R
ready
Guest
Wow, I hope so! Was Ven. Jospeh made “Venerable” before Vatican II?
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R
ready
Guest
I just posted a response, and it got lost. Here’s my second try:They are, to my knowledge. Many priests have written in favour of his works. Ven. Joseph (d. 1728) also put forward this thesis in writing, and no theologians disagreed with him. It seems that St. Francis de Sales and St. Mechtilde were of the same belief.
Wow! Was Ven. Joseph pronounced “Venerable” before Vatican II?
L
littlestsouls2
Guest
I’m not sure, but it’s quite likely.I just posted a response, and it got lost. Here’s my second try:
Wow! Was Ven. Joseph pronounced “Venerable” before Vatican II?
R
ready
Guest
Great! Do you know the name of this thesis of which you speak that was accepted by the theologians of Ven. John’s day and left unrefuted by them? I’d like to read it, if possible. You see, so many canonized Saints have taught the fewness of the saved that it seems a miracle that Ven. John’s thesis was unrefuted and accepted by the theologians of his day, which makes me want to read it very much. God bless you!I’m not sure, but it’s quite likely.
R
ready
Guest
To be honest with you I’d only feel comforted if he was pronounced “Venerable” before V2. I’ll find out if he was, by doing a good Google search.I’m not sure, but it’s quite likely.
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littlestsouls2
Guest
I don’t, unfortunately. His writings are in Latin:Great! Do you know the name of this thesis of which you speak that was accepted by the theologians of Ven. John’s day and left unrefuted by them? I’d like to read it, if possible. You see, so many canonized Saints have taught the fewness of the saved that it seems a miracle that Ven. John’s thesis was unrefuted and accepted by the theologians of his day, which makes me want to read it very much. God bless you!
books.google.com.au/books?id=6TQ1Sf0qwbsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=fray+josep+de+sant+benet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QHLMVL2TIsHW8gWkjIGICg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=fray%20josep%20de%20sant%20benet&f=false
I should have been more clear earlier; when I said that no theologians disagreed with Ven. Joseph’s thesis, I only meant that they did not see in it anything contrary to Church teaching.
I have e-mailed someone in Montserrat to ask them when Fray Josep was declared Venerable. I will let you know when/if I receive a response.
There are a number of theologians who also believe that the greater number of Catholics will be saved. These include: Suarez, Cardinal Pallavicinus, Father Buonpensiere, Steyaert, D. Elias Méric, Tanquerey, Sylvester, Carthagena, Granadus, and Franciscus de Christo. Many of these theologians died centuries ago.
Here is a light-hearted read that you might enjoy: archive.org/stream/jesusallgood00gall#page/108/mode/2up
God bless.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Doesn’t the Catholic Church view the Jews as God’s Chosen People, along with recognizing them as being able to be saved through Judaism? If so, why would their teachings be of no interest?The Catholic Church is correct, you needn’t and shouldn’t look any further than the Catholic Church for theological answers. The Jewish religion is a false religion, it is not what it was before the coming of Christ. You really should stick to the Church Fathers, to the Doctors of the Church and to other Saints and accepted Catholic writers, Robert, and have nothing to do with Jewish works. You will only confuse yourself if you mix religious teachings, and will endanger your precious soul. God bless you.
R
ready
Guest
The Catholic Church has traditionally viewed Catholics as God’s Chosen People. The Jews WERE or USED TO BE His Chosen People, but now Catholics are. The perfidious Jews deny Jesus Christ as God ,and the Jews of Jesus’ times even had Him killed (Remember? Crucify Him! Crucify Him!) . Today perfidious Jews still deny Jesus Christ as God and Messiah. I am Hebrew myself, but very, very thankful to be Roman Catholic. God bless you.Doesn’t the Catholic Church view the Jews as God’s Chosen People, along with recognizing them as being able to be saved through Judaism? If so, why would their teachings be of no interest?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I do not think you have been keeping up with Pope Francis. I believe he still considers Jews to be God’s chosen people. Anyway, I posted this question to the Apologetics forum for (name removed by moderator)ut.The Catholic Church has traditionally viewed Catholics as God’s Chosen People. The Jews WERE or USED TO BE His Chosen People, but now Catholics are. The perfidious Jews deny Jesus Christ as God ,and the Jews of Jesus’ times even had Him killed (Remember? Crucify Him! Crucify Him!) . Today perfidious Jews still deny Jesus Christ as God and Messiah. I am Hebrew myself, but very, very thankful to be Roman Catholic. God bless you.
