Few questions to my Orthodox friends.

[Miriam1947]

Then why even have a discussion here?

Your assumption is incorrect. There are many things pre-schism that we do not agree on. That is the thing I was talking about, even though we seemingly talk about the same thing, our understanding of it is fundamentally different even before the schism. When was the schism anyway? East and West has had a building animosity since the Council of Nicaea, and there was intercommunion up until the Fall of Constantinople.

Let me give you one example, we both believe in Apostolic Succession and this is something that has been part of our faith from the beginning. But we do not agree on what Apostolic Succession means. Catholic believe in the mechanical application of the Sacrament where a validly ordained bishop can validly ordain a man regardless if that bishop is in union with the Pope or not. This is why you believe that Old Catholics to this day are valid priests. The Orthodox do not believe that. If a bishop leaves the Church, he ceases being a bishop. He can’t ordain validly.

Let’s take another example, marriage. We don’t believe marriage end with death.

We can go on and on, there are plenty of fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Saying that the doctrine existed pre-schism does not guarantee that we believe it in the same way. What I have found in my own study of the matter, and I read a few books on this which aided my conversion, is that there is a LOT of difference even with the pre-schism faith. The Filioque and Papal Supremacy is just the proverbial needle that broke the camel’s back, but before that there has already been a heavy load of issues there.

Do all of the Orthodox churches believe exactly the same way?

 

[pablope]

Toll Houses is a theological opinion that to this day is very controversial. It is not doctrine or dogma, there are notable theologians who subscribe to it and there are others who reject it.

There is no on in the OC who definitely define what toll houses are?

That is the thing, know nothing about the exact mechanisms of after life. The one I described, at least by my reading and study, is the common accepted belief. Anything beyond that is speculation or opinion, and yes there are plenty of those.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do all of the Orthodox churches believe exactly the same way?

Which one? In all things doctrinal, we agree 100%. In non-doctrinal things, we are free to disagree as long as we don’t try to pretend they are doctrinal.

 

[chimo]

The particular judgment damns those who die outside of a state of grace, and that damnation is eternal. It is impossible for the prayers of the living to save a person who has died and been sentenced to Hell.

You are correct. When a person dies their wills become permanently fixed at death. Depending on what state of grace you are at this fixing of the will, determines your eternity. If you are in a state of hell at death then because of the will being fixed your eternity will also be hell because of the way the will cannot alter its state once it is fixed. If you are still in a state of Purgatory at death then God will continue your Purgatory into the next life until appropriate Graces are given to you to receive the necessary state of Heaven. God only continues what is already there (at the moment of death). Even though the will is permanently fixed at death the Purgatory state will always have that movement towards a better state. However it is only the state of hell that cannot be improved once the will is fixed. The only time someone who is in a state of hell that can be improved is when they are still living on earth. For instance someone praying for an individual in this state can ask God to save such a soul. As long as this person is still living the possibility of improvement is always there. Why for instance a person cannot change after death if they are in a state of hell even though their will is fixed may have to do with their disposition they have within. The condition of someone’s soul may have to do more with their disposition and attitude after death. Even after death I wondered why can’t God save a particular soul that is in a state of hell. It may have to do with parameters. God if He gave this possibility to service people who are in a state of hell after death will have to deal with people sinning for eternity. Since God put parameters to our lives by fixing our wills at death then He would not have to deal with us sinning forever. The choice then is yours for the taking. If you are foolish in this life don’t expect any consideration from God in the next life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is no on in the OC who definitely define what toll houses are?

There is no basis in Scripture or with the Church Fathers. There is a claim that it is, but that is an ongoing discussion. But it would have to be aligned with something that has already been believed since day 1. If they can’t do that, then this will be rejected.

I think the CC has not exactly defined the purification process, only that there is a purification process. Read the link I provided, there is lots there.

