fililoque

[Gabriel_of_12]

I’ve come up with an analogy to explain the filioque. Opinions on it are welcomed

Filioque is this :

[In some crazy world where water systems work like this] There are three components to this system namely The Sea, The Rivers and The Ponds. Now the Sea (Father) is the ultimate source of all water(Divinity). The water in the sea is not fixated in the sea but flows to the rivers and ponds. How this happens is that the water(Divinity) flows from the seas into the rivers (Son). The rivers then in turn allow for the water to flow to the ponds (Holy Spirit). Now it can be said that the source of the water in the pond is the sea. This is true as all water in this system finds its ultimate origin/source in the sea. However it can also be said that the water in the pond finds its source from the river because without the river, the water from the sea could not reach the pond. It is from the river that the pond receives its water. Thus it is true to say the water in the pond is from the sea and the river. The sea and the river are both components in the flow (Spiration) of water and thus they are one principal from which the pond received its water.

Excellent analogy. Your analogy reminds of the three streams (rivers) from heaven that is reflected in the blessed Trinity, how one font pours into the other fonts, never divided but distinct from one another, the fonts are joined as one by the water (divinity).

How would you reflect “theologically, mystically” that does not conflict with the doctrine of the filioque, When you have the river and the pond receiving their source (water) from the sea. I can see the procession being made known in space and time here;

But can one reflect the procession revealed mystically eternally? If you don’t mind me respectfully adding a comment to your beautiful analogy? The eternal procession from your analogy, from what I reflect is that one that is unseen, which is reflective of the eternal procession, by the air and clouds in the invisible transpiration that mystically connects all three sources, beginning with the sea, to the river to the pond, where all of creation drinks life from the source, water.

I mention this because the procession is revealed in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity gives name to the procession. In what is consubstantial with the Father and from the Father of all three persons does not proceed, in short the Father proceeds from no one, for the Monarch is the source and beginning, here we are not discussing procession but the Essence of God which does not come down to us, God’s presence is made known in the person’s of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I can meditate a reflection of the filioque in the simple prayer in the signing of the Cross.

Your analogy has triggered much reflection on the Trinity for me, thank you so much, I hope you can add more;

peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No, my teacher at a Catholic University has died already. The best teacher I ever had.
Yes, wikipedia is full of errors but all in all, provides an introduction to subjects.
I read the articles. I have read the subject for the 5th or 6th time. It is a question that on and off comes into my way. The other day was discussing this in Internet with a crazy greek who hated catholics all because of the “filioque”.
This is a subject that makes me sad. Unlike the Reformation, which touched many subjects and made a profound revolution, this is such a small topic and I am sad to see christians divided because of that. Moreover, because of the opening of Russia, there will be fights among the orthodox who think the catholic are invading their private domain and the Catholic Church. This when we could be all together against atheism.
Jesus, Son of God, make us one flock under your guidance !

Amen jshalom, I am with you on this one. The filioque when understood correctly and interpreted correctly as the Church teaches, there should not be any division over the filioque which is an excuse for some to re-butt the authority of the Church’s Magisterium.

But there is a solution for the Orthodox to not be threatened by ficticious Roman Catholic invasion, now that Pope JPII was instrumental in opening the flood gates of Russia.

Vatican II proclaims that through ecumenical efforts, Latins are not to convert Orthodox to Latins and vice versa. This message from Vatican II has to be made known to them. We seek ecumenical dialogue for full communion, not to convert them to Latins.

Peace be with you

 

[spina1953]

I have a couple of ways in which I understand the Trinity. One is this way: The Father is the Will; origin, and the Son is the Word which gives expression to the Will, and the Holy Spirit gives the truth of the Fathers Will and the Expression of the Word, The Son.

Another way in which I understand the Trinity is the Father the origin, Is Love, Loving the Son and the Son loves the Father and the Holy Spirit gives the truth of that Love between the Father and the Son and Between the Son and the Father.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have a couple of ways in which I understand the Trinity. One is this way: The Father is the Will; origin, and the Son is the Word which gives expression to the Will, and the Holy Spirit gives the truth of the Fathers Will and the Expression of the Word, The Son.

Another way in which I understand the Trinity is the Father the origin, Is Love, Loving the Son and the Son loves the Father and the Holy Spirit gives the truth of that Love between the Father and the Son and Between the Son and the Father.

The will of the Father and the will of the Son is huge when it comes to the Love in the Trinity.

The Word does the Will of the Father and brings the Father’s Will to fulfillment. The eternal procession does not limit God’s Will according to human standards who would try and place God in a box.

When the Son in the Father’s Will Love’s the Father and the Father Loves the Son, the filioque is eternally present making Truth known.

**For the Spirit to eternally proceed only from the Father and not the Son, as the Orthodox out of communion with Peter only hold 's to. Places the Son in contradiction to the Father and the Spirit as being One God.

In layman terms it would be like God speaking His Word without His breath to give life, when all of Creation came through the Word (Son).**

The filioque confirms Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. The filioque confirms God the Father in His voice, God the Son in His Word, and God the Holy Spirit the breath of God who is Lord the giver of life in and from the filioque.

The filioque reveals all three persons in the blessed Trinity distinct persons, not divided or separated One God.