R
ready
Guest
Francis I is contradicting the traditional teaching of the Church, and is scandalizing souls, like yours. Believe me, you will lose your soul if you do not keep the traditions of the Church as St. Paul exhorts. God bless you.I do not think you have been keeping up with Pope Francis. I believe he still considers Jews to be God’s chosen people. Anyway, I posted this question to the Apologetics forum for (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
As far as, “But not everyone is saved”, how do you know?But not everyone is saved. God’s will isn’t being done.
Has the “final judgement” already been declared?
Didn’t Jesus ask us to pray for “God’s Will to be done” and actually taught us the words to pray for this?
Do you think that Jesus taught us this for nothing?
Concerning, “God’s will isn’t being done”, how can you say this?
Do you think that it is God’s Will that absolutely everything that everyone does is in lock-step with God’s Commandments or do you think that it is God’s Will that ALL BE SAVED, just as it is written?
Have you ever heard it said that Jesus took ALL of the SINS of ALL upon Himself on the cross?Take notice that people go to hell and God’s will for them to be saved did not come to fruition.
Have you ever heard it said that the “wages of sin” is death?
Do you think that it just might be possible to go to hell because of sin?
If Jesus took ALL SINS upon Himself and “paid the ransom”, could this mean that Jesus went to hell and went to death?
Jesus did more than many think and more than many think God capable of doing.
Sure he does, but unlike plenty of other people, I do not believe that satan is successful, as a matter of fact, I believe/think that satan is a loser, a sore loser, and that satan’s loss is total.Are you saying the devil doesn’t want to thwart God’s will?
Do you think that Jesus going to hell was “satan successfully thwarting God’s will” or do you think that it just might have been satan’s complete and total undoing and the crushing of satan’s power?Every person that goes to hell is satan successfully thwarting God’s will.
Doesn’t it say something about, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel”?
Who knows, maybe it came as just as much of a shock to satan as it did to humanity that God became One of us in the Incarnation, do you or anyone else have any thoughts concerning this?
Could be that many are BLIND to what God-Incarnate accomplished on the cross.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Kind of a shame, don’t you think, that you and many others think that God is a loser and that what God wants, is thwarted by satan and/or humanity?We want and God wants everyone to be saved. However, we know it won’t happen.
I’m having trouble finding the council that said it was a heresy however the bible says that on the Last Judgement that there will be some that are dammed. Remember when Jesus tells the wicked ones to depart into the fires of hell?
Again, God does have mercy on all of us, but some of us keep refusing to follow him.
I, personally, do not think/believe that God is a loser but I do think/believe that satan is a loser.
I will continue to pray for God’s Will to be done and continue to believe that God’s Will is for ALL TO BE SAVED.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
First off, these questions were not directed to me but I would like to make a comment.And again, how do you argue against the fact that every saint has believed that few are saved. Why don’t you believe in them?
You do NOT know that “every saint has believed that few are saved”, this is merely your opinion.
For that matter, neither you nor anyone else, except for God, knows just who all of the saints are.
And as far as, “Why don’t you believe in them?”, we are NOT called to believe in the saints but to believe in God.
Question, of all that you know of whatever saints that you know about, does absolutely everything that they have said, completely agree?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Please be careful in passing judgement on people, be they Jews or Pope.The Catholic Church has traditionally viewed Catholics as God’s Chosen People. The Jews WERE or USED TO BE His Chosen People, but now Catholics are. The perfidious Jews deny Jesus Christ as God ,and the Jews of Jesus’ times even had Him killed (Remember? Crucify Him! Crucify Him!) . Today perfidious Jews still deny Jesus Christ as God and Messiah. I am Hebrew myself, but very, very thankful to be Roman Catholic. God bless you.
There is a phrase from the Second Vatican Council that is essential: it says that God showed Himself to all men and rescues, first of all, the Chosen People. Since God is faithful to His promises, He did not reject them. The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People. Nowhere does it say: “You lost the game, now it is our turn.” It is a recognition of the People of Israel. That, I think, is the most courageous thing from Vatican II on the subject.