We don’t even go that far as to say there is a Purgatory. But in Orthodox belief, when sins are forgiven, they are forgiven. We are not to be subject to a painful purgation for things God has already forgiven. We do not believe that those in heaven are all equally “spotless”. Theosis is an eternal process where we are approaching God. As time goes by we become more and more like God, but since God is eternal the process never ends. So there is an every increasing experience of joy in union with God. Also that we are all not in the same “level”. Some may be closer to God than others, based on their life on earth. But we are forever growing in God, so there is nothing wrong with that. You can even say that purgation may even be part of the process of Theosis, but it is not a painful fiery process and people already experience God right there and then. In fact, Theosis can begin on earth.

Agreed.

I do not think we can alter our state, either it is in heaven or in hell. In the final general judgement, the consequences of our actions will be known, but not our state.

Nothing is impossible with God, and God is all merciful. I don’t think it is even for us to say what God can or cannot do. No, we cannot alter our state, but others can pray for us and hope for God’s mercy.

Read the link, as I said.

From the link:

That’s why purgatory is so incomprehensible. That’s why it seems so wrong, because it feels so right to have a kind of welfare scheme. No. God is not some politician buying votes by promising all kinds of little goodies. I mean not that welfare is not essential in our society. Let’s assume that it is needed. But ultimately God does not want to make us completely dependent in a sense of being helpless. God wants to father sons and daughters who will grow up and mature and be strong in faith, hope and charity, filled with wisdom, filled with spiritual strength to love others and to sacrifice themselves for others. This is all of what purgatory implies.

Well, we don’t completely disagree with what is said here, but we still don’t see why Purgatory has to be the solution to this. The general understanding of how salvation is effected is indeed different between East and West. Purgatory certainly does not fit the Eastern understanding of salvation.

 

[dzheremi]

We pray for the dead so that they can be released from purgatory.

But isn’t purgatory where they need to go to be cleansed, according to the rest of your post? So then the prayers are essentially for God to hurry up the process or something?

If one is judged as worthy of heaven, but may not be totally rid of the vestiges of sin, purgatory is the cleansing, prior to going to heaven.

We too believe that there must be a cleansing prior to entering heaven, but we have not dogmatically defined what it is, and we certainly reject the RC concept for purgatory. HH Pope Shenouda even wrote a whole book listing all the reasons to reject purgatory, though I have not read it myself.

I think I have read before that Orthodox do have a concept of purgatory called “toll houses”…so correct me if I am wrong on this.

This idea developed in the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church, not the non-Chalcedonian. You’d have to ask them about it. From what little I understand of it, it is far from universally accepted, not at all dogmatized, and differs from the RC purgatory in several ways. The one speaker I have heard talk about it (which was incidental to me, since again we in the COC don’t have this idea) mentioned that it is a very fast process (cf. RC purgatory, which is measured in literal units of time, often in years), and that it is conceived of as sort of passing through “gates”, where each gate deals with a particular sin (this is all in Fr. Andrew Damick’s Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcast on AFR, if anyone wants to look it up), rather than the RC purgatory which has fire and all this stuff. I don’t know. Both ideas seem odd to me, but what do I know. I figure this is nothing to get upset about because unlike the RCC, the EO have not made it a required belief of all communicants. It is an opinion, essentially. (Please, anyone who is EO, feel free to correct this if I’ve gotten anything wrong; I try my best to speak for only me or only the COC, to the extent that the OO and EO differ, but this is not an area I know much about, since we don’t have toll houses.)

 

[ConstantineTG]

We too believe that there must be a cleansing prior to entering heaven, but we have not dogmatically defined what it is, and we certainly reject the RC concept for purgatory. HH Pope Shenouda even wrote a whole book listing all the reasons to reject purgatory, though I have not read it myself.

Sounds like an interesting book, do you know what the title is?

 

[pablope]

But isn’t purgatory where they need to go to be cleansed, according to the rest of your post? So then the prayers are essentially for God to hurry up the process or something?

To be released…am not sure, but yes, ultimately, it is God who decides. Our prayers help.

We too believe that there must be a cleansing prior to entering heaven, but we have not dogmatically defined what it is, and we certainly reject the RC concept for purgatory.

 

[aemcpa]

To understand it, since we are not outside of time, we associate time with it…but since God and purgatory are outside of time, there is to time associated with it. A thousand years there may mean an hour to us…so the RC, as far as I know has not defined the “time”.