed to, as one finds to be true everywhere in the East today. The custom of reclining at meals (see MEALS; TRICLINIUM, etc.) was everywhere in vogue among the well-to-do in Christ’s day, even in the case of the ordinary meals, the guest leaning upon…
bible-history.com/isbe/B/BANQUET/

Banquets Scripture - Esther 7:2 And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of Wine, What [is] thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what [is] thy request? and it shall be performed, [even] to the half of the kingdom.
bible-history.com/kjv/Esther/7/

Banquets Scripture - Esther 7:7 And the king arising from the banquet of Wine in his wrath [went] into the palace garden: and Haman stood up to make request for his life to Esther the queen; for he saw that there was evil determined against him by the king.
bible-history.com/kjv/Esther/7/

Banquets Scripture - Esther 7:8 Then the king returned out of the palace garden into the place of the banquet of Wine; and Haman was fallen upon the bed whereon Esther [was]. Then said the king, Will he force the queen also before me in the house? As the word went out of the king’s mouth, they covered Haman’s face.
bible-history.com/kjv/Esther/7/

Dining and Entertainment FOOD AND ENTERTAINMENT AT BANQUETS The prophet Amos, although he denounced extravagant luxuries and sinful excesses, nevertheless has given us a description of the eating, drinking, and other customs at an Oriental banquet. This is the way he describes it: “And stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; that chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David; that drink Wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments” (Amos 6:4-6). The meat eaten at these suppers included the best lambs from the flock and calves that had been stall-fed. The drinking of Wine at the feast was considered an important feature. Playing on stringed instruments was another activity and the guests evidently vied with one another in anointing their bodies with very costly ointments. Dancing was often a part of the entertainment at these feasts. When the Prodigal Son returned home, and his father celebrated with a feast, there was music and dancing (Luke 15:24, 25). Dancing was a social diversion of the Hebrew women and girls, especially when they made merry. Men did sometimes engage in it, as when David danced when the ark was brought to Jerusalem (II Samuel 6:14). But more often, it was the activity of the fair sex (cf. Jeremiah 31:4). But there is no Scriptural record that the Jewish men danced with the women, as is the modern custom of the West. Neither is there indication that there were public female dancers, as is true in some Eastern places today. The dancing of the daughter of Herodias (Matthew 14:6) before men at a sensual banquet was the kind introduced among the Jews by corrupt Greek influence. [Manners And Customs of Bible Lands]
baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=NMUXqVyfq70%3d&tabid=232&mid=762
 
Feasts in Naves Topical Bible Ancient customs at Men alone present at Ge 40:20; 43:32,34; 1Sa 9:22; Es 1:8,9; Mr 6:21; Lu 14:24 -Men and women attend Ex 32:6; with 32:2,3; Da 5:1-3 -Riddles propounded at Jud 14:12 -Marriage feasts provided by the bridegroom Jud 14:10,17 -Guests arranged according to age Ge 43:33 -Rank 1Sa 9:22; Lu 14:8-10 -Reclined on couches Am 6:4,7; Lu 7:38; Joh 13:25 -Served in one dish Mt 26:23 -Were presided over by a master of ceremonies Joh 2:8,9 -Host served Ge 18:8 -Wine served at Es 5:6; 7:7 -Music at Isa 5:12; Am 6:4,5; Lu 15:25 -Dancing at Mt 14:6; Lu 15:25 -Given by kings 1Sa 20:5; 25:36; 2Sa 9:10; 1Ki 2:7; 4:22; 18:19; Es 1:3-8; Da 5:1-4 -Drunkenness at 1Sa 25:36; Es 1:10; Da 5:1-4 -Covenants ratified by Ge 26:28-30 -Celebrations by Birthdays Ge 40:20; Mr 6:21 Coronations 1Ki 1:25; 1Ch 12:38-40 National deliverances Es 8:17; 9:17-19 -FIGURATIVE Mt 22:1-14; Lu 14:16-24; Re 19:9,17 -ANNUAL FESTIVALS -(Instituted by Moses) Designated as SOLEMN FEASTS Nu 15:3; 2Ch 8:13; La 2:6; Eze 46:9 SET FEASTS Nu 29:39; Ezr 3:5 APPOINTED FEASTS Isa 1:14 HOLY CONVOCATIONS Le 23:4 First and last days were SABBATIC Le 23:39,40; Nu 28:18-25; 29:12,35; Ne 8:1-18 Kept with rejoicing Le 23:40; De 16:11-14; 2Ch 30:21-26; Ezr 6:22; Ne 8:9-12,17; Ps 42:4; 122:4; Isa 30:29; Zec 8:19 Divine protection given during Ex 34:24 The three principal were: PASSOVER, PENTECOST, TABERNACLES All males were required to attend Ex 23:17; 34:23; De 16:16; Ps 42:4; 122:4; Eze 36:38; Lu 2:44; Joh 4:45; 7 Aliens (non-Jews) were permitted to attend Joh 12:20; Ac 2:1-11 Attended by women 1Sa 1:3,9; Lu 2:41 Observed By Jesus Mt 26:17-20; Lu 2:41,42; 22:15; Joh 2:13,23; 5:1; 7:10; 10:22 By Paul Ac 18:21; 19:21; 20:6,16; 24:11,17
bible-history.com/naves/B/FEASTS/
 
