fililoque

[Nine_Two]

Hi Ryan Black: Thanks for your response. I had not thought of it in that way as you stated. Yet, it seems to me that if it is to be understood in a temporal manor
then the passage has no real meaning and it becomes why would St. John write this is the meaning is what Orthodox say it is as to what I think St. John himself is saying and understanding?

What do you mean it has no meaning? Christ promising to send a guide for his Church when he leaves them is meaningless?

 

[Nine_Two]

Hi Nine Two: I and happy to know that the Orthodox did not miss the passage. I understand where you are coming from in that the Holy Spirit originating from the Father and sent by the Son. It does make sense if one understands that Jesus said that the Father and I(Jesus) are one and that everything that the Father has I(Jesus) have, as then the Holy Spirit much then come from both since both the father and the Son are one in substance so in effect the Holy Spirit then not only comes from the Father but also from the Son, otherwise if the Holy Spirit come only from the Father is like saying that the Son has no Spirit and that somehow the Holy Spirit while of the same substance as the Father is not of the same substance as the Son which I think you will agree that it is not so.

We (in accord with the Nicene Creed) believe all three are of the same substance. By your argument that the Holy Spirit is created from both because Christ and the Father are of one substance, then the Holy Spirit must also be partially the product of auto-genesis. But this contradicts the Nicene Creed which ascribes auto-genesis to the Father alone.

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts in Christianity to understand, and this only serves to confuse that particular issue.

 

[spina1953]

Mm. Quite the dilemma, except, neither including or excluding the phrase speak of substance of the Holy Spirit, but you’ve now created another dilemma. If the Son comes from the Father, and the Spirit from the Father and Son - according to your stated view - then doesn’t the Spirit seem dependent or subordinate to both?

Hi SyroMalankara: I guess it could be a dilemma, I am not sure. That being said for me The Father Son and the Holy Spirit are one God as they are of the same substance or essence. The problem as I see it is that when one tries to figure out how the Blessed Trinity is in that does the Holy Spirit come only from the Father, is sent by the Son, or proceeds from both the Father and the Son gets very confusing and then it has to either one way or a another way in which one believes.

It just seems to me that since God is one and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the Father, while different in the sense that in human terms each does something different from the other but and yet they are the same since neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can deny each other or themselves. I do not believe that the Son or the Holy Spirit are dependent or subordinate to both or one. The real problem is trying to understand the trinity which is a mystery in the first place and we humans are not going to understand it or be able to explain it in a way that all can understand. All one can do is try to explain it the best one can even though it be imperfect explanation and or understanding.

If one believes in the Blessed trinity the Father Son and the Holy Spirit then it just seems to me that us all we really need and How the Holy Spirit proceeds from either the Father through the Son or both or only from the Father really is not as important as believing in three persons in one God.

 

[Vico]

We (in accord with the Nicene Creed) believe all three are of the same substance. By your argument that the Holy Spirit is created from both because Christ and the Father are of one substance, then the Holy Spirit must also be partially the product of auto-genesis. But this contradicts the Nicene Creed which ascribes auto-genesis to the Father alone.

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts in Christianity to understand, and this only serves to confuse that particular issue.

The Holy Spirit is not created.

St. Pope John Paul II wrote:Clearly since we are referring to God we must free the word “origin” from all reference to created and temporal origin. That is, the communication of existence to someone in an active sense must be excluded, and therefore the prior existence and the superiority of the one over the other, and likewise post-existence and dependence on the other. In God all is eternal, beyond time. The origin of the Holy Spirit is therefore eternal, as is that of the Son within the Trinitarian mystery in which the three divine Persons are consubstantial. It is precisely a procession with spiritual origins, as occurs (to use an analogy which is always very imperfect) in the “production” of thought or of love which remain in the soul united to the mind from which they originated. “It is in this sense,” St. Thomas writes, “that the Catholic faith admits processions in God”.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19901107en.html

 

[Richca]

Hi SyroMalankara: I guess it could be a dilemma, I am not sure. That being said for me The Father Son and the Holy Spirit are one God as they are of the same substance or essence. The problem as I see it is that when one tries to figure out how the Blessed Trinity is in that does the Holy Spirit come only from the Father, is sent by the Son, or proceeds from both the Father and the Son gets very confusing and then it has to either one way or a another way in which one believes.

