Filioque (the details)

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In fact, it seems to me (and forgive me if it sounds too crass…I really am just trying to understand), that to actually deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father would be to deny the diety of Christ. Do I have a wrong perspective? Please do clarify things if I seem to. Again, maybe I’m just simplifying things too much. But then, I don’t claim to be a theologian. 🤷
Yes, that was the concern of the Latin Church. The whole issue to the Latin Church was divinity, which belongs to the essence (ousia) of the Godhead. As noted earlier, to the Latins, It was about the ousia, not the hypostasis.

Do you understand the distinction between ousia and hypostasis?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I imagine hypostasis is a derivative of the “hypostatic” in “hypostatic union”? But I’m unclear about “ousia” unless it’s Italian for “ouch!” :D.

But seriously, folks. Btw, ByzCathCantor…thank you for the welcome. I haven’t posted in the CAL forums for a while, although I belong to the Clean Jokes group and another one for single celibate men. I post regularly in The Coming Home Network Inernational forums as their feel is more geared to basics and due to the nature of their aim (which is different from CAL), seem a bit more charitable (i.e. less argumentative, since their main priority is not so much apologetics).

Anyway, I used to post a lot here a long time ago, but people got a bit too personal and negative and not so charitable, and a lot of people simply sharing opinion rather than actual documented Church doctrine. I’m sure it’s probably different now.

But getting back to the topic at hand, I understand the basics of the purpose for the “S” word event ;). That much I remember from Bible College, I guess I just forgot about the key terms “from” and “through”. I guess The Holy Spirit proceeds however He proceeds whether I understand it or not. 😉 I figure for me it’s not that important of an issue…because really all we are speaking of here is a difference in understanding, right? And ultimately, the actual truth of it is what it is. However, I do find it interesting.

Thank you for all your answers. I haven’t been in the College mode for years so it’s not so easy for me to muddle through all the theological terms, historical data, etc. However, some things just seem to stay with you over the years. Thanks again. 👍
 
The Council of Chalcedon determined that in Christ the two natures are united in one subsistence and one person, the phase is “eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin”.

At Chalcedon three different expressions met the Christological definition, the three:

Rome: Tome of Leo gives the unambiguous statement of the two natures of Christ. The cooperation of the two natures in “the one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” as in 1 Timothy 2:5.

Alexandria: the consciousness of Christ is that of the divine mind that has condescended to operate in a human being. Formula of Reunion in Letter of Cyril to John of Antioch - the two natures are separate only in the sense that the human mind has to think of them separately (“two in contemplation alone”) yet the differences between the natures are not annulled by the union.

Antioch: the consciousness of Christ is a human consciousness of one recognizing the dignity received of being united to the eternal Son.

The Definition from Chalcedon:Following, therefore, the holy fathers, we all in harmony teach confession of one and the same Son our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and the same perfect in manhood, truly God and the same truly man, of a rational soul and body, consubstantial with the Father in respect of the Godhead, and the same consubstantial with us in respect of the manhood, like us in all things apart from sin, begotten from the Father before the ages in respect of the Godhead, and the same in the last days for us and for our salvation from the Virgin Mary the Theotokos in respect of the manhood, one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Onlybegotten, acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation (the difference of the natures being in no way destroyed by the union, but rather the distinctive character of each nature being preserved and coming together into one person and one hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, Only-begotten, God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
I guess simply put, I’ve always understood the hypostatic union to simply be a statement of belief about the fact that Jesus is both human and divine. However, I can see a whole plethora of complex theology surrounding just the relationship between His two natures.
 
I happen to be reading through the Catechism of Trent and I just passed the part of the creed which says “Which Proceedeth from the Father and the Son.”