Here is a very disturbing quote (to me anyway) from the article: “We cannot conceive of Christ bending over to bless in grateful prayer a cup containing alcoholic wine which the Scripture warns us not to look at (Prov 23:31). A cup that intoxicates is a cup of cursing and not “the cup of blessing” (1 Cor 10:16); it is “the cup of demons” and not “the cup of the Lord” (1 Cor 10:21); it is a cup that cannot fittingly symbolize the incorruptible and “precious blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:18-19). This gives us reason to believe that the cup He “blessed” and gave to His disciples did not contain any “fermented thing” prohibited by Scripture.”
Read John 2, they were already drunk when Jesus made the wine, Jesus did NOT make them drunk – their argument is like being a little bit pregrant.
Havdalah set (in Hebrew, distinction): a cup of wine, a spice box and a braided candle. The ancient blessing of the Havdalah, recited after dark on Sabbath and holidays (when it is dark enough for three stars to be shown), distinguishes between the sacred and the ordinary. The ceremony is done 6by reciting blessings over a wine cup and passing around a box with spices such as cloves and myrtle. A braided candle is lit over a plate, then put out by pouring some wine over it. The Havdalah is concluded with songs such as “Elijah the prophet” and other hymns based on the Jerusalem Talmud. [Hillel at ASU collections]
asu.edu/lib/exhibits/teachdiligently.htm

Proverbs 23 in context forbids getting drunk, not drinking wine at meals or simply looking at wine,

29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek **mixed wine. **

NOTE: “mixed wine” is non-kosher wine or wine where strong drink is mixed with wine. see,
Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

In Context 1 Corinthians 10 does not prove the wine is grape juice, nor does it deny that the wine is wine. Go on to 1 Corinthians 11 and ask them to explain,

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and **another is drunken. **

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to **drink in? **or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

How exactly did they get drunk on grape Juice?

1 Peter 1:18-19 has nothing to do with the topic what the wine was.
 
Tasha, put your mind at rest.

You’ve got to remember one thing. Wine wasn’t made for alcoholic purposes. Wine was made because of one important thing - Preservation.

There is no way that grape juice was used at the Passover because the grape season hadn’t reached harvest status yet - That would be during the feast of Pentecost 50 days later. Pentecost is the festival thanking God for the first fruits of the Harvest.

With that being said, any non-fermented grapes would have been rotten by the time of the Passover. Hence, in order to keep the grapes in a drinkable state, the Jews HAD TO LET IT FERMENT.

What I think the article that you referenced proves a point that I’ve long held. When one has a preconceived belief system, they will insert those misconceptions into how they read Scripture.

For example, look at your statement.
"We cannot conceive of Christ bending over to bless in grateful prayer a cup containing alcoholic wine which the Scripture warns us not to look at (Prov 23:31).
Look at Proverbs 23:31, but add the context in which the quote is used (This is something one should ALWAYS do when looking at Scripture verses - Context is EVERYTHING!).
29 Who scream? Who shriek? Who have strife? Who have anxiety? Who have wounds for nothing? Who have black eyes? 30 Those who linger long over wine, those who engage in trials of blended wine. 31 Look not on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the glass. It goes down smoothly; 32 but in the end it bites like a serpent, or like a poisonous adder.
Proverbs describes what happens when one lingers too long over wine. And your anti-alcohol bible-thumping evangelist has twisted this to prove their point.
Ask any Jew if they’ve ever heard of a Passover with Grape Juice over Wine. They will probably laugh in your face!
 
Also remember, wine was most often mixed with water when drinking. Even the worst Roman drunks tended to water down their wine when drinking it.

And another thing. Wine wasn’t only drunk during Jewish festivals and weddings. Wine was the most common drink for the entire ancient Near East. Why? Have you ever drunk stale water from wells? Not very appetizing. And not very healthy.

Wine tended to kill the bacteria that would have other-wise formed in stale water.

In my opinion, those that think Jesus and His disciples didn’t drink wine are placing their own beliefs above reality and are ignorant of the ancient world.
 
Big Dummy,

Sorry, but I didn’t read your post number 12 before I attempted to explain Proverbs 23. It tends to happen when you have the attention span of a tree frog like I do. After going back and reading through your posts, I saw that excellent explanation.

Also, I gotta tell you, I think of Fred Sanford picking on his son Lamont every time I read your name!
 
just a side note and it may have been said already. The jucie from grapes beings to frement alsomst emmediatly. It was not possible to stop this processe till the 1800’s when a Methodist minister by the name of Welch ( Welches grape Jucie) discovered a way to preserve it and prevent the fremation from from beginning.
 
Big Dummy, wow! WOW! Thank you so so SO much. That was a load of hard work.:blessyou: I read everything, all of it. Thank you also Notworthy.

I see how people can have a belief or strong opinion and than make Scripture fit those beliefs. The one person that believes the article and views has a spouse with a serious drinking problem. That person looks with disgust upon anyone drinking an alcoholic beverage. Makes us all very uncomfortable and guilt-ridden.
I feel a lot better. I just hope I can condense all this info, which won’t be easy, when the time comes again. And it will. I have a lot of contact with this family.
 
It’s very hurtful and insulting to me and it makes me so angry that people think we are drinking from “a cup of demons”.
 
It’s very hurtful and insulting to me and it makes me so angry that people think we are drinking from “a cup of demons”.
Don’t let it insult you. In a vast majority of cases, these people think this because they’ve been taught this. When you think that the Catholic Church is wrong (which is easy when its been taught to you since you were a child), you end up wanting to believe all the things said against it.

One thing also to consider. Many of these groups want to call “New Wine” grape juice. Ask them why the Jews claimed that the Apostles at Pentecost (Acts, chapter 2) were drunk on new wine.
 
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