It just seems to me that since God is one and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the Father, while different in the sense that in human terms each does something different from the other but and yet they are the same since neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can deny each other or themselves. I do not believe that the Son or the Holy Spirit are dependent or subordinate to both or one. The real problem is trying to understand the trinity which is a mystery in the first place and we humans are not going to understand it or be able to explain it in a way that all can understand. All one can do is try to explain it the best one can even though it be imperfect explanation and or understanding.

If one believes in the Blessed trinity the Father Son and the Holy Spirit then it just seems to me that us all we really need and How the Holy Spirit proceeds from either the Father through the Son or both or only from the Father really is not as important as believing in three persons in one God.

Hi spina,
I would think that to God the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, that it is extremely important, indeed infinitely important, whether or not a divine person, a God, proceeds from Him or not. Now the Catholic Church teaches as an article of faith that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. If we stop and meditate on this for a minute, how wonderfully awesome is this for God the Son, that a divine person proceeds from Him together with the Father. What a Gift and what love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father!

 

[Nine_Two]

The Holy Spirit is not created.

St. Pope John Paul II wrote:Clearly since we are referring to God we must free the word “origin” from all reference to created and temporal origin. That is, the communication of existence to someone in an active sense must be excluded, and therefore the prior existence and the superiority of the one over the other, and likewise post-existence and dependence on the other. In God all is eternal, beyond time. The origin of the Holy Spirit is therefore eternal, as is that of the Son within the Trinitarian mystery in which the three divine Persons are consubstantial. It is precisely a procession with spiritual origins, as occurs (to use an analogy which is always very imperfect) in the “production” of thought or of love which remain in the soul united to the mind from which they originated. “It is in this sense,” St. Thomas writes, “that the Catholic faith admits processions in God”.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19901107en.html

I could have chosen my words better, nonetheless to claim the dual procession on the basis that the Father and Son are the same substance also must argue for an auto-genesis of some sort, since the Holy Spirit is also of the same substance.

 

[spina1953]

First I would like to be very clear on this point. The Holy Spirit is not created and never said He was. It is nevertheless the ineffable mystery of the most Holy Trinity can only be known through revelation. There are three distinct divine Persons in God, who are also one divine substance. Nor can three Persons in God be reduced to merely one Person, as the Modalists, monarcchians, sabellians ands patripassians attempted to do.

By the time of the fourth century, the denial of Catholic Trinitarian doctrine had become more subtle. The Arians denied that the Logos had existed from all eternity, but asserted that there had been a time when He was not. Therefore, while there were indeed three Persons in the trinity, the second and third Persons are not consubstantial with the first.
Various Fathers tell us that the Father alone does not proceed. All insist that the Son was not made but was truly born of the Father, and that His generation is voluntary and natural. They affirm that He is both co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father, and give to Him such names as Wisdom, Splendor, Image of the Father, etc.

The doctrines of the Holy Spirit do not come into true focus until the Nicene and post-Nicene period. Here the Cappadocian Fathers are prominent in their attempt to help clarify the terminology of hypostasis and ousia. The Holy Spirit is denominated the Image of the Son, and Terullian is the first to declare that he proceeds from the Father through the Son. Procession is distinguished from generation by the time of the fourth century, and the various operations of the three Persons are distinctly elaborated.

 

[spina1953]

We (in accord with the Nicene Creed) believe all three are of the same substance. By your argument that the Holy Spirit is created from both because Christ and the Father are of one substance, then the Holy Spirit must also be partially the product of auto-genesis. But this contradicts the Nicene Creed which ascribes auto-genesis to the Father alone.

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts in Christianity to understand, and this only serves to confuse that particular issue.

Hi Nine Two: If I wrote that the Holy Spirit was created I am sorry as I did not mean that at all. What I am trying to say is that if the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same substance or essence than they are co-consubstantial with the Father who is the origin. It seems to me that to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father is like saying that Christ the Son of God has no Spirit and is really not one with the Father which is contrary to what Jesus Himself said.

Since Jesus Himself said the He and the Father are one and that all that the Father has was given to Him(Christ) all that the Son has is given to the Father, how then can the Holy Spirit come only from the Father but not from the Son? If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son. To say that the Holy Spirit comes only from the Father means that the Son is less than what He says He is and is not one with the Father.

