Fifth Dogma Relating to Mary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PalmSunday
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
But sometimes we have to be careful that we don’t make it sound as though you HAVE to go through Mary to get to Jesus. I think this would blurr that a bit. When I entered the Church, I had no trouble with any of the Marian dogmas, because I didn’t buy Sola Scriptura. This bothers me a bit, as it seems to go beyond what the Church has said before. As far as “Co-Redeemer” meaning “with the Redeemer,” that doesn’t work well in English, co-pilot notwithstanding. Consider “co-chair,” for example, two chair people exercise joint or equal authority.
Yeah, it doesn’t mean you have to go through Mary, it means that all graces go through her. I mean, I don’t really think either of these things will be declared dogmas, but it wouldn’t bother me either way bcause if they are declared, it means it’s true. If it bothers Protestants, oh well.
 
40.png
Genesis315:
Why? If I pray for you, I am a mediator of the graces that God gives you as a result of my prayer. Mary loves us so much (as a good mother does) she is always praying for all of us non-stop so in that way she mediates all graces:thumbsup:
I dont have a problem with that

But doesnt Mediatrix of all graces means that every grace god grants us necessarily goes thru Mary? It is like putting Mary between the trinity and the rest of humanity, and she is a creature, did god act directly before he created mary and after the assumption he put her as universal distributor of graces?
 
40.png
Genesis315:
Yeah, it doesn’t mean you have to go through Mary, it means that all graces go through her. I mean, I don’t really think either of these things will be declared dogmas, but it wouldn’t bother me either way bcause if they are declared, it means it’s true. If it bothers Protestants, oh well.
I have no problem with the idea that all graces go through her historically (she gave birth to Jesus, who is Grace Itself, and from Whom all grace comes) nor do I have a problem with the idea that she may, by her loving intercession, obtain graces for us. I have a problem if Our Lady is regarded as the fountainhead or origin of grace (the genitor, as it were) because I believe that is the Triune God alone. I also have a problem with the notion that if God gives grace it goes through her like a clearing house or something.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
I have no problem with the idea that all graces go through her historically (she gave birth to Jesus, who is Grace Itself, and from Whom all grace comes) nor do I have a problem with the idea that she may, by her loving intercession, obtain graces for us. I have a problem if Our Lady is regarded as the fountainhead or origin of grace (the genitor, as it were) because I believe that is the Triune God alone. I also have a problem with the notion that if God gives grace it goes through her like a clearing house or something.
Well, mediator by definition means she’s not the source. Here’s an interesting article on the subject of Mary as mediatrix:

christianperfection.info/tta16.htm
 
40.png
Genesis315:
Yeah, it doesn’t mean you have to go through Mary, it means that all graces go through her. I mean, I don’t really think either of these things will be declared dogmas, but it wouldn’t bother me either way bcause if they are declared, it means it’s true. If it bothers Protestants, oh well.
I think this isn’t so much about bothering Protestants. It’s a concern to me because it bothers Catholics, many of whom possess a strong understanding of the Church’s teachings.

For example, I have yet to see how Mary being a Mediatrix or “distributor” of all grace (in a broker sense) reconciles with the Sacraments working ex opere operato and in persona Christi. Can anyone help?

Because if it can’t be reconciled, then I can only understand it as I posted earlier.
 
40.png
porthos11:
I think this isn’t so much about bothering Protestants. It’s a concern to me because it bothers Catholics, many of whom possess a strong understanding of the Church’s teachings.

For example, I have yet to see how Mary being a Mediatrix or “distributor” of all grace (in a broker sense) reconciles with the Sacraments working ex opere operato and in persona Christi. Can anyone help?

Because if it can’t be reconciled, then I can only understand it as I posted earlier.
Hey, if it is defined (which i doubt it will be), that would mean it is true. If the truth bothers anyone, then so be it.

The body of Christ came through Mary. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ which came through Mary. So there’s that grace.

Basically, all the grace of the Sacraments comes through Jesus and also comes through Mary for the simple fact that He came through her:thumbsup:
 
40.png
Genesis315:
Hey, if it is defined (which i doubt it will be), that would mean it is true. If the truth bothers anyone, then so be it.

The body of Christ came through Mary. The Eucharist is the Body of Christ which came through Mary. So there’s that grace.

