Fiance went to strip club

[whatevergirl]

Norseman;

I was a virgin when I married, and I would never ever have considered ‘using it as leverage,’ to get a man, or to ‘wake a man up,’ or to ‘send a chill down a man’s spine.’ Yikes! It’s a grace, not a something we do…you are not better, and I wasn’t better than another, who had lost his/her virginity. It’s through God’s grace that I hung onto it…and there were many times of temptation. There is a passage in the Bible…where the one man in prayer looks up to God saying…‘Thank you that I’m not a sinner like those others.’ (basically that is what the gist was) The other man prayed…‘Forgive me Father, for I am a sinner.’ He was actually better off, than the one who was self righteous. I know that being a virgin is something to behold, and treasure–it is a gift from God. But, it is very wrong to look at others as though one is better then them, simply for being a virgin.

 

[diosa25]

I was going to make a new thread about this and maybe I will…but…

are there some Catholic couples who do not have these kinds of bachelor parties? I am against typical bachelor parties…

or any bachelor parties for that matter.

DH’s friends took him out for a day of beer and golf! That was it! My cousin threw me a “lingerie” party where all the girls bought me something cute to wear. No men involved there and no girls involved in DH’s party.

I don’t think I could marry a guy who consented to be one of thirty or forty guys whose crotch a stripper was paid to gyrate upon that night.

But that’s just me. The OP has stated that she won’t postpone or cancel the wedding. That’s her embarassment talking. I just hope we don’t see her here in five years with two kids, and a husband who still drinks to excess and pays strippers to gyrate on his crotch. Or worse…

There are mistakes, and there are character flaws…

I knew Dusky would chime in eventually with her words of wisdom! I totally agree with this last statement. Everything someone does that is a sin is not ALWAYS a mistake. And if they know it is bad…OF COURSE they are going to apologize profusely and feel bad about it. They knew it was a bad decision in the first place and then afterwards it feels that much worse! If he can’t stand up to the peer pressure now, what makes you think he will stand up to it later in any other situation. This was not just a magazine that was laying on the table at someone’s house that he glanced at, this was a REAL woman in his presence. And it’s not as if she was just passing by on the street. You have to go to the place, you have to pay to get in, you have to order the lady to give you the dance, and then you have to accidentally or mistakenly sit there for the entire dance and enjoy it…how many mistakes can you make in one night! I dont’ understand this at all. And then to use the excuse that you were drunk…well why are you getting drunk in the first place if you know you can’t control yourself when you do. That shows the character of a person right there to me.

Maybe God just gave you a glimpse of what you are really getting into and it seems most on here are saying to disregard it. I would think carefully about marrying someone who did this to me, espeically if they arleady knew how I felt about this issue in the first place. If he can disregard me for his friends BEFORE we are married, I don’t see how it would be easier to stand up for me AFTER. As someone said, “He was the same person before this incident as he was after”…but might I add, that he was the same person also DURING the incident, alcohol or no alcohol. I’m not saying this guy is a horrible person or judging him to Hell but I wouldn’t treat this situation so lightly. He should be forgiven but I would personally postpone the wedding. That is just what I would do and my opinion.

 

[Scanner]

Let me try to explain the “sociology of the bachelor party stripper” as best I can in my amateur way.

I didn’t want one at my party either. I would have rather played paint ball or some other male bonding activity. That’s not just idle talk; it’s absolutely true.

But the friends at the party exert pressue on the “Best Man” to be the bad guy and “hire a stripper/dancer” for the “good” of the groom’s “last fling.” (I am using the word “fling” liberally. . .doesn’t mean intercourse or sex)

It’s totally stupid, I know but that’s kind of the psychology/sociology of it.

I wish tradition would change for my boys. The whole thing is uncomfortable and embarrassing (also part of the sociology - to embarrass the groom and laugh at him).

When I was best man, luckily I was out of town at school so I missed that party. I think I would have totally respected the groom’s wishes one way or the other.

BTW, the last dancer I saw was 14 years ago at my bachelor party and that’s one temptation I do not face so don’t overread into it. Those places are disgusting and ungratifying. . .I don’t see the attraction other than maybe for a prank/joke to play on a boss, that sort of thing (a bad joke).

 

[JimG]

JimG and Norseman…
I can’t adequately explain how distasteful I find your posts.
Not only does it seem you find virginity the sole and most important thing in a person. Let me remind you though that chastity and virginity are not the same. The first is a crown you have earned through hard work… the second is a free gift from God.
Have any of you ever been in a very serious relationship as adults where the one you were with tempted you? If not, then you are really cheap in saying what you do. How easy it is for you!

