Filioque??

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Praised be Jesus Christ!

Is the whole “Filioque clause” of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed a real doctrinal chasm, or is it more of a superficial thing?

XC
Pat
 
Praised be Jesus Christ!

Is the whole “Filioque clause” of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed a real doctrinal chasm, or is it more of a superficial thing?

XC
Pat
The “filioque” is not a part of the Nicene - Costantinopolian creed as it come out of the second of those coucils, it is a later addition by the west.

As for your question, there are other threads that cover it. It is a serious bone of contention shall we say.😉

God Bless,
R.
 
Actually, it was first added by the Orthodox Churches in Persia, not in the west. However, the controversy as we have it was between the West and East.

From my Catholic view, it is a misunderstanding that can easily be fixed.
 
Simply put: In Latin, it’s a non-issue, as the term used is able to be understood validly as “flows forth (from/through)”… but in the greek translation, the Greek used can ONLY be understood as “origniates from/with”. This greek translation is inherently heretical, but the Latin is not.

It forms the primary basis of the Anathema by Constantinople against Rome. An Anathema recently lifted…

The meaning of the Filioque is along the lines of “Who origniates in the Father, and flows forth from the Father and the Son” which is orthodox… but it is not the Nicene nor the Nicene-Constantinoplian creed.

It’s a big deal, because many of the Eastern Churches in Union were compelled to use it; given their norms for the vernacular of their native land, this often was problematic: either speak unmeant heresy, or engage in disobedience. But, since Vatican II, many have dropped the filioque.
 
As the above poster states, the Filioque clause does not proclaim a dual procession of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it simply states that the Holy Spirit originates from the Father but comes to us through the Son. There is nothing heretical about this belief. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, not from both the Father and Son.

I have been told that the Filioque clause was added in order to combat an Arian heresy, although I don’t have any documentary evidence to prove this; it’s just something that I heard.
 
Praised be Jesus Christ!

Is the whole “Filioque clause” of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed a real doctrinal chasm, or is it more of a superficial thing?

XC
Pat
The Filioque was never a part of the original Creed of the Council of Constantinople (Nicea’s Council didn’t even discuss the Holy Spirit in it’s Creed). It was an invention of some Roman Catholics in Toledo, Spain which the Pope of Rome of the time condemned! Going so far as to write the correct complete Creed of the two Church Councils in both Greek and Latin and hung it somewhere at St. Peter’s in Rome. It think was was written on either Gold or Silver Plates, but I can’t remember right now. There was at least this the one Pope of Rome, if not 2 who condemned it from the “Chair of St. Peter” before a Pope who for the priviledge of crowning, was it Charlemaine, King agreed to official change the Creed to add the Filioque Clause. Shortly there after Roman Missionaries to the Slavs caused much grief to Sts Cyril and Methodias since they did not use the altered Creed. The Roman Missionaries were condemning them as heretics for “altering” the Creed! If you can imagine that! Now those two are recognized as Sts by the Roman Catholic Church although they always have been Saints in the Eastern Church’s eyes.

This leads to another question though: If the Pope of Rome is Infallible in matters of Faith and Morals; then how is that that at least multiple Popes of Rome in the past taught one Faith and then at a specific point in time which can be traced the Popes of Rome are now teaching another Faith?

When I’ve asked Roman Catholics this question, I’ve gotten some bizzare answers: “Well, since the Infallibility of the Pope had not yet been defined, they were not yet Infallible.” or “Well the Creed has nothing to do with the Faith.” Like I said crazy answers.

Yes, The Filioque or no Filioque is a matter of Faith as it is describing two different Gods.

The Early Church (Rome and Eastern Churches) agreed that God is Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That God is One God because the Father is the Source, the Fountain Head, of the Eternal Trinity. From the Father the Son is eternally begotten and from the Father the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds. For those who are visual learners: a Triangle with one corner on top and 2 corners on bottom.

The new Faith describes a God who is Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit who is a One God, but with a dual Source. The Holy Spirit eternally proceeding from both the Father and the Son. For those who are visual learners: a Triangle with 2 corners on top and one of the bottom.

Visually you can see they are complete opposites of one another.

The Latter description of God contradicts Sacred Scripture not to mention Councils and Ancient Tradition of the Church.
 
