Few will make it to Heaven?

[theoda]

If we accept the private revelation included in this sermon, then it is truly a bleak picture. Based on the ratio given here, a mere 350 000 people out of the world’s 7 000 000 000 will be saved. That’s less than the number of parishes in the world. That would mean that in thousands upon thousands of parishes EVERY single parishioner is damned and in the rest one, out of the thousands of parish members, might manage to get by. Even if you just go by the number of people who receive “the last rites”, the number of saved would be much, much, much higher than that. Are we to doubt the grace of the sacraments? Are we do doubt the absolution given during Last Rites? Are we to doubt the apostolic pardon?

Are we to doubt St. Leonard of Port Maurice? Are we to doubt a person in heaven? Are we to doubt the theologians and doctors of the church?

In the past, an even smaller ratio was saved. 8 were saved from Noah’s ark, and only 4 were saved from the entire city of Sodom.

Even if you don’t beieve the private revelation, which you don’t have to, the rest of the sermon still proves few are saved.

Also, just because if you deem something inconceivable doesn’t make it not true

 

[agnes_therese]

Are we to doubt St. Leonard of Port Maurice? Are we to doubt a person in heaven? Are we to doubt the theologians and doctors of the church?

If I have to choose between St. Leonard and the New Testament, I’m sticking with the New Testament, thank you. I get no thrill from meditating on great masses of people being condemned to hell.

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t understand Christianity’s obsession with Hell. Hell, when you think about it, is impossible for many reasons.

It is very possible.

Suppose you go to your best friend’s house. You and your friend get along swimmingly and have lots of fun together. That’s like heaven.

Now, go to the same house, same situation, but you’re with your worst enemy, who you hate. That’s hell.

Those who love God, will be with the one who they love for all eternity (that is heaven)
Those who hate God, will be with the one they hate for all eternity (that is hell)

Another way of looking at it:
If you’re near a fireplace and you love the warmth, it is like heaven.
If you’re near a fireplace and you hate the warmth, it is like hell.

Same fireplace. Same flames. Same warmth. Different reaction.

yes, God is everywhere. And you really can’t get away from God. But remember, the same fiery love of God (fireplace) is going to either keep you warm (because you love him) or will burn you (because you hate him).

 

[twf]

Are we to doubt St. Leonard of Port Maurice? Are we to doubt a person in heaven? Are we to doubt the theologians and doctors of the church?

In the past, an even smaller ratio was saved. 8 were saved from Noah’s ark, and only 4 were saved from the entire city of Sodom.

Even if you don’t beieve the private revelation, which you don’t have to, the rest of the sermon still proves few are saved.

Also, just because if you deem something inconceivable doesn’t make it not true

How can those stats not fill you with despair? It would mean of the 100 000+ sincere Catholics on this very forum, only 4 or 5 of us will be saved. It would mean that of the millions of Catholics who regularly confess, the vast majority are invalidly receiving absolution. I find it hard to have so little faith in the sacraments. Imperfect contrition is sufficient to receive absolution and I have to assume that most have at least imperfect contrition. If we are teaching people that in the average parish every last person is damned (as the number who will be saved is, as I noted, based on this revelation far lower tuna wren the number of parishes in the world)…it would seem holy mass and confession are empty gestures for all but a handful of Catholics. I can’t accept that. It seems to make a mockery of the sacrament of penance in particular. Do the majority of Catholics make regular good confessions? No. But I am sure the number is still in the millions.

 

[Sarcelle]

It is very possible.

Suppose you go to your best friend’s house. You and your friend get along swimmingly and have lots of fun together. That’s like heaven.

Now, go to the same house, same situation, but you’re with your worst enemy, who you hate. That’s hell.

Those who love God, will be with the one who they love for all eternity (that is heaven)
Those who hate God, will be with the one they hate for all eternity (that is hell)

Another way of looking at it:
If you’re near a fireplace and you love the warmth, it is like heaven.
If you’re near a fireplace and you hate the warmth, it is like hell.

Same fireplace. Same flames. Same warmth. Different reaction.

yes, God is everywhere. And you really can’t get away from God. But remember, the same fiery love of God (fireplace) is going to either keep you warm (because you love him) or will burn you (because you hate him).

Yes.

Who was it that said the very flames of hell are fueled by God’s love?