Perhaps I didn’t make my point clearly. I wasn’t chastising the fiance for his lack of virginity or his past behavior. My point was that the OP has accepted him as he is now, and does not hold the past behavior against him. Yet she is making a very big deal out of this current slip, which by its nature is less serious than the past behavior. If she is having trouble forgiving this, what might that predict about her ability to forgive in the future? And spouses will always have something to forgive!

 

[Norseman82]

I can’t adequately explain how distasteful I find your posts.

If you think I sound distasteful, I find your mocking use of the words “holy” and “pious” even more distasteful, since we are all called to holiness. Zaccheus (sp) offered to make amends fourfold, as I recall; he did not get sore, if you recall the gospel story.

And in case you dont believe in the CLEANSING power of Confession

Confession only cleanses SPIRITUALLY. It does not remove the temporal consequences. Barring a miracle, it does not cure STDs or make one “unpregnant” or reassemble on aborted baby in the trash bin and bring it back to life. And I think that this is part of the problem in society today - people want to avoid consequences. If the situation were reversed, I would be fully prepared to accept losing her as a consequence, and would defer to a male virgin.

Have any of you ever been in a very serious relationship as adults where the one you were with tempted you? If not, then you are really cheap in saying what you do. How easy it is for you!

Irrelevant. I stay away from the “bad companions”, as the old Baltimore Catechism calls them. If more people were mindful of that, there would be less problems.

And now this is how it all comes together to show how it relates to the original post, because it indicates that the fiancee has “bad companions” who will get him into trouble, and if she marries him, these “bad companions” could potentially become “bad companions” to her (which is why I referenced the other thread about the husband who wanted to go out to a bar in bad weather). And whatevergirl, when you add it all up, I think this is indeed a situation where he needs a “chill sent down his spine”, as I see potential for danger if he ever gets drunk again. He has a history, and this incident clearly shows that he is not “over it”. And since he has been travelling out of town for work, and he has shown that he will engage in this type of behavior when drunk, how can she ensure that he will not do so again (or worse) - should she go with him on business trips and ensure that he does ot fall in with “bad companions”, get drunk, and engage in who knows what? I know the ACOA in me is most likely kicking in and I sound harsh and don’t buy into the fluffy “he went to confession, all is well” mentality, but I see red flags of potential future danger here.

 

[duskyjewel]

There is a difference between a person having sexual relationships in the past, learning from that mistake, and living chastely from then on and a person who is a grownup, has been educated, and still chose to engage in disgusting behavior yesterday. Five minutes ago is not “the past.”

My DH is one of the people who learned from a mistake. His first sexual relationship occurred at age 15. He knew it was wrong, but he was also a hormonal teenage boy with little supervision or guidance (his dad’s “talk” consisted of “don’t do anything that will get you into trouble”) and a willing girlfriend. After two or three times, he couldn’t stand the guilt and broke it off with her. She became violent and hit him in the face with a handful of keys. He still bears the scar. He spent the next year and a half hating himself, dwelling in black depression. I have seen his notebooks from that time. You never saw such dark poetry or sad stories. They all seem to end with suicide. (I am still angry with my ILs to this day for not seeing and dealing better with this. I could have been robbed of a wonderful man had he carried out what was in his mind.) The experience taught him to be more circumspect and rededicated him to his faith. I am the only other sexual partner he’s had, and he is my one and only.

Today he is an excellent father, dedicated husband, and faithful Catholic discerning whether he is called to the diaconate. So people can learn from their mistakes and move on to live morally sound, faith filled lives.

The fiance in this case is a 30 year old man who has been through Catholic marriage prep. He is at least familiar with the idea of the sacramentality of marital sex, and the obscenity of abusing that gift. And yet still, he allowed a paid stranger to rub against him to excite him. Had the stripper been the type to earn extra money on the side by going further, as many do, what would he have done? Suddenly start making good decisions? Somehow, I doubt it.

My DH got invited to go to strip clubs in Mexico when we were stationed in South Texas, 3 miles from the border. Being a very new, and less wise wife, I didn’t want to stifle him, so I said nothing. But he never went. He really had learned what comes from disrespecting sexuality, so he decided that camaraderie could be had in other ways, and came home to eat dinner with me and watch my pregnant belly grow instead. His bachelor party consisted of drinking beer with his best friends, dad, and brother, embarrassing each other with funny stories. He didn’t want any kind of “fling” because he didn’t feel he was giving anything up by getting married. He was achieving something he had wanted all his life. I wonder what attitude people have about marriage when they feel parties with strippers are necessary beforehand.