So here is a little cut and paste.
With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.
Christ the Lord, speaking of the Holy Ghost, says: He shall glorify me, because he shall receive of mine. We also find that the Holy Ghost is sometimes called in Scripture the Spirit of Christ, sometimes, the Spirit of the Father; that He is one time said to be sent by the Father, another time, by the Son, – all of which clearly signifies that He proceeds alike from the Father and the Son. He, says St. Paul, who has not the Spirit of Christ belongs not to him. In his Epistle to the Galatians he also calls the Holy Ghost the Spirit of Christ: God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. In the Gospel of St. Matthew, He is called the Spirit of the Father: It is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.
Our Lord said, at His Last Supper: When the Paraclete cometh whom I will send you, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. On another occasion, that the Holy Ghost will be sent by the Father, He declares in these words: whom the Father will send in my name. Understanding these words to denote the procession of the Holy Ghost, we come to the inevitable conclusion that He proceeds from both Father and Son.
The above are the truths that should be taught with regard to the Person of the Holy Ghost.
 
I happen to be reading through the Catechism of Trent and I just passed the part of the creed which says “Which Proceedeth from the Father and the Son.”

So here is a little cut and paste.
Yes, if they had just said ‘through the Son’ instead of ‘and the Son’ the dispute would not be so serious.
 
Yes, if they had just said ‘through the Son’ instead of ‘and the Son’ the dispute would not be so serious.
They could not say through because of the belief in both the temporal procession (economy) and the internal procession (Son from the Father, Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son), while recognizing the Father as arche or aitia of both the Son and Holy Spirit.
 
They could not say through because of the belief in both the temporal procession (economy) and the internal procession (Son from the Father, Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son), while recognizing the Father as arche or aitia of both the Son and Holy Spirit.
Wait, wait, wait. So the filioque does state that the eternal, internal procession of the Holy Spirit is both from the Father and the Son? I thought that was a misconception of Catholic dogma, and of the filioque in general. :confused::confused::confused:
 
Dear brother ThatOneGuy92,
Wait, wait, wait. So the filioque does state that the eternal, internal procession of the Holy Spirit is both from the Father and the Son? I thought that was a misconception of Catholic dogma, and of the filioque in general. :confused::confused::confused:
Yes, the filioque does teach that the eternal, internal procession of the Holy Spirit is from both the Father and the Son, because the communication of the ousia within the Godhead is - no doubt about it - a matter of the internal workings of God.

The Fathers are unanimous that the ousia or substance of the Holy Spirit is from the Son as a mediating agency from the Father (the Father has given all He has to the Son [except to be the Father], and the Spirit receives all He has from the Son [except to be the Son]).

This is different from the generation (if you will) of the hypostasis of the persons which is from the Father alone.

As stated, the distinction between the Latin and Greek understanding of the Creed is that the Latins believe the fateful line refers to the ousia, while the Greeks believe the fateful line refers to the hypostasis. Both are perfectly orthodox senses in which to understand the Creed.

The Latin Creed is expilcit that the divine essence flows from the Father and the Son as one principle while implying that the Father alone is Source.

The Greek Creed is explicit that the Father alone is Source, while only implying that the divine essence is communicated to the Holy Spirit from the Son.

I believe the deficiency in certain quarters of MODERN EO (not EC) Trinitarianism is that there is a current failure among many of its apologists to understand that what is ETERNAL is simultaneously INTERNAL. Eastern sources such as the Synod of Blacharnae and St. Palamas are very explicit that the manifestation or energetic procession (as distinct from the hypostatic procession) of the Holy Spirit from the Son is ETERNAL. That AUTOMATICALLY makes it an INTERNAL working of the Godhead. But you will find modern EO polemicists (as distinct from her apologists who I believe understand the nuance of which I am speaking and do not so readily accuse the Latins of heresy or heterodoxy) today make a false distinction between “eternal” and “internal” to the point that you will find not a few claim that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit from the Son is a merely TEMPORAL activity of the Godhead, in direct opposition to their own cherished sources.

I have asked and asked and asked and asked, but when faced with the fact that their own sources assert that the manifestation or energetic procession of the Spirit from the Son is ETERNAL, no EO who accuses the Latins of heterodoxy for the use of filioque can give any proof nor reason for their modern claim that the Son is related to the Spirit only in terms of the external, temporal activity of the Godhead.

I believe it is relatively easy to reconcile ancient Eastern sources with the Latin teaching on filioque when one understands the distinction between the Greek focus on the hypostasis and the Latin focus on the ousia. But certain modern EO are introducing novel arguments into the debate that have no relation to the concerns of their forbears and serve no other purpose but to perpetuate disunity.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
For a simple person like myslef, I find it best to remember that: “proceeds” has two different meanings.