(Jorge M. Bergoglio and Abraham Skorka, On Heaven and Earth [New York: Image, 2013], p. 188)
R
ready
Guest
Robert, my ancestors on my father’s side are Sephardic (I am Portuguese Hebrew), and I judge no man rashly–I simply know the Church’s teaching is being contradicted when a person (be he a claimant to the Chair of Peter or a John Doe) says that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. Any true Catholic knows that they are no longer God’s chosen people and that Catholics now are. You are greatly being deceived by erroneous teaching and are putting your soul in grave danger by listening to strange teachings.Please be careful in passing judgement on people, be they Jews or Pope.
There is a phrase from the Second Vatican Council that is essential: it says that God showed Himself to all men and rescues, first of all, the Chosen People. Since God is faithful to His promises, He did not reject them. The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People. Nowhere does it say: “You lost the game, now it is our turn.” It is a recognition of the People of Israel. That, I think, is the most courageous thing from Vatican II on the subject.
(Jorge M. Bergoglio and Abraham Skorka, On Heaven and Earth [New York: Image, 2013], p. 188)
R
ready
Guest
What I meant by “I judge no man rashly” is that I did not judge any man rashly in my previous post. Contradicting previous magisterial teachings of the Church is gravely wrong.Robert, my ancestors on my father’s side are Sephardic (I am Portuguese Hebrew), and I judge no man rashly–I simply know the Church’s teaching is being contradicted when a person (be he a claimant to the Chair of Peter or a John Doe) says that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. Any true Catholic knows that they are no longer God’s chosen people and that Catholics now are. You are greatly being deceived by erroneous teaching and are putting your soul in grave danger by listening to strange teachings.
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Sirach2
Guest
“THE doctors and fathers of the church?” Do you know how many there are, and do you honestly believe they all held this belief? Or even small percentage of them? You speak out of personal private study that is obviously errant, in order to magnify your point beyond anyone being able to counter it. By your activity on this thread and others, it is utterly clear that you are hell-bent on demoralizing the faithful with this “good news.” Which, incidentally, is not the gospel (good news). Would you win folks to the faith by preaching hell and damnation, and letting them believe they haven’t a snowball’s chance in hell of being among the elect?You can agree with the doctors and the fathers of the church who agree that few are saved.
Or you can refuse to believe the obvious truth because you value your opinion over that of the doctors and fathers of the church like St.Thomas Aquinas.
Again, few were saved in the past before. Think of how many people were saved by the Ark and how many were saved out of the entire city of Sodom.
Hope is a primary theological virtue, but what you preach is despair as evidenced by some who are frightened by your posts. Yet you blatantly persist with overkill, monitoring every post to be sure that others do not overrule your ‘gospel.’
However, these few saints and doctors of the Church are not the Magisterium, and to rely on their alleged opinion is foolish, unless the Church fully teaches likewise. It is ludicrous to point to Old Testament examples of the flood, Sodom, etc., to further your objective. These folks did not have the benefit of the sacraments to strengthen them in walking uprightly, as in our dispensation of the New Testament. Neither those in Noah’s time, nor those in Sodom had received the 10 Commandments, and were pagans. Lot chose to dwell among them, by his own bad choice, but since God saved only his family does not merit a justification to teach that most people today will therefore be damned. Do you see how unorthodox this is?
What value do you see in promoting this with such rigor?
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Bill1940
Guest
God is infinitely merciful and just. We should not presume upon His mercy but work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Neither should we despair. Who are the saved? Not all priests, Popes and so on, but those who pray. As to private revelation, we are not obliged to believe them and shall not treat them as revelation tantamount to the Scriptures the last of which were penned in the First Century.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
You inadvertently judged the Jews as being condemned to Hell, and fail to respect the authority of the Church.What I meant by “I judge no man rashly” is that I did not judge any man rashly in my previous post. Contradicting previous magisterial teachings of the Church is gravely wrong.
CCC 839: The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.
When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish people, the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”(328); “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”(329)
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Tom_Baum
Guest
The Jews are the CHOSEN PEOPLE for the simple reason that God chose them.Robert, my ancestors on my father’s side are Sephardic (I am Portuguese Hebrew), and I judge no man rashly–I simply know the Church’s teaching is being contradicted when a person (be he a claimant to the Chair of Peter or a John Doe) says that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. Any true Catholic knows that they are no longer God’s chosen people and that Catholics now are. You are greatly being deceived by erroneous teaching and are putting your soul in grave danger by listening to strange teachings.
God not only chose them but God formed them since Abraham was the first Jew.
The Jews are still the CHOSEN PEOPLE.
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