Filioque and Purgatory

[ralphinal]

I hate to ask these questions again, but I need a little help.

As far as the filioque goes, is this a true statement? If so, does it alter anyone’s position on it? SHould it?

a regional council in Persia in 410 introduced one of the earliest forms of the filioque in the Creed; the council specified that the Spirit proceeds from the Father “and from the Son.”. Coming from the rich theology of early East Syrian Christianity, this expression in this context is authentically Eastern. Therefore, according to Grohe, the filioque cannot be attacked as a solely Western innovation, nor as something created by the Pope.

Also, According to some of the research that I have done, purgatory, as I understand the Catholic teaching on it, is from the Jewish fathers of our faith. Why would it not be acceptable to E.O. if it is from the old guys way back when?

 

[East_and_West]

I hate to ask these questions again, but I need a little help.

As far as the filioque goes, is this a true statement? If so, does it alter anyone’s position on it? SHould it?

Also, According to some of the research that I have done, purgatory, as I understand the Catholic teaching on it, is from the Jewish fathers of our faith. Why would it not be acceptable to E.O. if it is from the old guys way back when?

Not all Eastern Catholics reject the truth of the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son nor do they all reject purgatory. The only ones who reject these things are the rebellious ones.

 

[ralphinal]

Not all Eastern Catholics reject the truth of the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son nor do they all reject purgatory. The only ones who reject these things are the rebellious ones.

Thanks. I guess that those are the ones that I wanted to hear from…although I have trouble calling them that.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Why would it not be acceptable to E.O. if it is from the old guys way back when?

I’m not sure why the EO bretheren don’t openly support the existence of Purgatory, after all, they do pray for the dead. Why do you pray for the dead if they are in Hell or are in Heaven? It doesn’t make sesne if Purgatory does not exist.

 

[yeshua]

Thanks. I guess that those are the ones that I wanted to hear from…although I have trouble calling them that.

For good reason, E&W is certainly not representative of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic communities…not at all.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

ralphinal,

recently, the Chaldean Catholic Church revised her liturgy and the Church asked us to go back to the creed without the Filioque clause. You can read about it here. God Bless.

 

[East_and_West]

For good reason, E&W is certainly not representative of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic communities…not at all.

And our friend who calls himself “yeshua” here is not representative of the Catholic faith. Rather, he espouses the divergent views found among the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

 

[ralphinal]

And our friend who calls himself “yeshua” here is not representative of the Catholic faith. Rather, he espouses the divergent views found among the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

But that is who I want to hear from…E.O. folks

 

[ralphinal]

ralphinal,

recently, the Chaldean Catholic Church revised her liturgy and the Church asked us to go back to the creed without the Filioque clause. You can read about it here. God Bless.

Ok. That seems to be part of a return to the old ways, not anything theological. Right?

 

[yeshua]

And our friend who calls himself “yeshua” here is not representative of the Catholic faith. Rather, he espouses the divergent views found among the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Considering I am an Oriental Catholic who doesn’t even believe along Eastern views, this conclusion is rather funny.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Ok. That seems to be part of a return to the old ways, not anything theological. Right?

There is no theological problem here, it was the Church *insisting, *effectively, we de-latinize this portion of our Rite.

As Fr. Andy Younan writes:

**Q – Why was the Creed changed to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds “from the Father,” rather than “from the Father and the Son?” **
A – This is another instance of the Holy See asking us to “return to our roots.” The original form of the Nicene Creed says that the Holy Spirit proceeds “from the Father.” The phrase “and the Son” was added, in the West, in the following centuries. Though it is quite true to say that the Spirit proceeds from both the “Father and the Son,” the Eastern Church, encouraged by the Holy See, has asked us to return to the original form of the Creed.

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not sure why the EO bretheren don’t openly support the existence of Purgatory, after all, they do pray for the dead. Why do you pray for the dead if they are in Hell or are in Heaven? It doesn’t make sesne if Purgatory does not exist.

I agree. Someone on here told me that there are some theological speculations called “toll houses” where the dead can be clensed, but nothing concrete. I really want some explination

 

[East_and_West]

Considering I am an Oriental Catholic who doesn’t even believe along Eastern views, this conclusion is rather funny.

According to some of the orientaal catholics that I have spoken with, the OO churches and the OC Churches that came from them were influenced by the EO church. Thus you get things like the rejection of the filioque and the introduction of the essence/energies distinction into Oriental theology. I am not sure if that is true.

 

[East_and_West]

There is no theological problem here, it was the Church *insisting, *effectively, we de-latinize this portion of our Rite.

As Fr. Andy Younan writes:

Nothing wrong with this.

 

[ralphinal]

There is no theological problem here, it was the Church *insisting, *effectively, we de-latinize this portion of our Rite.

As Fr. Andy Younan writes:

Personally, I am glad that the Church wants you to have your own Rite, free from Latinization. The history is too rich not to.

 

[East_and_West]

Personally, I am glad that the Church wants you to have your own Rite, free from Latinization. The history is too rich not to.

AMEN!!!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Personally, I am glad that the Church wants you to have your own Rite, free from Latinization. The history is too rich not to.

I would not say Latinizations are all bad, for instance, the Rosary, the incredible prayer which comes from the Latin rite, is a treasure and should be shared amongst all in the CC. There are other things that, yes, I agree, should not be changed, like the way we do the rite of peace in the Maronite and Chaldean rites. In fact, I have seen many Latin catholics, priests included, that wished they would easternize this portion of the Qurbana(Mass, Divine Liturgy) into the Latin rite. Namely because this form of “peace”, the visual action in the Latin rite, looks exactly like the same “peace” between any two random people outside the setting of a Eucharistic celebration.

 

[ralphinal]

I would not say Latinizations are all bad, for instance, the Rosary, the incredible prayer which comes from the Latin rite, is a treasure and should be shared amongst all in the CC. There are other things that, yes, I agree, should not be changed, like the way we do the rite of peace in the Maronite and Chaldean rites. In fact, I have seen many Latin catholics, priests included, that wished they would easternize this portion of the Qurbana(Mass, Divine Liturgy) into the Latin rite. Namely because this form of “peace”, the visual action in the Latin rite, looks exactly like the same “peace” between any two random people outside the setting of a Eucharistic celebration.

I guess that we should say that the rich history should be retained and added to by the beauty that we have.

 

[yeshua]

According to some of the orientaal catholics that I have spoken with, the OO churches and the OC Churches that came from them were influenced by the EO church. Thus you get things like the rejection of the filioque and the introduction of the essence/energies distinction into Oriental theology. I am not sure if that is true.

According to the, I don’t know, Eparchy and Maronite Catholic Church in the United States that I do work for, Oriental Catholics, specifically Maronites, have been quite capable of warding off Hellenization (though there is the exception of the Church in Cyprus). We are even known in the non-Catholic Oriental communities for being so.

I have resources for you if you are interested.

BTW, Orientals do not even make an energy distinction, as you claim.

Peace and God Bless!

 

[East_and_West]

interested.

BTW, Orientals do not even make an energy distinction, as you claim.

Peace and God Bless!

I have experienced some who do. And no thank you for the reading. If its simply more propoganda for those who deviate from the teachings of the Church, then I have heard it all before.