Fess Up! Do You Really Know What's Going On In the Latin Mass?

[James224]

Latin Mass, Tridentine Mass, Extraordinary Mass… .Whatever you want to call it.

It’s beautiful, mysterious and reverent.

But do you really understand what’s going on?

Yesterday I went to a Latin mass armed with my missalette. A week earlier I had purchased a book called the Latin Mass Explained by moorman. This was my third Latin mass. The last one I had attended was about a month ago. I felt confident that I knew and understood a lot more than I did a month ago.

Then why was I still lost?

This was a missa cantata which right away had me flipping through the missalette.

Where was the Asberges? How did we get to the Kyrie so quickly?

I knew where to say Amen and where to say “et cum spiritu tuo” but what was that sentence repeated three times right before the communion? After I got home I figured out that was probably the* Domine, non sum dignus*.

Why did the Gospel and homily come after communion?

I knew I was supposed to genuflect at the Et Incarnatus Est during the Credo but I didn’t even hear that part, although apparently the congregation heard it and they genuflected so quickly, I barely had a chance to bend my body an inch before everyone was back on their feet again!

To make it worse, the Pastor’s homily consisted of saying it is fitting that this particular mass should be a requiem mass because of the passion of our Lord.

A Requiem Mass??? That’s why I heard the choir singing Requiems.

So then after he stepped down into the aisles where there some candles laid out in the shape of a coffin and continued with a requiem mass. So that’s what a requiem mass is!

This is not to say I didn’t have a chance to worship during the mass, but I was a confused supplicant indeed.

Does it get to a point where you completely know what is going on even to the point of memorizing all the latin in the mass?

Hi Truelight,

I do understand what is going on. I’ve been going a couple of times a month to the Latin Mass for 18 years now. Matter of fact, recently I started serving again! We were short altar boys so I became the world’s oldest altar boy! lol I’m 55 and learned it initially in 1963. I truly love it but it takes time to catch on. Please use a missal and follow it and eventually you’ll figure it out. It’s so beautiful! I don’t know everything about the Mass but I know the Low Mass pretty well. Stick with it!

 

[TrueLight]

Hi Truelight,

I do understand what is going on. I’ve been going a couple of times a month to the Latin Mass for 18 years now. Matter of fact, recently I started serving again! We were short altar boys so I became the world’s oldest altar boy! lol I’m 55 and learned it initially in 1963. I truly love it but it takes time to catch on. Please use a missal and follow it and eventually you’ll figure it out. It’s so beautiful! I don’t know everything about the Mass but I know the Low Mass pretty well. Stick with it!

I will James. I really enjoyed mass today. It was a high mass and I think I like that better.

What do you call the server who follows the priest around?

Do you guys rehearse?

 

[tradcathconvert]

I became the world’s oldest altar boy! lol I’m 55 and learned it initially in 1963

Well, I will let you be the 2nd oldest. I am 58 and serve all our TLMs as head server, MC, or whatever you want to call it. But then, there maybe a gentleman who will make me only 2nd oldest.

For True Light who said :

I knew I was supposed to genuflect at the Et Incarnatus Est during the Credo but I didn’t even hear that part, although apparently the congregation heard it and they genuflected so quickly, I barely had a chance to bend my body an inch before everyone was back on their feet again!

Watch the priest as he will genuflect when he starts to say “Et Incarnatus Est…”. Even if the altar boys and/or congregation do not hear him when he says it, they will see him genuflect and genuflect also. This happens sometimes at the Last Gospel. During that Gospel everyone genuflects when the priest says," ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST". The congregation has to watch the priest to know when to genuflect at Solemn High Masses because that Gospel is suppose to be said in a inaudible voice.

 

[thirddec]

Yesterday I seen all the threads that were clearly a push on the Latin Mass and I finally decided it was time to enter this discussion. I did my usual ; answering from my own beliefs and sense on the matter ; using only what I felt to be correct and what little information and experience I had as I’m not a theologian or Scholar but im reasonably bright. As always when i’m taking a stand now I often wonder am I arguing this for personal reasons and could I be standing in the way of something Christ actualy wants in his Church. When I get there my only answer is to pray the Rosary and wait for an answer.
Well I believe I got the answer this morning so I felt like sharing it with you guys.