 

[twf]

How can those stats not fill you with despair? It would mean of the 100 000+ sincere Catholics on this very forum, only 4 or 5 of us will be saved. It would mean that of the millions of Catholics who regularly confess, the vast majority are invalidly receiving absolution. I find it hard to have so little faith in the sacraments. Imperfect contrition is sufficient to receive absolution and I have to assume that most have at least imperfect contrition. If we are teaching people that in the average parish every last person is damned (as the number who will be saved is, as I noted, based on this revelation far lower tuna wren the number of parishes in the world)…it would seem holy mass and confession are empty gestures for all but a handful of Catholics. I can’t accept that. It seems to make a mockery of the sacrament of penance in particular. Do the majority of Catholics make regular good confessions? No. But I am sure the number is still in the millions.

I didn’t intend to have a “grin” next to this post - not sure how that happened. This is not a light topic.

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes.

Who was it that said the very flames of hell are fueled by God’s love?

No idea

 

[JoyintheCross]

I have had a difficult time accepting this idea, having read of these low populations of saved. I just can’t believe that vast numbers of people, Catholics especially, die in mortal sin. That is the only thing that can separate us from God right?

Surely, there are people who knowingly reject Christ and His Catholic Church. They often do this either because it is too hard to follow the rules, or they reject the belief of Hell. Sometimes, there are what are called ‘Cafeteria Catholics’, who pick and choose what to believe out of the Catechism. And this seems to me dangerous. And these are the attitudes we must stay away from.

How to work out our salvation? Do good works. Receive the sacraments, pray often, and intend to seek confession as soon as we can when we find ourselves in mortal sin (say an Act of Contrition, pray nightly for God’s mercy, and avoid communion until you can get to confession, but make sure you get there. And if you die before you could make it, I’m certain God will have mercy on you, knowing you strongly intended on going.). I’d say receive confession as often as one can for even venial offenses for extra graces. And I would get into the habit of asking God’s mercy in prayer for even venial offenses, as it teaches one humility, and brings us to understand, that while not deadly to the soul, venial sin is still offensive to our Lord. When we ask forgiveness for our venial offenses, it also teaches us to obey out of love.

(P.S.) I wish I prayed to our Blessed Mother more often. It is something I would like to do more. After all, she is our Mother, and our Queen. If not a full Rosary, then at least a Hail Mary every night. And her prayers are powerful in helping us achieve salvation.)

God bless,
Mike

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t understand Christianity’s obsession with Hell.

Vicki,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains nearly nearly all of what Catholic’s profess. It is about 2300 paragraphs long (but very readable).

The topic of hell is here.

It is only 5 of the 2300 paragraphs.

Now, in that light, one could argue: Catholics are not obsessed with hell. Other Christian denominations? Perhaps.

It’s also rather important to understand we were created to spend eternity in God’s presence. This is the true definition of happiness. But we can reject this gift from God. When we do this, and it is our choice to do so, we spend eternity removed from his presence. This is hell.

So those five paragraphs, plus those on heaven itself are extremely important for us to understand and reflect on.

 

[twf]

Vicki,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains nearly nearly all of what Catholic’s profess. It is about 2300 paragraphs long (but very readable).

The topic of hell is here.

It is only 5 of the 2300 paragraphs.

Now, in that light, one could argue: Catholics are not obsessed with hell. Other Christian denominations? Perhaps.

It’s also rather important to understand we were created to spend eternity in God’s presence. This is the true definition of happiness. But we can reject this gift from God. When we do this, and it is our choice to do so, we spend eternity removed from his presence. This is hell.

So those five paragraphs, plus those on heaven itself are extremely important for us to understand and reflect on.

Yet we have Catholics on this very site suggesting that a mere 3 out of every 60 000 people will be saved… that seems like both an obsession with hell and a most terrifying prospect that essentially renders the sacrament of penance nearly useless. I don’t know what to make of these private revelations that did indeed seem to enjoy great popularity in the past.

 

[ready]

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Matthew 7:13-14

How can this be taken to mean anything other than that <50% of people will go to Hell?

Few means less than 50%. Few people truly renounce the world, so I have no problem at all accepting that few enter the narrow gate, especially because so many Saints and Church Fathers have taught the fewness of the saved. God bless you.

 

[Porknpie]

Yet we have Catholics on this very site suggesting that a mere 3 out of every 60 000 people will be saved…

That indeed is a very low number. And it is only an opinion. Somewhat positively: the Church makes no statement about a number in hell but it does recognize the existence of it. Would then God create a place and leave it empty? We can’t count on scripture or Tradition to support this idea. Somewhat negatively: the OT prefigures the NT is so many ways so I can see where one can use reason to come to a conclusion that very few are saved. Likewise, one can reason and come to a conclusion that a great many are saved. We simply don’t know. But - and this is important: we do not, the most assured way to be saved is to be Catholic and receive all the sacraments instituted by Christ.

that seems like both an obsession with hell

I don’t read anything obsessive here. Just speculation on what may be. There’s a big difference between speculation and obsession. I speculate that my wife will come home with a pint of peanut butter and chocolate from Baskin Robbins but I’m only obsessive about eating it. I’m not obsessive about whether she will do so or not.

and a most terrifying prospect that essentially renders the sacrament of penance nearly useless.