In the Orthodox tradition: proceeds means “has its source”. As in the Father is the Source of the Son & the Spirit.

In the Catholic tradition: proceeds means “is sent”. As in the Father sends the Spirit through the Son.

The tower of Babel curse of human languages carries on…
 
Dear brother ThatOneGuy92,

Yes, the filioque does teach that the eternal, internal procession of the Holy Spirit is from both the Father and the Son, because the communication of the ousia within the Godhead is - no doubt about it - a matter of the internal workings of God.

The Fathers are unanimous that the ousia or substance of the Holy Spirit is from the Son as a mediating agency from the Father (the Father has given all He has to the Son [except to be the Father], and the Spirit receives all He has from the Son [except to be the Son]).

This is different from the generation (if you will) of the hypostasis of the persons which is from the Father alone.

As stated, the distinction between the Latin and Greek understanding of the Creed is that the Latins believe the fateful line refers to the ousia, while the Greeks believe the fateful line refers to the hypostasis. Both are perfectly orthodox senses in which to understand the Creed.

The Latin Creed is expilcit that the divine essence flows from the Father and the Son as one principle while implying that the Father alone is Source.

The Greek Creed is explicit that the Father alone is Source, while only implying that the divine essence is communicated to the Holy Spirit from the Son.

I believe the deficiency in certain quarters of MODERN EO (not EC) Trinitarianism is that there is a current failure among many of its apologists to understand that what is ETERNAL is simultaneously INTERNAL. Eastern sources such as the Synod of Blacharnae and St. Palamas are very explicit that the manifestation or energetic procession (as distinct from the hypostatic procession) of the Holy Spirit from the Son is ETERNAL. That AUTOMATICALLY makes it an INTERNAL working of the Godhead. But you will find modern EO polemicists (as distinct from her apologists who I believe understand the nuance of which I am speaking and do not so readily accuse the Latins of heresy or heterodoxy) today make a false distinction between “eternal” and “internal” to the point that you will find not a few claim that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit from the Son is a merely TEMPORAL activity of the Godhead, in direct opposition to their own cherished sources.

I have asked and asked and asked and asked, but when faced with the fact that their own sources assert that the manifestation or energetic procession of the Spirit from the Son is ETERNAL, no EO who accuses the Latins of heterodoxy for the use of filioque can give any proof nor reason for their modern claim that the Son is related to the Spirit only in terms of the external, temporal activity of the Godhead.

I believe it is relatively easy to reconcile ancient Eastern sources with the Latin teaching on filioque when one understands the distinction between the Greek focus on the hypostasis and the Latin focus on the ousia. But certain modern EO are introducing novel arguments into the debate that have no relation to the concerns of their forbears and serve no other purpose but to perpetuate disunity.

Blessings,
Marduk
Surely you must realize, however, that the synod of Blachernae has something around eleven anathemas directed at the filioque. Also, understood through the lens of Palamas, the energetic manifestation of the Spirit is eternal but cannot be internal, as that word is associated with ousia, not energeia by Palamas.
 
The Latin Church conception of the internal processions is based upon the decisions of the Council of Nicea from con-substantial (homousius). The external procession is the economy. The internal procession is a communication, note that hypostasis is incommunicable.

One can readily see the Latin conception of the internal processions, expressed in modern terms, in Fr. Hardon Modern Catholic Dictionary.

PROCESSION. The origin of one from another. A procession is said to be external when the terminus of the procession goes outside the principle or source from which it proceeds. Thus creatures proceed by external procession from the triune God, their Primary Origin. An internal procession is immanent; the one proceeding remains united with the one from whom he or she proceeds. Thus the processions of the Son and the Holy Spirit are an immanent act of the Holy Trinity. An internal, divine procession signifies the origin of a divine person from another divine person (Son from the Father), or from other divine persons (the Holy Spirit from Father and Son) through the communication of numerically one and the same divine essence.