I’m about to go on a journey for a week ( break ) and was looking at what to pack. I noticed a pile of books stuffed in the beside locker with the rest of the junk so I checked to see if there was one that I hadn’t finished. I found a small collins latin english dictionary.
I though what an intresting time to stumble on that but it can heardly be a for or against just a cue so I was prompted to go for my usual 3 message by opening the book at 3 random spots and pick the first word my eyes light on in each. Here is the english version of the 3 words

Unnatural--------Dictatorship----------Together

I thought the first 2 were so on but I thought the 3rd didn’t fit so I began to thing the finding the dictionary was the first message and therefore leave out the together but this didn’t sit well with me either. I tried a few ideas to make sense of it and in the end left it and got on with things. As I washed the dishes a little later it came to me what I believe it means

Unnatural- Listening to Mass in latin would not be in the natural tongue of the
audience and the whole experience would be unnatural for much of
the concregation now. Also yesterday I said in some reply that our
religion should be as natural as breathing to us and in another thread
I’ve started about loving God the Father I was also thinking the same about
him, he wants our love for him to be just as natural just as easy and just as
insticntively easy as breathing.

Dictatorship - Again I felt that although I can understand why some people may gain a
lot from the Latin mass and it should be made available widely enough
for these people it should not be at the expense of others. There was some
answers in threads suggesting that people should just have to learn Latin.
that Latin mass should have priority if the parish were short staffed and this
may not have been the intent of the writer it was clearly seen as
the underlying idea. NOT ALL latin mass supporters were in this mold.
I think we need to be carefull tat we are not trying to push our agenda so
hard that we are trying to Dictate to others.

Together - The word I thought of leaving out but couldn’t turned out to be the most
important in my mind. In this world of trouble and strife ; where there rages
civil unrest through so many nations and organisations we the catholic
church have a duty to stay together. We cannot let our individual
preferances and personal ideas become a source of friction when none
is needed. We need to work together to ensure that everyone can
WORSHIP CHRIST IN THE MASS in the way they feel most comfortable
and natural to them. If a parish has the resources to be able to put on the
Latin mass I say why not, providedit is done in a way that retains Unity and
commitment to the mass for all. As far as those people who maybe have
pushed some of the Mass service so far as to make me cringe at times.
Those are good people who may be on the right track too but made a few
mistakes. Like anything its a learning process getting the balance right.

Even as I write this I wonder if there is too much of me in here so you guys are free to interpret the 3 words too. Just pray first that you do it in The Spirit.

 

[corsair]

Short simple answer to the question; Yes, I understand or I wouldn’t have chosen the EF as my favorite Mass to attend.

 

[drforjc]

Yesterday I seen all the threads that were clearly a push on the Latin Mass and I finally decided it was time to enter this discussion. I did my usual ; answering from my own beliefs and sense on the matter ; using only what I felt to be correct and what little information and experience I had as I’m not a theologian or Scholar but im reasonably bright. As always when i’m taking a stand now I often wonder am I arguing this for personal reasons and could I be standing in the way of something Christ actualy wants in his Church. When I get there my only answer is to pray the Rosary and wait for an answer.
Well I believe I got the answer this morning so I felt like sharing it with you guys.

I’m about to go on a journey for a week ( break ) and was looking at what to pack. I noticed a pile of books stuffed in the beside locker with the rest of the junk so I checked to see if there was one that I hadn’t finished. I found a small collins latin english dictionary.
I though what an intresting time to stumble on that but it can heardly be a for or against just a cue so I was prompted to go for my usual 3 message by opening the book at 3 random spots and pick the first word my eyes light on in each. Here is the english version of the 3 words

Unnatural--------Dictatorship----------Together

I thought the first 2 were so on but I thought the 3rd didn’t fit so I began to thing the finding the dictionary was the first message and therefore leave out the together but this didn’t sit well with me either. I tried a few ideas to make sense of it and in the end left it and got on with things. As I washed the dishes a little later it came to me what I believe it means

Unnatural- Listening to Mass in latin would not be in the natural tongue of the
audience and the whole experience would be unnatural for much of
the concregation now. Also yesterday I said in some reply that our
religion should be as natural as breathing to us and in another thread
I’ve started about loving God the Father I was also thinking the same about
him, he wants our love for him to be just as natural just as easy and just as
insticntively easy as breathing.

