FILM: The Hobbit (some spoilers)

[louisak]

Well, yes, the seemingly “out of character” part is what made her character somewhat-realistic. For independent, intelligent, strong-souled young women, it can feel internally out of character to find themselves romantically drawn towards someone they admire.

It’s been a while since I read the book, but my memory of Eowyn is that she was not just an independent, strong-willed woman. She was rather embittered, I actually can’t remember the specific reason; but there was some kind of despair which had seeped deep into her soul, although without destroying her personal integrity. Hence the quality of “coldness” which I mentioned, which I believe is used to describe her in the book.

Her attraction to Aragorn is not really a love for him as a person, rather she is attracted by his high lineage and general noble bearing, and also I think that unconsciously she is playing a role - the tragic lover, falling hopelessly in love with a man who is unattainable (since already pledged to another). It is a manifestation of the sickess of her soul. Only when she is healed (both physically and emotionally) in the Houses of Healing is she able to recognize this fact, and form a true love for Faramir - a love grounded in the personalities of the two individuals involved, not in the external circumstances of their station in life.

When filming the soup scene, the filmmakers seemed to have lost sight of all this, which is why I found it disappointing.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It’s been a while since I read the book, but my memory of Eowyn is that she was not just an independent, strong-willed woman. She was rather embittered, I actually can’t remember the specific reason; but there was some kind of despair which had seeped deep into her soul, although without destroying her personal integrity. Hence the quality of “coldness” which I mentioned, which I believe is used to describe her in the book.

Her attraction to Aragorn is not really a love for him as a person, rather she is attracted by his high lineage and general noble bearing, and also I think that unconsciously she is playing a role - the tragic lover, falling hopelessly in love with a man who is unattainable (since already pledged to another). It is a manifestation of the sickess of her soul. Only when she is healed (both physically and emotionally) in the Houses of Healing is she able to recognize this fact, and form a true love for Faramir - a love grounded in the personalities of the two individuals involved, not in the external circumstances of their station in life.

When filming the soup scene, the filmmakers seemed to have lost sight of all this, which is why I found it disappointing.

Hmm, I haven’t read the books in quite awhile, either. I don’t remember her being that complex in the book, but it’s entirely possible that I’m remembering her wrongly. I’m pretty sure I do remember reading in a biography of Tolkien that he said he wrote about Eowyn to give his daughter an interesting female character to relate to. It seems unlikely to me that he would have meant Eowyn to be somehow sick in her soul in that case. Of course, I read that in a biography quite awhile ago, too, so maybe I’m remembering that incorrectly, as well.

 

[Razanir]

Yeah, the stone giants were awesome.

I also really liked the scene at Bag End of the dwarf song—very atmospheric.

Both dwarf songs were good. The first one for conveying the tone of the source material, the second for being just plain awesome (and almost straight from the book)

 

[AbideWithMe]

Both dwarf songs were good. The first one for conveying the tone of the source material, the second for being just plain awesome (and almost straight from the book)

I haven’t read it in about a year or two. As I remember, Éowyn was similar to Mulan. Both disliked their chauvinistic societies. They even both joined the army. (aside) And how hadn’t I noticed this yet?

Also, minirant– Lord of the Rings is all one novel, divided into six parts/books, and often published in three parts. Only the movies are an actual trilogy

Yes, Mulan partly reminded me of Eowyn, too.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I did find references to Tolkien’s daughter asking him to include an interesting female character, and so Eowyn became part of the story. Other than Eowyn, for girls and women reading the books, we don’t have any characters we can much relate to as women…Galadriel and Arwen seem far above us mere humans.

I think Eowyn’s misery was greatly exacerbated by Grima Wormtongue’s increase in power, his evil influence, and his lust for her, and so I don’t think she was just deceiving herself into playing a tragic role in falling for Aragorn. He may have seemed like a knight in shining armor compared to the men she was most often around—Grima and the failing Theoden. (Also, IIRC, she didn’t initially realize he was betrothed to Arwen.) She didn’t seem embittered to me, but rather understandably miserable.

Gandalf speaking to Grima: “How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps…”

 

[curlycool89]

You seem to be implying (correct me if I’m wrong) that a more flawed character is necessarily more “three-dimensional” or believable than a more virtuous character. I do think that creating a truly noble character is more difficult than creating a villain, that’s why in so many stories the villain is more interesting than the hero. But I believe that Tolkien was a better author than that, although I’m not saying he was perfect in that area.

Tolkien was good, but not perfect.

Personally, I believe that flawed characters are more interesting then “pure” characters. “Purest of pure” characters always come across as cardboard cutouts that don’t respond to the world but only follow their “prime directive” like robots. Flawed characters are more human and are more identifiable by people reading the books (one reason why I really liked Aragorn’s character arc in Jackson’s LOTH). There is a reason why in modern times, characters like this largely exist to deconstruct the archetype.

Your comments about Faramir, for example, make me suspect that you have not read the book.