HYPOSTASIS. An individual, complete substance existing entirely in itself; an incommunicable substance. The term used by the Church to identify the persons in the Trinity and the union of two natures in one divine person in Christ. A person is a hypostasis endowed with reason. Moreover, hypostasis and nature are related to each other in such a manner that the hypostasis is the bearer of the nature and the ultimate subject of all being and acting, while the nature is that through which the hypostasis exists and acts. (Etym. Latin hypostasis, basis; single substance; rational single substance, person; Greek hypostasis, support, foundation, substance, sediment.)

ESSENCE. What a thing is. The internal principle whereby a thing is what it is and not something else. Sometimes essence is said to be the same thing as being, but being merely, affirming that a thing is, without specifying its perfections. Essence is not quite the same as nature, which adds to essence the notion of activity, i.e., nature is the essence in action. Or again essence is substance, but not all essences are substantial because accidents also have an essence. (Etym. Latin essentia, essence, being.)

CCC

465 The first heresies denied not so much Christ’s divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God’s Son “come in the flesh”.87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is “begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father”, and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God “came to be from things that were not” and that he was “from another substance” than that of the Father.88
 
Surely you must realize, however, that the synod of Blachernae has something around eleven anathemas directed at the filioque. Also, understood through the lens of Palamas, the energetic manifestation of the Spirit is eternal but cannot be internal, as that word is associated with ousia, not energeia by Palamas.
They anathemas can be read here:Exposition of the Tomus of Faith Against Beccus From Aristeides Papadakis: Crisis in Byzantium: The Filioque Controversy in the Patriarchate of Gregory II of Cyprus (1283-1289)

reocities.com/heartland/5654/orthodox/tomos1285.html
 
Is there any document from the past two millennia that you don’t have a source for? 😃

Thank you for providing that link.
Cavaradossi, I don’t think so. Vico is a pretty much a living library- seems to know every book and their details, down to the page. 😃
 
The Latin Church conception of the internal processions is based upon the decisions of the Council of Nicea from con-substantial (homousius). The external procession is the economy. The internal procession is a communication, note that hypostasis is incommunicable.
:dts:A human being is composite; we have for example left and right brains, etc. These halves communicate in order for “one” person to exist. Note, by extension: the incarnation IS STILL one “hypostasis” – eg: the “son”; therefore there must be communication for Jesus to be a single “God man” PERSON.
One can readily see the Latin conception of the internal processions, expressed in modern terms, in Fr. Hardon Modern Catholic Dictionary.
PROCESSION. The origin of one from another. A procession is said to be external when the terminus of the procession goes outside the principle or source from which it proceeds.
:ouch:
A principle, in the English sense of the word is a statement which works by “Excluding” other possibilities. For example: The principle, in physics, of least action – suggests an understanding based on excluding actions which are “maximum”. In visual processing fields, the “Hemholtz Principle” is stated succintly – “One can’t SEE significant information in pure noise”. (Therefore: If you see significant information – it ISN’T Noise).
Hardon — ugh – If the terminus of the principle, then, goes “outside” the principle – the dictionary has become somewhat nonsensical. The use of “origin” is fine…
Thus creatures proceed by external procession from the triune God, their Primary Origin.

👍
An internal procession is immanent; the one proceeding remains united with the one from whom he or she proceeds. Thus the processions of the Son and the Holy Spirit are an immanent act of the Holy Trinity."
(She!!!) sheesh…
"An internal, divine procession signifies the origin of a divine person from another divine person (Son from the Father), or from other divine persons (the Holy Spirit from Father and Son) through the communication of numerically one and the same divine essence.
Procession carries with it the idea of “motion” or “act”. Hardon mentions “sign” – of a divine person from another. It is here, I think, that the Latin understanding given by Hardon is at it’s weakest. For I recognize as signs the value of a “Father” (we have human ones as examples), and Sons… And therefore there is a universal sign of Fathers being origins of “Sons” as a procession. But one can’t appeal to that kind of sign value very successfully in terms of “spirit” and “person”. I don’t outright disagree with Hardon, here, but am simply pointing out that his definition would suggest a “sign” value of 4 “persons” according to experiential discovery. ( Or else the idea of “origin” has now become equivocal. )

For in natural human beings “breath” is something that originates in each who breathe.
It is precisely here that writers such as Bp. Kallistos Ware have objections worth considering.
HYPOSTASIS.
Code:
An individual, complete substance existing entirely in itself;
an incommunicable substance.