 

[RyanBlack]

If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son.

Is the Son begotten by the Father and the Holy Spirit, or only by the Father?

 

[spina1953]

Is the Son begotten by the Father and the Holy Spirit, or only by the Father?

Hi RyanBlack: I am not sure if I understand your question but will try to explain what I think I understand. No the Son is begotten of the Father only so far as has been understood by the ECF etc. We do know or at least understand that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit has always existed in eternity. We also know or at understand that somehow the Son is of the same substance or essence and is co-consubstantial with the Father. This would seem to me that then the Holy Spirit is also co-substantial with the Father and also with the Son because both the Father and the Son are one as Jesus has Himself said. So if the three Persons in one God yet, distinct and that the Son is begotten not made then what of the Holy Spirit? It does not appear that the Holy Spirit was made or created. The Son has the same Spirit as the Father and the Father has the same Spirit as the Son at least it seems that way to me.

 

[RyanBlack]

Hi RyanBlack: I am not sure if I understand your question but will try to explain what I think I understand. No the Son is begotten of the Father only so far as has been understood by the ECF etc. We do know or at least understand that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit has always existed in eternity. We also know or at understand that somehow the Son is of the same substance or essence and is co-consubstantial with the Father. This would seem to me that then the Holy Spirit is also co-substantial with the Father and also with the Son because both the Father and the Son are one as Jesus has Himself said. So if the three Persons in one God yet, distinct and that the Son is begotten not made then what of the Holy Spirit? It does not appear that the Holy Spirit was made or created. The Son has the same Spirit as the Father and the Father has the same Spirit as the Son at least it seems that way to me.

You wrote “If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son.” If the consubstantiality of all three persons means that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from both the Father and the Son, and not from the Father alone, then why does the consubstantiality of all three persons not also mean that the Son takes his origin from both the Father and and the Holy Spirit, and not from the Father alone?

 

[spina1953]

You wrote “If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son.” If the consubstantiality of all three persons means that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from both the Father and the Son, and not from the Father alone, then why does the consubstantiality of all three persons not also mean that the Son takes his origin from both the Father and and the Holy Spirit, and not from the Father alone?

Hi RyanBlack: You got me as I do not really know. I know from the Gospels that Jesus said that He and the Father are one, Jesus also said that the Father is greater He. I understand that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct yet of the same substance or essence. I also know or understand that the Father has no origin that is to say that the Father has always existed. I also understand that the Son is begotten of the Father. The Holy Spirit I am thinking somehow proceeds from either the Father to the Son or proceeds from Both the Father and Son. I understand that the Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father but not from the Son, yet, The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. In one way the Son and the Holy Spirit come from the Father and are all one God, three Persons distinct yet the same. It is a real mystery to say the least in trying to understand how this is so. It is like saying how does one exist without the other? If the Son and the Father share the same substance or essence does not the Holy Spirit therefore also Share the same substance of the Father as well as the Son? Or does the Holy Spirit share only the Father but not the Son? It seems to me that somehow all three share that is the Son and the Holy Spirit share with the Father being the origin.

 

[Richca]

You wrote “If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son.” If the consubstantiality of all three persons means that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from both the Father and the Son, and not from the Father alone, then why does the consubstantiality of all three persons not also mean that the Son takes his origin from both the Father and and the Holy Spirit, and not from the Father alone?

Hello ryanblack,
The simple answer to your question is that the Catholic faith tells us that the Son takes his origin from the Father only. There is a certain order of origin in the Trinity: the first person of the Trinity is God the Father who is from no one. The second person of the Trinity is God the Son who is from the Father alone. The third person of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit who is from both the Father and the Son equally.
Even though all three persons of the Trinity are simultaneous with each other, because of this order of origin in the Trinity, it wouldn’t make any sense to say that the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, comes from the first and third person of the Trinity because two comes before three which is why God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, can only take his origin from the Father.
God the Father is called God the Father because He alone is the origin of His only begotten Son.