Basically, all the grace of the Sacraments comes through Jesus and also comes through Mary for the simple fact that He came through her:thumbsup:
Hi Genesis,

Exactly. Which only goes back to my original understanding. Mary as Mediatrix of grace tells more of who she IS, rather than what she DOES. And there, I have absolutely no problem. I don’t think I can reconcile the “grace broker” or dispenser analogy at all; it would contradict all I’ve been taught of Sacramental theology (the priest is in persona Christi; the Holy Eucharist is the BBS&D of our Lord, which clearly shows a direct application of grace from Christ to us).
 
40.png
porthos11:
Hi Genesis,

Exactly. Which only goes back to my original understanding. Mary as Mediatrix of grace tells more of who she IS, rather than what she DOES. And there, I have absolutely no problem. I don’t think I can reconcile the “grace broker” or dispenser analogy at all; it would contradict all I’ve been taught of Sacramental theology (the priest is in persona Christi; the Holy Eucharist is the BBS&D of our Lord, which clearly shows a direct application of grace from Christ to us).
Well, I still think there is something to be said for her constant intercession as another source of mediation too.
 
40.png
Genesis315:
Well, I still think there is something to be said for her constant intercession as another source of mediation too.
Yes, no problem there either. 🙂

Doesn’t exaxtly sound like St. Louis or St. Alphonsus, does it? In fact what you’ve been showing are more in line with Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
 
In an encyclical on the Rosary, Leo XIII says: “According to the will of God, nothing is granted to us except through Mary; and, as no one can go to the Father except through the Son, so generally no one can draw near to Christ except through Mary.
(emphasis added)

Seriously, there is a real problem with this. This is incredibly disturbing. This essentially states explicitly that we can’t go to Jesus unless we go through Mary. That’s heretical and blasphemous.
Even during her earthly life, Mary truly appears in Scripture as the distributor of graces. Through Mary, Jesus sanctified the Precursor when she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth and sang the Magnificat. Through His mother, Jesus confirmed the faith of the disciples at Cana, by granting the miracle that she asked. Through her, He strengthened the faith of John on Calvary, saying to him: “Behold thy mother.” Lastly, by her the Holy Ghost came down upon the apostles, for she was praying with them in the cenacle on Pentecost day when the Holy Ghost descended in the form of tongues of fire.(25)
As Gottle already pointed out there are a vast number of graces that Jesus gave to people recroded throughout Scripture where Mary was nowhere to be found, and being on Earth certainly didn’t know what was happening. Given that, I can’t take this statement to be anything less than intentional deception; whoever wrote this can’t possibly be so ignorant of what is in the Bible so as to know that none of these events happened. They are picking and choosing scripture, which is the same thing Protestants do to attack Catholicism.
With even greater reason after the assumption and her entrance into glory, Mary is the distributor of all graces. As a beatified mother knows in heaven the spiritual needs of her children whom she left on earth, Mary knows the spiritual needs of all men. Since she is an excellent mother, she prays for them and, since she is all powerful over the heart of her Son, she obtains for them all the graces that they receive, all which those receive who do not persist in evil.
Real problems here. This explicitly says that her prayers are the only reason we receive grace. This is a huge problem. If she helps us get grace, fine. But this says we can’t get it if she doesn’t pray for us.

Above all, though, look at this: "since she is all powerful over the heart of her Son"

I don’t think I need to point out to anyone here how utterly blasphemous, idolatrous, and sinful that statement is. It says that Mary has control over Christ. Some people may try to reject that this is what it says by caliming that it really means she is Christ’s mother, so He can’t refuse her because he loves her so much.

There’s a major problem here: if Christ can’t say no to her, for whatever reason, this makes him subjective to her! God is not subjective to ANYBODY, PERIOD. Also, Christ’s heart is more or less His will. Mary isn’t all powerful over Christ in any way!

:confused:
 
Lazerlike42 said:
(emphasis added)

Seriously, there is a real problem with this. This is incredibly disturbing. This essentially states explicitly that we can’t go to Jesus unless we go through Mary. That’s heretical and blasphemous.

Not really. Look. God came to man through Mary. She became the gateway connecting God and human beings. It’s not like Jesus won’t hear us unles we invoke Mary, it’s that by default when we go to Jesus we also go through Mary, just as God went through Mary when He came to us.
 