This is nonsensical. Such an item could in no way come in contact with anything else by definition, and therefore has no existence knowable to anything else outside. This is Thomism to a fault or an UNQUALIFIED definition. Fr. Luan Tran once tried to claim to me that he “subsists” in himself – and I had to tell him, “No. You can’t.” You are in the body of Christ as a priest. Even in the Vatican documents, the use of “subsist” (exist?!) means to exist contingently. Careful study leads me to conclude that no DOGMATIC definition or usage has succeeded in raising Thomas’ conception to a definiton worthy of the Catholic population in general.
The term used by the Church to identify the persons in the Trinity and the union of two natures in one divine person in Christ. A person is a hypostasis endowed with reason. Moreover, hypostasis and nature are related to each other in such a manner that the hypostasis is the bearer of the nature and the ultimate subject of all being and acting, while the nature is that through which the hypostasis exists and acts. (Etym. Latin hypostasis
, basis; single substance; rational single substance, person; Greek hypostasis, support, foundation, substance, sediment.)
In the Greek, hypostasis often is used in scripture to represent a man, and I will recheck – but it also signifies all his immediate family – children and wife; possibly even slaves. I doubt Hardon is being respectful of Greek sentiments in his definition.
What a thing is. The internal principle whereby a thing is what it is and not something else.
A beautiful example of “principle” in the English sense, by contextual clues proving my earlier assertion…

The CCC … 👍

I think what is really being overlooked by Hardon is the simple fact that the sign value of “Spirit” (breath, ruah) is life. Just as scripture says the “Life” is in the “Blood” – I (at least) am in a position to understand even today, as with the ancients, that breath itself is “IN the blood”. To be alive requires breath – and breath has a motion – it is a ceaseless procession. It is here that the single breath between Father and Son is an analogy I would present for cross examination under both East and West and see where it leads us.
 
Dear brother in Christ Cavaradossi,
Surely you must realize, however, that the synod of Blachernae has something around eleven anathemas directed at the filioque.
Yes, I am aware of the anathemas of Blarchanae, but none of them touch upon the actual teaching of the Latin Church (can’t say for sure about Beccus). There is a definite train of thought pervading the anathemas that the Son is called “cause” in the sense that He is Source. But that is not what the Latin Church teaches about filioque. The Latins unequivocally teach that only the Father is Source. Note well that Blarchanae condemns the idea that the Son is cause of the Holy Spirit’s Essence. But it is obvious that the Synod was equating “cause” with the idea of “Source.” The Latins indeed teach that the Son is cause of the Holy Spirit’s Essence (but not His hypostasis), but what the Latins do not teach is that the Son is the Source or a Source of the Holy Spirit’s Essence. Only the Father is Source according to the Latins.
Also, understood through the lens of Palamas, the energetic manifestation of the Spirit is eternal but cannot be internal, as that word is associated with ousia, not energeia by Palamas.
If your interpretation of Palamas is true, that is where I, as an apostolic Christian of the Oriental Tradition (not as a defender of the Latin Tradition), would disagree. The idea that there can be a distinction between “internal” and “external” IN ETERNITY (i.e., a distinction of “internal” and “external” IN THE GODHEAD) is unknown to the Oriental Tradition (and, I contend, to the early Fathers). God is simple in Himself and the only distinction that the Fathers speak of in the Godhead is the distinction of Persons, nothing else.

Besides, this distinction of “internal” vs. “external” is not even found in Blarchanae (or Palamas, I gather (?)). This is a development in modern EO’xy. This is why I stated in my earlier post that the rhetoric of certain quarters of EO’xy today does not reflect the concerns of her forbears.