This happened with a seasoned adult, after education about marriage and the Church’s view of sex, only a few weeks before the wedding. He blames peer pressure to try and get out of some of the responsibility. These are NOT good signs that he understands what he is doing by marrying, that he is ready to marry, or that he has the capacity to be a married man. And I would say the same about a woman who spent an evening with a Chippendale dancer’s g-string in her face. (Eeeewww…)

 

[GraceDK]

((( For DuskyJewel…

Thanks for sharing that testimony. Your husbands story sounds a great deal like my own… although I could not use young age as an excuse. I too was launched into a depression that has lasted almost a year now… I start to feel that things improve. I dont weep night and day anymore or have panic attacks where I cant sleep but especially in the first few months after my fall I was close to despair and I really did have moments where I did not wanna live anymore and wished that buddhism was true: that you could be dissolved into nothing efter death instead of having to face myself for all eternity. Still I have the feeling that I am beside my self and that some catastrophe has happend… The doc told me I indeed do have a depression.
I know I am not through yet… but I see clealy now that its Love that causes the resurrection from death, litterally. Love, understanding, humility I have seen in the Body of Christ… but unfortunately also a few people who wanna give me the final blow for resons unknown to me… its like some people dont understand that once you reach a certain point you are already laying down and there really is not any free spot on your body where that person can stricke you …

The only healer is love, God’s and people’s. Jesus treated the sinners like they were sick… and it is really like that. )))

 

[ElizabethAnne]

As far as postponing the wedding, the reason that is “not an option” is because of the thousands of dollars in deposits that would be lost. And because it is out of town for both of our families, numerous flights and reservations have already been purchased. I know people will say that it’s worth losing all that for the sake of this sacrament, but I don’t think postponement is the answer…

AlmostMarried, I wanted to say that I think you should at least consider the option of postponing the wedding. Even if it’s not the correct answer in this situation, I would urge you not to rule it out too quickly. Perhaps you have already done this!

Since this was for a Bachelor Party, and it seems he hasn’t done it before, how can his financee’s trust be regained? No more strip clubs? No more Bachelor parties? No more Bachelor Parties in strip clubs? Seems like the wedding would take care of that - no bachelor parties after that.

Actually, his friends will likely have bachelor parties that he is invited to and pressured to go to.

IMHO, if someone is educated on the sacred nature of sex in marriage (Theology of the Body), then going along with the guys and buying lap dances is more than just a little slip. Maybe that’s the norm in our culture, but it is extremely demeaning to all parties involved and shows a tremendous lack of respect for the human person.

I could not agree more! It’s disrespectful to the fiance, his future spouse and all the girls who make a living by marketing their bodies.

 

[Scanner]

Grace

I am very sorry to hear you are in a clinical depression and I hope my writings on this thread and the other have not served to aggravate any more.

As a doctor myself, let me give you some advice: get off the internet. On the net, you end up being in your own head too much.

And partake in Good Works and Fasting, both what I feel are remedies for depression. Physiologically speaking, fasting does wonders - it purifies, your blood sugar drops, weight drops (if you are overweight) and human growth hormone is released. IOW, you just feel better and you deserve that.

And helping others through your time and toil can lift your spirit.

And of course, follow your physician’s advice with medication and don’t fast too long if you are diabetic or have some other metabolic disease, not without medical supervision.

I wish you well.

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Scanner…
Thanks for your concern but actually it seems like the internet is the only thing I can manage to do… other stuff, like my work, seems just too difficult to get done… in some strange way.
I dont get medication for my depression… and no couselling… actually I get most counseling from speaking to and being understood by friends and family… and whereas I have learned very many things about male thinking that are deeply depressing while reading on these fora, being here with my own problems have helped me, especially in the beginning:
There were some really humble brothers and sisters that soothed me greatly after that fall that triggered the depression. The secular doc did not like the fact that a young christian woman be so devastated and even depressed because of shame and guilt over a sin which in her eyes was no sin at all… … thats why I dont go to counselling… they think we are under some evil suppresive world view that wont allow our natural sexuality to flourish … and no we dont have catholic counsellors where I live.
So… I am not going to get off the internet, I might as well tell you that… (so you have to bear with my disagreeing posts )
and I am not going to go into fasting which I practiced much earlier ( It never made me happy although I liked the sense of control and being able to say: “hey, I am fasting…look at Pious-Grace!”… hehe)… I can’t even get my daily work done… the unability to fast would only be one more thing to strike stupid-Grace in the head with… a burden I can’t and wont carry right now.
What I do is I try to do positive thinking… take walks in beautiful spring and … if I could learn to stay away from people that hurt my feelings until I get ready to take on the world, and just be with good friends… that would do me good.
Besides… I know Jesus is healing me though time…
So don’t worry about me doc…
Again… thanks for your attempt to comfort and give advice.
as for my dissagreements with you… I am depressed… not crazy, and I still mean everything I said.