Dictatorship - Again I felt that although I can understand why some people may gain a
lot from the Latin mass and it should be made available widely enough
for these people it should not be at the expense of others. There was some
answers in threads suggesting that people should just have to learn Latin.
that Latin mass should have priority if the parish were short staffed and this
may not have been the intent of the writer it was clearly seen as
the underlying idea. NOT ALL latin mass supporters were in this mold.
I think we need to be carefull tat we are not trying to push our agenda so
hard that we are trying to Dictate to others.

Together - The word I thought of leaving out but couldn’t turned out to be the most
important in my mind. In this world of trouble and strife ; where there rages
civil unrest through so many nations and organisations we the catholic
church have a duty to stay together. We cannot let our individual
preferances and personal ideas become a source of friction when none
is needed. We need to work together to ensure that everyone can
WORSHIP CHRIST IN THE MASS in the way they feel most comfortable
and natural to them. If a parish has the resources to be able to put on the
Latin mass I say why not, providedit is done in a way that retains Unity and
commitment to the mass for all. As far as those people who maybe have
pushed some of the Mass service so far as to make me cringe at times.
Those are good people who may be on the right track too but made a few
mistakes. Like anything its a learning process getting the balance right.

Even as I write this I wonder if there is too much of me in here so you guys are free to interpret the 3 words too. Just pray first that you do it in The Spirit.

Not sure why we should trust your “3” method. Anyone else could duplicate it and come up with totally different results. Plus, you are projecting your own interpretion according to your own admitted bias against Latin.

If Liturgy is not to contain the element of “mystery,” why do refer to Christ’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection as the “Paschal Mystery?” Why does the Ordinary Form include the words “In order to prepare ourselves to celebrate these sacred mysteries…?”

I think if you study patristic writings on the Sacred Liturgy you will come to see that the Fathers always looked at the liturgy with a sense of awe and mystery.
We will not know God as He is until the next world.

 

[Warrenton]

? Even in the vernacular Mass, I have absolutely no idea what’s really going on.

I was going to respond until I read this post. There is really nothing I can add. It says it all.

 

[Warrenton]

he wants our love for him to be just as natural just as easy and just asinsticntively easy as breathing.

Let me start by saying that I agree with your post in general. While I prefer to attend TLM, I don’t mind other people attending the Novus Ordo, nor do I seek to have the N.O. abolished.

However, I am uncertain about the idea that I quoted from your thread. It seems to me that our religion is neither easy nor instinctive. BEcause of our fallen nature, what is easy and instinctive is often bad. That, I think, is why the scriptures talk about working out our salvation in fear and trembling, and of taking up a cross, and disregarding our life in order that we might keep it. The difficulty explains why Christ told us to let the dead bury the dead, and that we would have to foresake mother and father and family and friends for His sake.

These are all ways of acknowledging the fact that much of the Christian’s life is suffering. Blessed are you who weep and mourn…

For those who do not find loving and obeying the Lord a strugggle, I am grateful - it is a blessing!

For me however, the Latin mass reflects the reality of my faith better than the New Mass, and I am happy that both spiritualities find recognition now.

 

[Lormar]

Yes.

 

[TrueLight]

Well y’all. You can bet I’m going to be completely lost come holy week. I plan on attending mass on good Friday and Easter, as well as attend the Easter vigil.

Are those services completely different? Is there an order of the mass printed somewhere?

The Easter vigil and Easter day mass will be EF while the good Friday will be OF.

 

[Kouyate42]

I believe that God does not want to be a MYSTERY to us and he sent his SON among us so he would be known to us through CHRIST who also did not speak latin.