Actually, it was first added by the Orthodox Churches in Persia, not in the west. However, the controversy as we have it was between the West and East.

From my Catholic view, it is a misunderstanding that can easily be fixed.
I am not sure if you are replying to me. Either way I didn’t say anything about first, just that it was added. 😛

It is my understanding that the use of it in the West began in Gaul as an attempt to fight a recurrence of the Arian heresy there. It was taken from Augustine’s writings in De Trinitate I believe.

However, they failed to take into account Augustine’s own critique of it in his Retractiones, a work I sadly do not have access to. If I remember correctly, he pretty much rejects the formulation.

That is one great thing about Augustine, he provided us with a later reflection and commentary on almost, if not, all of his works so that we know how his mind did in fact change on many topics. FYI: The Retractiones are a work by work, book by book analysis of his works done by him later in life.

God Bless,
R.
 
As the above poster states, the Filioque clause does not proclaim a dual procession of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it simply states that the Holy Spirit originates from the Father but comes to us through the Son. There is nothing heretical about this belief. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, not from both the Father and Son.

I
Although that may be true of the Clause by itslef, what is always ingored by Catholic e-pologists, and this is very tiresome, is that the domgatic pronouncements of Lyons and Florence, whihc Catholics consider to be ecumenical councils, further define that the Spirit proceeds “equally” and “eternally” from the Father and the Son “as from one principle”. These definitions quite clearly proclaim a double procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son, and preclude any interpretation that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (“equally” “as from one principle”). It isn’t so much the Clause itslef, but these definitions that are the problem. Joe
 
Christy74: I’m not sure where you’re getting this account of the filioque, but it’s highly inaccurate.

First of all, the filioque was taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Leo the Great and many others before the “Constinopolitan” portion of the Creed was even officially added to the Nicaean Creed (it was recognized at Chalcedon, not before, as the Council of Constantinople was not declared an Ecumenical Council until that time, when the “updated” Creed was finally accepted by the whole Church; remember that the Council of Ephesus, led by St. Cyril, mentioned only Nicaea as a previous Ecumenical Council).

Secondly, there is no record of any opposition to the filioque at the time of the Council of Toledo, which occurred a century or so after Chalcedon. No Popes condemned it at the time, and in fact we know that Rome was using the filioque (though perhaps not in the Nicene Creed) during the lifetime of St. Maximos the Confessor (who defended the Roman teaching against those who objected to it in the East), one hundred years before Charlemagne was even born.

Third, the Pope who crowned Charlemagne, Pope Leo III, was the same Pope who had the Nicene Creed, minus filioque, carved into the Silver Plates. Also, he did this in 809, after crowning Charlemagne. He was opposing the Franks for adding the filioque to the Creed (Charlemagne was still king at the time), but there’s no evidence that he opposed the teaching of the filioque, which was utterly embedded in the West since at least the time of St. Ambrose, if not earlier.

There is some speculation that it was added in 1014 at the insistence of King Henry II of the “Holy Roman Empire”, but I’ve never seen any documentation of this. Interestingly, this occurred over a century after Photius condemned Rome for its support of the filioque teaching, which would seem to indicate that the belief was upheld long before it was officially added in.

Fourth, it wasn’t Roman missionaries who bumped heads with St. Cyril and Methodius, it was missionaries from Germany, where there was dispute over who’s “jurisdiction” they were operating in. Whether or not the filioque was an issue between the two groups I honestly don’t know, but I do know that in order to resolve the issue the brothers went to Rome (during the “Photian Schism”, no less), where they received the blessing of the Pope to continue their work, where St. Cyril passed on and buried in the Basilica of Saint Clement (and where St. Methodius was ordained a Bishop by the Pope, to boot).

Finally, no Pope has ever condemned the teaching of the filioque, so there’s not issue over infallibility (if you know otherwise, I’m interested in seeing it, since that would be a major issue indeed). One Pope condemned its insertion into the Nicene Creed, but not the teaching itself, nor its use in other professions of Faith such as the “Athanasian Creed”. This is no different from the various condemnations of the use of vernacular for the Latin Mass, which was overturned on a wide level in the past century.

Allyson: I’ve never heard that St. Augustine refuted the filioque in his Retractations, and I would think that would be a significant thing to be brought up in discussions on the filioque.