Peace.

 

[Asillia]

This broke my heart.

I don’t know what I would do if this happened to me (I’m gettting married in 6 months).

I know how you feel though. My fiance has been my best friend for many years (we’ve been romantically involved for a year and a half). Before we started dating (before I even thought I would want to date him) he said he had to confess something to me. On his 24th birthday (a few monthis prior to this talk) he had gotten drunk and lost his virginity. I was very dissapointed in him but we had a really good talk. He was committed to starting anew and reclaiming all the chaste values he had once clung to in his youth (he went astray in college). He got serious about going to confession, praying and limiting his alcohol intake. I know that he was deeply sorry for what he did. He kept saying he felt unfit for ever getting married and that he had cheated on his future wife, etc. I consoled him the best I could and told him that whoever he married (I had no idea it would be me!) would look at the man he was at the time, and acknowledge that Christ makes all things new.

So time passed, and we started dating, and 3 months into the relationship he had another confession: he had been struggling with a pornography addiction since he was a teenager. I was so shocked and heartbroken - this is one of those guys you would NEVER think this of. He had been going to confession and praying but he was still struggling…it used to be something he had to do every day.

I admit I was tempted to break up with him then…but I love him with all my heart and thought maybe part of the reason I was in his life was to love him like Christ does and help him get the help he needed. Anyway…long story short, but it’s been nearly a year since his last fall. It is definitely the hardest thing I’ve ever been through, but it was worth it. And in general, he is a changed man - he has more self control, he is more assertive. I know he has worked very hard to view his sexuality, and me, and all women with the proper respect.

So my point is, this may not be the end of the relationship. God can work wonders, and can restore him if he is truly open to it, and can also restore your broken heart. You may need to postpone the wedding, because he does need to prove he is serious. You are the one who knows him best and so you can judge better than us if he is really sorry, if this is really indicative of his character, etc. I flat out told my fiance (then boyfriend) that I would not consider marrying him unless he was serious about getting this under control, and he agreed. I agree with some of the above posters that his actions are more than just a simple mistake or succumbing to temptation, and they can’t really be accounted for by a compulsive addiction, either.

I think the best thing he can do is stop drinking. My fiance also had to limit his alcohol intake (basically we’ll drink with meals at times), and also gave me his wireless card so he can no longer access the internet in his room.

Good luck. I know how hard this is.

 

[Scanner]

and I am not going to go into fasting which I practiced much earlier ( It never made me happy although I liked the sense of control and being able to say: “hey, I am fasting…look at Pious-Grace!”… hehe)… I can’t even get my daily work done… the unability to fast would only be one more thing to strike stupid-Grace in the head with… a burden I can’t and wont carry right now.

Grace,

I find this comment interesting. In the Spirituality forum, I have been advised that “over-piety/scrupulosity” (pride) is a danger from fasting and it’s to be private/not announced. . .so. . .it seems only a little discussed here.

In fact, it was advised to me that this is something to only share with a Confessor, as if it’s some kind of sin I am engaging in.

Yet. . .it’s common here to say, “I’ll pray for you.”

In fact, it’s almost a Catholic trait to say that. This was satirized in a Simpson’s episode where “Bart and Homer” went Catholic and Marge in her frustration while talking to Bart about his newfound faith says:

“I’ll say a Hail Mary for you, Mom.”

LOL.

He was “sassing her” but of course, she was puzzled on how to react.

It’s seems that praying can be done with an “air” or spirit of pride sometimes too (this could be inferred or implied).

Yet. . .when a person accomplishes a fast, they are almost scolded.

I am finding this culture strange. . .but I am adjusting.

Anyway, I don’t think of it as some kind of acheivement or a competition. . .I find the fast “rejuvenating” emotionally, physically, spiritually, mentally and actually look forward to it. . . not dread it. . .the thought never occured to me to throw it in anybody’s face and I hope I have not come across as thus.

I would hope a fast could help your emotional status, that’s all.

And I know you aren’t crazy. . .I hope I did not imply that either.

I am.