I’m willing to say that this is wrong. it’s likely that Jesus could speak anything up to four languages, including Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek. Looking at the area around Nazareth, there were many Greek-speaking people living there, and being able to speak more than one language wasn’t considered unusual. We also know from the Bible (Matthew 8 and then John 18) that Jesus spoke to both a Roman centurion and Pontius Pilate, who likely didn’t know Aramaic, but likely knew both Latin and Greek, as Greek was a second language for any educated Roman citizen, or indeed some people’s first.

Also, when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman, it is worth noting that the Samaritans did not speak Aramaic, but Hebrew. He was still able to talk to her without issue.

Then consider the nature of Judaism. Being Jewish means learning, studying and reading the Torah, and we know that Jesus did this in the Temple. The Torah is in Hebrew, and even non-observant Jews know the most basic elements of the Hebrew language, and certainly for a devout Jew like Jesus, knowing Hebrew was a must, especially in the theological debates which we know Jesus took part in at the age of 12 in the Temple at Jerusalem, amazing people with his understanding of the texts.

The Roman Catholic Church came from Rome, and it can only be expected that the offical language of early Christian Rome, Latin, was then used for the rites.

 

[thirddec]

believe that God does not want to be a MYSTERY to us and he sent his SON among us so he would be known to us through CHRIST who also did not speak latin.

as i explained in a later post; this was an error on my part as what I meant to say did not speak latin in his day to day preaching and living to and with his brethern and the public at large.

sorry for any confusion

 

[TrueLight]

believe that God does not want to be a MYSTERY to us and he sent his SON among us so he would be known to us through CHRIST who also did not speak latin.

as i explained in a later post; this was an error on my part as what I meant to say did not speak latin in his day to day preaching and living to and with his brethern and the public at large.

sorry for any confusion

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not like the homily is in Latin.

Also, I’m a lot more comfortable in the Latin mass then I was before. My discomfort was mostly because I didn’t’ know what to respond and when to genuflect, sit and stand. Having a missalette helps a lot.

I’ll tell you something. When I go to an OF mass, I am sort of lost too even if it is in English. I also have to learn the responses and when to sit, stand, genuflect.

For example, in the EF mass that I attend, we kneel during the Sanctus. In the OF mass that I attend as well, we kneel after the Sanctus.

So I don’t think the primary difficulty is in understanding is the Latin itself. If you are not used to any order of
Catholic mass, it will take a little time to adjust.

 

[thirddec]

Not sure why we should trust your “3” method. Anyone else could duplicate it and come up with totally different results. Plus, you are projecting your own interpretion according to your own admitted bias against Latin.

No they couldn’t duplicate it as it was a total “fluke” (maybe ) that I should find the latin english dictionary after praying the night before over the issue of whether I should take sides on the debate at all . I was concerned in case that it was only from personal bias over greater good. So check again the last line in the post.

Even as I write this I wonder if there is too much of me in here so you guys are free to interpret the 3 words too. Just pray first that you do it in The Spirit.

So take up my challege ; pray the rosary with the intention of having the wisdom of the Holy Spirit guide you in interpreting the words. Or for the Holy Spirit to Guide you in the discussion if you doubt what I say happened.

 

[shinytoy]

I was raised in the Latin Mass, have attended for the last 15 years, and I still feel an aura of mystery surrounding it. I thought that that’s what it’s intended to be. And there is always something to learn, especially if you’re studying the language of the Church.

i agree. i can follow parts of it, the responses etc, but dont understand most of it and like it that way,. though i could follow it in the missal, i prefer to contemplate and pray.

 

[thirddec]

I just asked my mum 70’s from a pious rural community in Ireland; does she remember the Latin mass. She said yes. I asked her did she understand what was going on; she said no so the younger people just used the Rosary crucifixes to cut their names into seats and try to chat to their mates while the priest with his back to them was getting on with it. I asked what about the adults. She said the all sat saying the rosary as the priest kep’t doing his thing. The women all on one side of church ; men on other but a great collection of men at the back of the church chattting to each other as the priest got in with it. So I asked her how would she compare things now; well she said all the rosary beads are gone in mass and people are watching thee priest. So maybe you guys are right lets get back to the gold old days. She does concede that if she goes to Latin mass now she does find it nice but thinks this could be nostalgia. Remember the older people of these congregation were people who as children could have been shot for going to mass so were faithfull to their beliefs.