 

[RyanBlack]

Hello ryanblack,
The simple answer to your question is that the Catholic faith tells us that the Son takes his origin from the Father only. There is a certain order of origin in the Trinity: the first person of the Trinity is God the Father who is from no one. The second person of the Trinity is God the Son who is from the Father alone. The third person of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit who is from both the Father and the Son equally.
Even though all three persons of the Trinity are simultaneous with each other, because of this order of origin in the Trinity, it wouldn’t make any sense to say that the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, comes from the first and third person of the Trinity because two comes before three which is why God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, can only take his origin from the Father.
God the Father is called God the Father because He alone is the origin of His only begotten Son.

I’m aware of all this. I posed my question to point out the problem in saying that the Spirit must proceed from both the Father and the Son because of the consubstantiality of the Father amd the Son.

 

[RyanBlack]

I should add that I believe that to say that the Spirit proceeds “equally” from the Father and the Son can be problematic. The monarchy of the Father must be affirmed.

 

[Richca]

I should add that I believe that to say that the Spirit proceeds “equally” from the Father and the Son can be problematic. The monarchy of the Father must be affirmed.

hello ryanblack,
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons of the Trinity are God whole and entire, equal to one another (CCC#253 & #245).
“Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16). (CCC#266).

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature {1}. The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end; the Father generating, the Son being born, and the holy Spirit proceeding; consubstantial and coequal, co-omnipotent and coeternal; one principle of all things…” (4th Lateran Council, Confession of Faith).

 

[Vico]

I could have chosen my words better, nonetheless to claim the dual procession on the basis that the Father and Son are the same substance also must argue for an auto-genesis of some sort, since the Holy Spirit is also of the same substance.

The western Church teaches that the Father alone is the Source, Principal, and Cause Aition of the Holy Spirit.

Do you mean other than Aition?

 

[Nine_Two]

The western Church teaches that the Father alone is the Source, Principal, and Cause Aition of the Holy Spirit.

Do you mean other than Aition?

I’m speaking specifically to Spina’s comments here. From my perspective what the Latin Church actually teaches is irrelevant to this side discussion.

 

[Nine_Two]

Hi Nine Two: If I wrote that the Holy Spirit was created I am sorry as I did not mean that at all. What I am trying to say is that if the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same substance or essence than they are co-consubstantial with the Father who is the origin. It seems to me that to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father is like saying that Christ the Son of God has no Spirit and is really not one with the Father which is contrary to what Jesus Himself said.

Since Jesus Himself said the He and the Father are one and that all that the Father has was given to Him(Christ) all that the Son has is given to the Father, how then can the Holy Spirit come only from the Father but not from the Son? If the Son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the Son then the Holy Spirit must then be one with both the Father and the Son which means that the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son. To say that the Holy Spirit comes only from the Father means that the Son is less than what He says He is and is not one with the Father.

edit: Ryan answered better than I can.

This conversation illustrates my personal issues with the Filioque quite well. It isn’t clear and it only muddies the waters.

 

[spina1953]

Hello ryanblack,
The simple answer to your question is that the Catholic faith tells us that the Son takes his origin from the Father only. There is a certain order of origin in the Trinity: the first person of the Trinity is God the Father who is from no one. The second person of the Trinity is God the Son who is from the Father alone. The third person of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit who is from both the Father and the Son equally.
Even though all three persons of the Trinity are simultaneous with each other, because of this order of origin in the Trinity, it wouldn’t make any sense to say that the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, comes from the first and third person of the Trinity because two comes before three which is why God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, can only take his origin from the Father.
God the Father is called God the Father because He alone is the origin of His only begotten Son.

Hi Richca: I agree with your posts. Viro in his post used Pope Paul II’s statement that says that all three of the Trinity are consubstantial. This makes some sense to me. Since the Father is the origin having not come from anything and is eternal, and the Son comes from the Father, yet is also eternal and the Holy Spirit who is also eternal comes from I think the love between the Father and the Son. While the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are truly God and distinct and separate, they are nonetheless equal and also one God, that is to say Three Persons in One God.

I wonder what the Apostles think about this and how they understood this mystery of the Trinity. I do not think that they would have tried to understand procession substance or essence, or for that matter Origin in that they knew that the Father is God and that the Son is God made man, and that Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit who is also God, who comes from the Father just as the Son comes from the Father. I wonder why it is so important to understand procession between the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? If we believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are Three Persons in one God and are distinct but one why do we need to know and understand who comes from where? Does it help in ones salvation to know exactly whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son? Why is that so important? is it not enough to just believe that the Trinity is three Persons in one God?