Filling common cups-does order of mass matter, as to when they are filled, and by whom?

[cknick]

tHANK YOU BRENDAN. I received the chronological history od communique and subsequent decisions and have printed it-I’ll forward.

 

[Brendan]

where can i find this reply? I looked and i cannot find the above vatican reply. I’m looking for any clarification, after the date of 09/04/04 which you provided on the link.

Yep, my bad, Cardinal Arinze replied in August of 2004, not 2005. So the issue should be more than settled by now.

Then again, there are places where they still haven’t seen R.S. I was on a business trip to Seattle recently and went to Mass at St. James Cathedral. Not only did they consecrate the wine in a flagon, but they had EMHC’s walking around filling up chalices during Communion.

 

[pnewton]

This thread encourages me. I see someone has brought an issue of abuse that needed correction and almost all here can jump in with the right answer. It is reassuring to see that most places are doing things properly. Since 2004, I have never seen any fractioning or pouring after the consecration.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

This happens in my parish, and I know that my pastor knows the “rules”, because when then-Archbishop Burke came to celebrate Mass for our parish 125th anniversary, it was done correctly. That was the only time since R.S. that I’ve seen it done correctly. My parish is hosting a welcoming Mass for our new Archbishop, Robert Carlson, next Monday, and I’m anxious to see how it’s done then, as I’ve recently learned (from another parishioner) that the reason our pastor continues to consecrate the wine prior to pouring (and we use a big glass pitcher, not anything even the least bit reverent or sacred looking) is simply b/c he prefers it that way (and has therefore forbidden our associate and senior associate pastor from doing it correctly, as well).

this worth going to the Bishop about? I mean, it drives me nuts, but that, and the (of course) hand holding during the Our Father are our only Liturgical abuses, and our parish is pretty orthodox, otherwise. But it does drive me nuts (and I’m not scrupulous), and I know it goes against the rubrics. What do you all think?

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[japhy]

this worth going to the Bishop about? I mean, it drives me nuts, but that, and the (of course) hand holding during the Our Father are our only Liturgical abuses, and our parish is pretty orthodox, otherwise. But it does drive me nuts (and I’m not scrupulous), and I know it goes against the rubrics. What do you all think?

Well, it is the Precious Blood of Christ. And the pastor isn’t ignorant, he’s willfully disobedient. I’d contact the Bishop.

 

[centurionguard]

This thread encourages me. I see someone has brought an issue of abuse that needed correction and almost all here can jump in with the right answer. It is reassuring to see that most places are doing things properly. Since 2004, I have never seen any fractioning or pouring after the consecration.

Since 2004, I have never seen any fractioning or pouring after the consecration.

I certainly wish I could laud the same claims in my own diocese. It’s sad and irritating to see this abusive liturgical practice. Prior to the late 1970’s their was no such thing as the common cup. The Eucharistic Sacrificial essence of the Holy Mass symbolizes ineffable sanctifying grace beyond human description. I have witnessed many embarrassing accidents when the common cup is poured out and fractioned in numerous common chalices with the sacred blood of Christ being spilled on the Alter and Sanctuary floor by careless inattentive ministers of the Eucharist. Yes; the Eucharistic nature of the Mass has an unquestionable and beautiful Holy Sacrificial significance. But does the pouring out of Christ’s Blood into the Common Chalice on the Alter have to take on the visible appearance and display of a Slaughter ? Parishioners in my diocese have brought this to the attention of the Archbishop with little to no avail of getting results.

 

[Phemie]

This thread encourages me. I see someone has brought an issue of abuse that needed correction and almost all here can jump in with the right answer. It is reassuring to see that most places are doing things properly. Since 2004, I have never seen any fractioning or pouring after the consecration.

I certainly hope you’ve seen fractioning after consecration because the fractioning is not supposed to happen until shortly before Communion and is accompanied by the singing of the Agnus Dei.

 

[pnewton]

I certainly hope you’ve seen fractioning after consecration because the fractioning is not supposed to happen until shortly before Communion and is accompanied by the singing of the Agnus Dei.

Maybe I am confused in terms. Am I to assume that fractioning is not the dividing of the Blood into cups? That always occurs before.

If we are talking about the Host, then yes it is always the big round thing held up whole for the consecration.

 

[Phemie]

Maybe I am confused in terms. Am I to assume that fractioning is not the dividing of the Blood into cups? That always occurs before.

If we are talking about the Host, then yes it is always the big round thing held up whole for the consecration.

The Fractioning or Fraction Rite is when the priest breaks the large host into several pieces after the Sign of Peace.

GIRMThe Fraction

1. The priest breaks the Eucharistic Bread, assisted, if the case calls for it, by the deacon or a concelebrant. Christ’s gesture of breaking bread at the Last Supper, which gave the entire Eucharistic Action its name in apostolic times, signifies that the many faithful are made one body (1 Cor 10:17) by receiving Communion from the one Bread of Life which is Christ, who died and rose for the salvation of the world. The fraction or breaking of bread is begun after the sign of peace and is carried out with proper reverence, though it should not be unnecessarily prolonged, nor should it be accorded undue importance. This rite is reserved to the priest and the deacon.

The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

It’s true that the pouring of the Precious Blood into the chalices was done at the same time in parishes where the wine was consecrated in the flagon/carafe.

 

[cknick]

Just an update, but as of today, I haven’t received a response from the Pastor regarding my concerns. (he received it on Monday) I heard him say something the day after in a homily about being in “perfect obedience” to the Bishop, but didn’t catch that he was talking about this issue. This response of being met with “silence” for many of the parishioners is really getting old. Then if you go over his head and go to the Bishop…watch out.

 

[centurionguard]

The Fractioning or Fraction Rite is when the priest breaks the large host into several pieces after the Sign of Peace.
It’s true that the pouring of the Precious Blood into the chalices was done at the same time in parishes where the wine was consecrated in the flagon/carafe.

The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

Actually; the sign of unity of humanity joining with Christ’s Body and Blood begins during the Offertory when a drop of water from the cruet is poured into the chalice filled with wine.
Water representing Humanity. Wine representing (BOTH) the Blood and Body of Christ.

Our Union With Christ…excerpt taken from Latin Mass.
(" O God Who established the nature of mankind in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, Who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son our Lord: Who with You lives and reigns in the unity of the Holy Spirit: God world without end. Amen")