The quote you are referring to says that generall nobody can draw to Christ EXCEPT through Mary, it doesn’t say " It’s not like Jesus won’t hear us unles we invoke Mary," it says we can’t go to Christ except through Mary.
 
The bible says there is only one mediator between God and Man, JesusChrist,

do that mean there are 2 stances of mediation now?

Mary-----Jesus-----God

What about the time before Mary was created?

My prayer would have gone directly from Jesus to God 100 bc and from Mary to Jesus to God 100 ad, did her creation change the organizational structure of heaven?
 
40.png
Asking:
The bible says there is only one mediator between God and Man, JesusChrist,

do that mean there are 2 stances of mediation now?

Mary-----Jesus-----God

What about the time before Mary was created?

My prayer would have gone directly from Jesus to God 100 bc and from Mary to Jesus to God 100 ad, did her creation change the organizational structure of heaven?
No none of this has anything to do with prayers. This is all about graces. Prayers can be said directly to God, or you can ask Mary or any Saint to pray to God for you either way is fine.
 
40.png
Asking:
The bible says there is only one mediator between God and Man, JesusChrist,

do that mean there are 2 stances of mediation now?

Mary-----Jesus-----God

What about the time before Mary was created?

My prayer would have gone directly from Jesus to God 100 bc and from Mary to Jesus to God 100 ad, did her creation change the organizational structure of heaven?
Right, there is only one mediator between man and the Father, that is Jesus. It says nothing about mediators between Jesus and man. As has been pointed out already, when someone else prays for you, they are a mediator. Even if they for you to the Father, they go through Jesus automatically (just as we do when we pray directly to God, it automatically goes through Jesus since no man goes to the Father except through the Son.)
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
The quote you are referring to says that generall nobody can draw to Christ EXCEPT through Mary, it doesn’t say " It’s not like Jesus won’t hear us unles we invoke Mary," it says we can’t go to Christ except through Mary.
Right, but you are interpreting it to mean that Jesus won’t hear us unless we invoke Mary.

As I said in my post to asking, concerning Jesus and the Father, it is similar with Mary. Due to her constant intercession and her intimate relationship with Christ and the incarnation, when we go to Jesus we also through Mary whether we know it or not.
 
I will just trust in the Holy Spirit to lead the Church as always, I am sure it will all be fine in the end.

Now can anyone post a link or something to this? I looked through the thread and found nothing, maybe I missed it but I trust in Jesus and His Church to lead us into all truth. I am sure there are people with waaay too much devotion to Mary out there, but in 2000 years the Church has prevailed, I trust the Holy Spirit will keep it that way.

So is there a link I missed?

Scylla
 
Genesis, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with prayer. There’s nothing wrong with praying to Mary or anyone else for intercession. (If on the other hand you are saying that when I pray directly to Christ it goes through her, then that’s a major problem)

You have a problem though in saying that Mary is a mediator between us and Christ. If Christ is the mediator between the Father and us, than anybody we put between us and Christ also becomes a mediator between us and the Father.

If I am a senator for my state, then I am the mediator between my consituents and the government as a whole. They go to me, and I go to the government as a whole. However, if I hire an assistant, and say that any contact with me must go through my assistant, than the assistant not only becomes a mediatore between the consituents and me, but also between the constiuents and the government as a whole. If, on the other hand, I say that people CAN go through my assistant, and may get better results, but that they can also go directly through me, I can still be the sole mediator.

If Mary is the ONLY way to Christ (whether we know it or not) then Christ is no longer the sole mediator. If, on the other hand, she CAN be a way to Christ but Christ also can be reached without her, then she is A mediator between man an Christ, not the sole required mediator between man and Christ. That would be fine.
 
40.png
scylla:
I will just trust in the Holy Spirit to lead the Church as always, I am sure it will all be fine in the end.

Now can anyone post a link or something to this? I looked through the thread and found nothing, maybe I missed it but I trust in Jesus and His Church to lead us into all truth. I am sure there are people with waaay too much devotion to Mary out there, but in 2000 years the Church has prevailed, I trust the Holy Spirit will keep it that way.

So is there a link I missed?

Scylla
what are you looking for a link to?
 
Re:Link?

The radio station program, an archive to listen to. Or a link to see where they got their information on where I can find this information of a current movement and it’s progress.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top