 

[drforjc]

“thirddec”
There is a good post right now at Fr. Z’s blog www.wdtprs.com/blog
entitled ‘“It is possible to fully understand the Mass.” …NOT.’ that speaks to your position. In particular I recommend the comments by Traductora (4/14 1:12 pm) and Thomas G (4/14 2:48 pm).

 

[shinytoy]

guys

here is a short course which teaches you enough latin to follow the mass. it is aimed at catholics only learning latin to follow the tridentine mass, so all the verbs and stuff it teaches you are religious ones. to me this is better than learning the latin mass by rote, since you can understand the Gospel read in latin etc.

lms.org.uk/resources/latin scroll to the bottom and its the one called Simplicissimus.

as it is published by the latin mass society it is only for catholics and no meant as a general intro to latin.

here is a sample unit lms.org.uk/resources/simplicissimus-unit-1

it also covers pronounciation for those interested in singing at the mass

 

[thirddec]

“thirddec”
There is a good post right now at Fr. Z’s blog www.wdtprs.com/blog
entitled ‘“It is possible to fully understand the Mass.” …NOT.’ that speaks to your position. In particular I recommend the comments by Traductora (4/14 1:12 pm) and Thomas G (4/14 2:48 pm).

thank you ; I found it and I do understand the Issues; Latin - English - whatever wont always translate easily but the concepts do. I was looking at how street names in Irish/English sign deal with that issue. My problem is with the idea that Latin is the proper form of the mass to start with Just because it was made so at watever date and therefore Latin is also the Sacred language of the Church.

Does that mean that the Original Masses upto the time Latin was made the Official Mass language all wrong. Is Gods language not the language of the Heart. When mystics try to describe God; Heaven: Hell ; Angels etc do they say oh I can explain it better in LATIN; no they say words cant describe it it is felt but cannot be described.

Without trying to belittle the topic but to me as I said before in one of the many threads on Latin mass to me this just reminds me of the Titanic; The band playing on didnt stop the ship sinking and Latin mass wont stop the Church disintegrating. Rather than so much intellectual vigour being spent on reviving some sort of mythical Golden age of Catholism we need to face the fact that a bigger issue in the church is not what mass to say or what language to say it in but WHO is going to say it. We need priests more than we need the Latin mass and we can only achieve this in a strong unified Church. The first Mass wasn’t a very elaborate affair. It was a passover meal like that being celebrated all over Israel at the same time in various rooms and simple houses. Bread and wine and Christ and his apostles. Thats how simple the First Mass was and Im sure it stayed relatively simple for a long time.

Peter the first Pope seemed to understand the need to change Traditions and move forward he often seemed to be acting like the peacemaker in these Trad / Liberal debates in his time but mostly he changed anything except the basic teachings and beliefs of the church.

The Church like everthing in creation changes and should change ; even Rocks change; so long as She holds true to here Core teachings and Beliefs we can all look forward to a real Golden Age in the Future when Christ comes again; not in the past. But its our job to maintain the Church through this troubled times we all face so she can hold as many souls for Christ as she can. This can only achieve by unity and by focusing all our energy on the real and present dangers to the Church. How satan must love any divisions or conficts he can start that prevents us from seeing whats important.

Surely the topic at the top of the list should be where will we find the Priests of the future. If we have enough priests we can have Latin masses; long masses; short masses; swahili masses but for all our sakes lets hope there are masses.

 

[InquisitorMax]

The Latin Mass is the bridge between Heaven and Earth: the mystic realm and the mundane.

Waving one’s hands about, figuratively speaking, and saying “Why can’t we all get long?” adds zero to the discussion.

“Jesus Loves Us, wants unity and therefore let’s not argue for the Latin Mass” is a non-argument within the bounds of this forum.