One has to go to the sacrament to be cleansed of serious sin. If you do go, it is 100%, guaranteed effective in restoring sanctifying grace. It’s the best guarantee in the world based on the Word of God. The key is GO.

I don’t know what to make of these private revelations that did indeed seem to enjoy great popularity in the past.

They are just that, private. Believing in them is not necessary.

 

[theoda]

If I have to choose between St. Leonard and the New Testament, I’m sticking with the New Testament, thank you. I get no thrill from meditating on great masses of people being condemned to hell.

Have you read the New Testament?

Ever heard of “Many are called,few are chosen”

 

[theoda]

I find it interesting that the only argument that many are saved is that of inconceivability. Just because you don’t understand how something is possible, or cant imagine something being possible doesn’t make it not true.

Here are you options:

You can agree with the doctors and the fathers of the church who agree that few are saved.

Or you can refuse to believe the obvious truth because you value your opinion over that of the doctors and fathers of the church like St.Thomas Aquinas.

The truth could not be more clear. Why do so many people think he doctors and theologians of the church are wrong?

Again, few were saved in the past before. Think of how many people were saved by the Ark and how many were saved out of the entire city of Sodom.

 

[theoda]

Let me also get his clear: When the church fathers say that few are saved, they are talking about few among Catholics. They thought it would be obvious that few are saved among people since he majority are Christians. There is no salvation outside the church. But even this principle is ignored by so many Catholics today.

“Many are called,few are chosen”-Mark 20:16

“The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools are infinite.”-Ecclesiastes 1:15

"If the just man shall scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly sinner appear?-1 Peter 4:18

 

[Porknpie]

The truth could not be more clear. Why do so many people think he doctors and theologians of the church are wrong?

Easy answer Theoda. I believe you know what it is.

God is love and desires all to be saved.

That’s why people speculate that many, many could be saved. Even if it appears to be in opposition to scripture in some places.

 

[BobCatholic]

Yet we have Catholics on this very site suggesting that a mere 3 out of every 60 000 people will be saved… that seems like both an obsession with hell and a most terrifying prospect that essentially renders the sacrament of penance nearly useless. I don’t know what to make of these private revelations that did indeed seem to enjoy great popularity in the past.

It is not the sacrament of penance that is “nearly useless”

It is the Grace of God, which is plentiful but yet fragile.

It is so fragile, it is broken by one mortal sin.

We’re in a war against the Devil, and our bullet proof jacket is fragile, made of glass or paper.

 

[Another_Andrew]

I find it interesting that the only argument that many are saved is that of inconceivability. Just because you don’t understand how something is possible, or cant imagine something being possible doesn’t make it not true.

Here are you options:

You can agree with the doctors and the fathers of the church who agree that few are saved.

Or you can refuse to believe the obvious truth because you value your opinion over that of the doctors and fathers of the church like St.Thomas Aquinas.

The truth could not be more clear. Why do so many people think he doctors and theologians of the church are wrong?

Again, few were saved in the past before. Think of how many people were saved by the Ark and how many were saved out of the entire city of Sodom.

The Church teaches that God is infinitely merciful. That means that everyone who has any desire to go to heaven will necessarily go there, after they suffer through whatever degree of purgation they deserve. There are few people, who, upon seeing the reality of God would not want to be with him. If the Church teaches the truth about God being infinitely merciful, then only those who do not want to be with God will condemn themselves to hell.

“Inconceivability” is a highly simplistic summation of that line of reasoning. God is either love and will allow everyone into heaven who wants to be there (after purgatory, of course), or he is not love, and the whole Christian religion is a farce.

 

[ready]

To the previous post-er,

Just wanting to get into Heaven is not enough for one to get one into Heaven; one must want to get into Heaven *badly enough * for one to get into Heaven. God bless you.

 

[Another_Andrew]

If the Church does indeed teach that God is infinitely merciful (and I may be incorrect that this is the case), then he will let anyone into heaven who wants to be there. They might have to spend 10,000 years in purgatory, but they will still get in. That is, of course, if God’s love is infinite and unconditional and he wants us to be with him in heaven.

If God’s mercy is finite and his love conditional, then in that respect he may be thought of as little greater than a human, which doesn’t seem right.