I would certainly think that the infamous T.R. Valentine would say as much in his “refutation” of the filioque, but instead he [says this](http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/work(name removed by moderator)rog_filioque.html):
In his Retractions, Augustine admits to working On the Trinity for seventeen years and informs us that it would not have been released except for pressure from his friends. Nevertheless, the Retractions contains no substantive amendments to the work. Perhaps, given more time and/or less pressure, Augustine might have avoided the many errors which plague On the Trinity.
 
Although that may be true of the Clause by itslef, what is always ingored by Catholic e-pologists, and this is very tiresome, is that the domgatic pronouncements of Lyons and Florence, whihc Catholics consider to be ecumenical councils, further define that the Spirit proceeds “equally” and “eternally” from the Father and the Son “as from one principle”. These definitions quite clearly proclaim a double procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son, and preclude any interpretation that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (“equally” “as from one principle”). It isn’t so much the Clause itslef, but these definitions that are the problem. Joe
ahem, I’m not an “e-pologist” but any claim that Lyons and Florence preclude any teaching that the procession of the Holy Ghost procedes from the Father through the Son is false. Infact, the orthodox teaching of Florence teaches thusly:

“In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. We declare that when holy doctors and fathers say that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this bears the sense that thereby also the Son should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause, and according to the Latins as principle of the subsistence of the holy Spirit, just like the Father.”

The Ball is in your court.
 
Although that may be true of the Clause by itslef, what is always ingored by Catholic e-pologists, and this is very tiresome, is that the domgatic pronouncements of Lyons and Florence, whihc Catholics consider to be ecumenical councils, further define that the Spirit proceeds “equally” and “eternally” from the Father and the Son “as from one principle”. These definitions quite clearly proclaim a double procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son, and preclude any interpretation that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (“equally” “as from one principle”). It isn’t so much the Clause itslef, but these definitions that are the problem. Joe
This simply isn’t the case, as can be seen by the many Latin theologians, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, who affirm that the Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son “eternally as from one principle”, and also that the Holy Ghost comes “through the Son”. See this link, articles three and four.

Only a lack of understanding of Latin theological terminology could lead one to believe that “one principle” contradicts “through”; in fact, it is by the very fact that it is “one principle” that Latin theology can even say through; if it were anything other that “one eternal principle”, the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be “through” the Son from the Father, because the Son would be a distinct principle.

Also, the Council of Florence explitely states that the Father alone is the Source of the Son and Holy Spirit, further highlighting that the Latins had no intention of opposing the “through” aspect of the Creed.

Peace and God bless!
 
ahem, I’m not an “e-pologist” but any claim that Lyons and Florence preclude any teaching that the procession of the Holy Ghost procedes from the Father through the Son is false. Infact, the orthodox teaching of Florence teaches thusly:

“In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. We declare that when holy doctors and fathers say that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this bears the sense that thereby also the Son should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause, and according to the Latins as principle of the subsistence of the holy Spirit, just like the Father.”

The Ball is in your court.
The Fourth Lateran Council declared that the Holy Spirit proceeds equally from the Father and from the Son.
“We firmly believe and openly confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immense, omnipotent, unchangeable, incomprehensible, and ineffable, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; three Persons indeed but one essense, substance, or nature absolutely simple; the Father (proceeding) from no one, but the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Ghost equally from both, always without beginning and end.”
 
The Fourth Lateran Council declared that the Holy Spirit proceeds equally from the Father and from the Son.
“We firmly believe and openly confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immense, omnipotent, unchangeable, incomprehensible, and ineffable, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; three Persons indeed but one essense, substance, or nature absolutely simple; the Father (proceeding) from no one, but the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Ghost equally from both, always without beginning and end.”
Yes, both councils teach double procession. That much is clear. Neither council affirms that both are equally the principle or origin of the Holy Spirit. Try again.
 
Yes, both councils teach double procession. That much is clear. Neither council affirms that both are equally the principle or origin of the Holy Spirit. Try again.
Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, “Enchiridion” (1908), n. 460]: “We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration.”
 
Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, “Enchiridion” (1908), n. 460]: “We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration.”
Right, which means the Father through the Son as the Ecumenical Council of Florence teaches.
 
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