To separate the Word of God from the breath of God is inconceivable. The Word is the only begotten of the Father who sends the Son who is the Word of God. The Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son proceeds and from the Word (Son) to make known that which the Son sends the Spirit from the Father.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It appears the filioque is a difficult subject to discuss with the Orthodox without some theological and spiritual discussion after;

Our OP posted this;
“not to be to limiting, but i’d rather stay away from theological and spiritual discussions on the fililoque and focus more on the political and historical aspects,”

sorry.
hope that’s ok with everyone

It is never a political secular venture , when the Church battles not the flesh but powers and principalities, when the Catholic Church with the filioque defeated an Eastern heresy (Arianism) who tried to infect the Nicene Creed professed in the West, by misinterpreting that Jesus is not God from the Nicene Creed, because the Heretics were proving from the Creed that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from Jesus and only the Father, therefore Jesus is not God.

The Pope and the magisterium never changed the Nicene Creed nor did they add to the Nicene Creed. The filioque was inserted to point to the Creed in what is professed in Consubstantiality between the Father and the Son, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as professed in the consubstantiality from the Creed.

Inserting the filioque does not change the Creed, nor does it add to the creed. The filioque clarifies from the Creed that Jesus is God. It is that simple. With the filioque no heretic or heresy can ever infect the Nicene Creed again.

Clarifying what is already professed in the Creed is never changing the Creed, nor adds to the Creed.

If one is holding to such a false judgment, then that judgment has to go all the way back and remove many of the items in the Nicene Creed today; When they were added to the Creed and changed the Creed from the beginning.

Besides before the Nicene Creed was made, the West has always used the Apostles Creed since apostolic times, to today, which predates the Nicene Creed. You can’t get more Orthodox than the Apostles Creed which we still use today in the Latin Rite.

Peter commissioned by Jesus Christ alone, to tend, feed both His lambs and sheep, protected, and defended the sheep fold of Jesus Christ with the filioque, from being infected with heresy.

How can one mistakenly make the binding and loosing on earth by Peter and His keys Jesus gives him, and the binding and loosing by Jesus in heaven, as if it were a political circumstance?

Can somebody help me and the OP here? how is defeating a heresy in the Church a political secular thing???

Who is the political party involved here that places the heresy and the one who removes the heresy?

I hope the Orthodox are not comparing secular political things to Spiritual reality things?

Peace be with you

 

[jshalom]

Amen jshalom, I am with you on this one. The filioque when understood correctly and interpreted correctly as the Church teaches, there should not be any division over the filioque which is an excuse for some to re-butt the authority of the Church’s Magisterium.

But there is a solution for the Orthodox to not be threatened by ficticious Roman Catholic invasion, now that Pope JPII was instrumental in opening the flood gates of Russia.

Vatican II proclaims that through ecumenical efforts, Latins are not to convert Orthodox to Latins and vice versa. This message from Vatican II has to be made known to them. We seek ecumenical dialogue for full communion, not to convert them to Latins.

Peace be with you

As with many wars in today’s world, eye for an eye makes everybody blind. The only solution I see is Jesus teaching: forgive 70X7.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

As with many wars in today’s world, eye for an eye makes everybody blind. The only solution I see is Jesus teaching: forgive 70X7.

Agreed, but how does one begin to forgive when they don’t speak?

To forgive is to become a Martyr for the Faith. Who is the first to go down the path of the master, apostles and saints? Talking speaks of faith, action is living our faith.

Peace be with you

 

[marywarfield]

Yes I gathered that in addition to the creation week when God speaks and sends His Word.

When the Word is God and the Word became flesh. How is the eternal procession revealed? Your question was; If the Spirit ONLY proceeds from the Father and NOT the Son, that procession only from the Father would make the begotten Son not the Word, and divides the blessed Trinity, making the Son a creature of God.

When we profess the consubstantiation of all three persons of the blessed Trinity.

The question is still not answered in my view, Has it been answered in your view, from the Orthodox?

Exactly. It would make of Christ a creation rather
than the only begotten.
Thank you Gabriel. And no- no response.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

When the Son in the Father’s Will Love’s the Father and the Father Loves the Son, the filioque is eternally present making Truth known.

Huh? The filioque is eternally present making the Truth known? Now you are making a hypostasis out of a clause???

None of this post makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Huh? The filioque is eternally present making the Truth known? Now you are making a hypostasis out of a clause???

None of this post makes any sense whatsoever.

It doesn’t make any sense to the Early Fathers who write about the eternal procession or it doesn’t make any sense to your personal opinion of the eternal procession?

Explain what makes sense to you in regards to the eternal procession and lets’ compare notes

 

[spina1953]

The will of the Father and the will of the Son is huge when it comes to the Love in the Trinity.

The Word does the Will of the Father and brings the Father’s Will to fulfillment. The eternal procession does not limit God’s Will according to human standards who would try and place God in a box.

When the Son in the Father’s Will Love’s the Father and the Father Loves the Son, the filioque is eternally present making Truth known.

**For the Spirit to eternally proceed only from the Father and not the Son, as the Orthodox out of communion with Peter only hold 's to. Places the Son in contradiction to the Father and the Spirit as being One God.

In layman terms it would be like God speaking His Word without His breath to give life, when all of Creation came through the Word (Son).**

The filioque confirms Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. The filioque confirms God the Father in His voice, God the Son in His Word, and God the Holy Spirit the breath of God who is Lord the giver of life in and from the filioque.

The filioque reveals all three persons in the blessed Trinity distinct persons, not divided or separated One God.

To separate the Word of God from the breath of God is inconceivable. The Word is the only begotten of the Father who sends the Son who is the Word of God. The Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son proceeds and from the Word (Son) to make known that which the Son sends the Spirit from the Father.

Peace be with you

Hi Gabriel of 12: My computer was down for a few days so was not able to answer anting posted. That being said I agree with you 100% and you made great sense ! peace and God Bless