 

[GraceDK]

Hey Scanner…

From a person who has not grown up in Catholicism; I think there is always a need to worry about pride among serious believers…
I see many Catholics who put up criteria for their neighbour when they want to assess whether the other is a good Christian… they then will make a list of outer signs and rituals… like 2-3 rosaries a day … fasting… going to daily Mass etc… and then they say: “okay this is a good catholic.”. And I am left thinking: hey wait a minut… how do we know what is going on in the heart of man? I see one criteria for a good Christian only and that criteria is hidden. This is it: that he/she LOVES Christ… and has actually met Him in a way that changed the heart and made it softer.
Humans cannot assess a heart. Its like… you know… they have these dating pages with people searcning really pious Catholics to marry… and thats all fine, but can you make a critereia list where it is said:
-faithful catholic who obeys the magisterium
-totally into NFP etc etc… but what about - Loves Christ.
basically I think I could not take my self serious if I wrote my ritual activities down on a screen for people to say: “okay this woman is worthy of my attention…look how pious she is.”. Its hilarious in a tragic way.
Lord have mercy on me the sinner… thats the prayer we should pray and then with confidence in our FATHER believe that we really are HIS and we are not hanging midair between heaven and hell. …Maybe I am going off topic…
The thing is this Scanner… I believe fasting is a good thing: if you are a smoker you cut down from 30 to 10 on a fasting day… if you are a golfmaniac you dont go to golf on that day… if you love cake and candy (my weakness) then you go from 5 chodolatebars to 1 or 2… get the point? If you love the internet or TV then switch it off for one day… then I assure you you dont like the fast for very long
We must not be slaves under the flesh. This is the point. That being said we should give thanks to God for all good things and not use fasting as a means to become prideful people.
As for me… no, I never felt it got me closer to God to fast. I was so tired and emotional on those days… still today I rather not eat anything the whole day than eat dry bread and water … I’ll never have a normal relationship to dry bread again! And for all my “spiritual exercises” Paul is right: they do us only little good. For me I always felt like I was not doing enough even when I was living like an ascetic and did everything I could… I think that ascetisim has that secret in it: we get tired of it and learn humility… say: okay Jesus… you are Holy… I am not.
… thats a bit of inside information from one who knows that Jesus is her only Holiness.
Peace to you.

 

[Norseman82]

On a humorous note…

When one of my fellow Catholic male friends got married, I went to the paint department at Home Depot, wrapped up my purchase, and presented it to my friend…when he looked at me puzzled, I said, “here’s your stripper”…the lady he married got a kick out of it.

I wonder if he ever used it on the railings when he was repainting them? (Note to self: I need to get my heat gun back).

 

[ChristianWAB]

…Somehow they ended up at a strip club (apparently he didn’t put up too much of a fight when they drove him there). He told me about it the next day and admitted that they had bought each other lap dances. He apologized profusely, believes that it was wrong, and wants to use this as a springboard to make changes in his life in regards to alcohol. I don’t know what to do now.

Decide for yourself if you have the capacity to forgive others for their sins as God has forgiven yours.

If you lack this capacity for forgiveness, you NEED to break it off because marriages don’t survive without forgiveness.

If you DO have this ability to forgive, you should forgive him, move on and get married.

 

[duskyjewel]

She can forgive him and still decide it would be unwise to marry him. His behavior says to me that he is not ready, nor does he understand, the Sacrament of Marriage.

 

[Norseman82]

Norseman;

I was a virgin when I married, and I would never ever have considered ‘using it as leverage,’ to get a man, or to ‘wake a man up,’ or to ‘send a chill down a man’s spine.’

Well, maybe if more people would stand up for themselves and/or try to use leverage, then perhaps we’d see the promiscuity levels drop and a decrease in posts and threads where women are complaining about their husbands/fiancees.

This rotten world isn’t going to be changed by wishful thinking, but rather by holding people accountable for their actions.

 

[Norseman82]

Listen to this song and watch the video… It might help put things into the right perspective…

youtube.com/watch?v=KKU2kgwnjOs

“This video or group may contain content that is inappropriate for some users, as flagged by YouTube’s user community. To view this video or group, please verify you are 18 or older by logging in or signing up”.

For crying out loud, Grace, what are you trying to do, direct people to a porn site?

 

[agapewolf]

“This video or group may contain content that is inappropriate for some users, as flagged by YouTube’s user community. To view this video or group, please verify you are 18 or older by logging in or signing up”.

For crying out loud, Grace, what are you trying to do, direct people to a porn site?

No norseman,

Its a typical teen peer pressure Jesus video. It only takes one person to flag a video for it to be put into that category. It bloody scenes from the passion…hence adults viewing.

 

[Norseman82]

hi, my husband went to a strip club when we were MARRIED :banghead: :knight2:

I was in Toronto a few weeks ago for our hockey playoffs, and I was absolutely mindboggled at all the people on my team who are in their 40s and older and married making plans to go to strip clubs (I even had to tell my captain that I would not be able to attend a team meeting if one were held at one).