Further, the notion that the energeia of God can be disconnected from the ousia of God *** in ANY way as far as the Godhead itself is concerned*** is incomprehensible and cannot be found in the early Fathers. From what I have read of Palamas and Blarchanae, what they opposed was making the Son as SOURCE in any sense - whether of the ousia, the energeia, or the hypostasis. But the Latins have NEVER taught that. The key to resolving this issue of “source” versus “cause” is rather simple - one just needs to understand that though the Eastern Church does not distinguish between “source” and “cause” in its thinking, the Latin Chuch does. So the Easterns cannot automatically accuse the Latins of teaching that the Son is “the Source” or “a Source” simply because their (the Latins) theology allows them to say that the Son is “cause.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Huiou Theou,

I think the problem with the West’s theological language as far as ecumenical efforts regarding filioque is concerned is that it is much more nuanced than the East’s or Orient’s. This is especially poignant in terms of discussions on the Origin of the Holy Spirit. Westerns use language that in the Western mind does not necessarily mean the same thing to an Eastern mind, theologically speaking. Applying words such as “cause” and “origin” to the Son are very vague, especially as they have levels of meaning to the Western mind that are not apparent to the Eastern mind, theologically speaking.

Though I can understand the explanation of the Westerns, I can definitely sympathize with the concerns of the Easterns.

Blessings,
Marduk
:dts:A human being is composite; we have for example left and right brains, etc. These halves communicate in order for “one” person to exist. Note, by extension: the incarnation IS STILL one “hypostasis” – eg: the “son”; therefore there must be communication for Jesus to be a single “God man” PERSON.

One can readily see the Latin conception of the internal processions, expressed in modern terms, in Fr. Hardon Modern Catholic Dictionary.

PROCESSION. The origin of one from another. A procession is said to be external when the terminus of the procession goes outside the principle or source from which it proceeds.

:ouch:
A principle, in the English sense of the word is a statement which works by “Excluding” other possibilities. For example: The principle, in physics, of least action – suggests an understanding based on excluding actions which are “maximum”. In visual processing fields, the “Hemholtz Principle” is stated succintly – “One can’t SEE significant information in pure noise”. (Therefore: If you see significant information – it ISN’T Noise).

Hardon — ugh – If the terminus of the principle, then, goes “outside” the principle – the dictionary has become somewhat nonsensical. The use of “origin” is fine…

👍
(She!!!) sheesh…

Procession carries with it the idea of “motion” or “act”. Hardon mentions “sign” – of a divine person from another. It is here, I think, that the Latin understanding given by Hardon is at it’s weakest. For I recognize as signs the value of a “Father” (we have human ones as examples), and Sons… And therefore there is a universal sign of Fathers being origins of “Sons” as a procession. But one can’t appeal to that kind of sign value very successfully in terms of “spirit” and “person”. I don’t outright disagree with Hardon, here, but am simply pointing out that his definition would suggest a “sign” value of 4 “persons” according to experiential discovery. ( Or else the idea of “origin” has now become equivocal. )

For in natural human beings “breath” is something that originates in each who breathe.
It is precisely here that writers such as Bp. Kallistos Ware have objections worth considering.

This is nonsensical. Such an item could in no way come in contact with anything else by definition, and therefore has no existence knowable to anything else outside. This is Thomism to a fault or an UNQUALIFIED definition. Fr. Luan Tran once tried to claim to me that he “subsists” in himself – and I had to tell him, “No. You can’t.” You are in the body of Christ as a priest. Even in the Vatican documents, the use of “subsist” (exist?!) means to exist contingently. Careful study leads me to conclude that no DOGMATIC definition or usage has succeeded in raising Thomas’ conception to a definiton worthy of the Catholic population in general.

In the Greek, hypostasis often is used in scripture to represent a man, and I will recheck – but it also signifies all his immediate family – children and wife; possibly even slaves. I doubt Hardon is being respectful of Greek sentiments in his definition.

A beautiful example of “principle” in the English sense, by contextual clues proving my earlier assertion…

The CCC … 👍

I think what is really being overlooked by Hardon is the simple fact that the sign value of “Spirit” (breath, ruah) is life. Just as scripture says the “Life” is in the “Blood” – I (at least) am in a position to understand even today, as with the ancients, that breath itself is “IN the blood”. To be alive requires breath – and breath has a motion – it is a ceaseless procession. It is here that the single breath between Father and Son is an analogy I would present for cross examination under both East and West and see where it leads us.
 
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