I assure you that I have read the books several times. Your attempt to defelect my criticism with a condescending remark is a sign of a very poor argument.

The character in the book was also troubled by his father’s seeming rejection; but he would not throw his principles out the window in order to try to please his father and win his approval.

So Faramir is a cold, heartless person who does not care about others but only cares what he thinks is right?

That doesn’t seem like a very virtuous character. Honouring your father is an important virtue, especially when your father is the Steward. The movie also makes for a much more consistent tale, because it seems very inconsistent that there just happens to be 1 of the race of Men who’s virtually unaffected by the Ring when everyone else is. That was a poor choice Tolkien made in terms of universe coherence.

I don’t understand your point with this question.

It’s called a rhetorical question…

I recognize the need for adaptation and abridgment - it’s the specific nature of the changes that I am objecting to.

And yet all your objections still take the form of “It wasn’t exactly like it was in the book”.

Maybe I am attaching too much importance to the scene with the soup. That’s the one scene I remember in which her behavior seems out of character. As I mentioned, I don’t even recall if that is part of the original film, or the extended version. It has been almost ten years, so I have forgotten some things.

Extended version.

You might remember that Eowyn had just lost her brother at this point. Her uncle, although well again, is still distraught with the situation he’s in and seems distant from her or keeps pushing her off. All people seek some sort of socialization or companionship, and Aragorn was the one that held Eowyn back in the hall when Gandalf was lifting the spell on Theoden.

 

[louisak]

This morning I looked at the book again. The ideas I had about Eowyn were based on things that Aragorn says to her brother Eomer in the Houses of Healing, just before Aragorn attempts to heal her of the Black Breath.

He identifies Eowyn’s great sadness as being due to the slow decay of the royal household, as the king’s mind is corrupted by the influence of Wormtongue (AbideWithMe already pointed this out). Plus the fact that as a woman, she was forced to stand around and watch, unable to find outlet for her grief in deeds of arms, as her brother could. Eomer is at first surprised by what Aragorn says, but Gandalf agrees with Aragorn.

Aragorn then speaks about Eowyn’s feelings for him. He says: “And yet, Eomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me, for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.” Since Aragorn is presented as a figure of great wisdom, I think we are meant to accept his analysis of the situation.

One might object that Eowyn’s later development of feelings for Faramir are no more real than her feelings for Aragorn. But she and Faramir spend many hours together, day after day, in the Houses of Healing and are able to truly get to know each other. In contrast, Eowyn spends little time in Aragorn’s company and as far as I recall, they only have one brief conversation together.

 

[Dale_M]

A couple questions:

I haven’t seen any of the Peter Jackson LOTR movies. Should I wait and see *The Hobbit *first?

I heard that the director of The Hobbit created a female warrior elf who never appeared in the book. And that she seduces one of the youngest of the dwarves.

Is there any truth to that pre-release rumor?

 

[louisak]

“Purest of pure” characters always come across as cardboard cutouts that don’t respond to the world but only follow their “prime directive” like robots.

“Always” is a very strong word - it doesn’t allow of any exceptions. Personally, I believe there are some authors who have risen to the challenge of creating a pure, noble character who is truly believable and human. Not many, perhaps, but some. I consider Tolkien to be one of them.

I assure you that I have read the books several times. Your attempt to deflect my criticism with a condescending remark is a sign of a very poor argument.

I only said it “makes me suspect”. I didn’t mean to sound condescending. I’m sorry if it came across that way.

It seems that the basic principles you bring to literary interpretation are so different from mine that we can never have meaningful conversation. That’s ok; as I have said earlier, people’s tastes differ. Anyway, you appear to be someone who has not only read the book several times but thought deeply about the moral significance of the story and the characters. Being a great lover of Tolkien myself, I respect that. For the details, let us agree to disagree.

 

[louisak]

A couple questions:

I haven’t seen any of the Peter Jackson LOTR movies. Should I wait and see *The Hobbit *first?

Since The Hobbit is already in theaters, why would you need to wait? Going to wait for the DVD?

 

[Razanir]

A couple questions:

I haven’t seen any of the Peter Jackson LOTR movies. Should I wait and see *The Hobbit *first?

I heard that the director of The Hobbit created a female warrior elf who never appeared in the book. And that she seduces one of the youngest of the dwarves.

Is there any truth to that pre-release rumor?

Nah. You can see LotR movies first. In fact, the first one might make slightly more sense that way. Oh, and the rumor is true, but exaggerated. If it’s talking about who I think it is, she only appears in the one scene where some elves ride to meet the dwarves when they showed up in Rivendell

 

[louisak]

A couple questions:

I haven’t seen any of the Peter Jackson LOTR movies. Should I wait and see *The Hobbit *first?

It’s going to be two more years until all the Hobbit movies have been released (there are two more coming). I don’t think it is worth waiting that long. There aren’t really that many points of overlap between the two stories (in terms of plot), and you can understand either one without having read the other (I am thinking of the books obviously, but I think the same thing will be true of the movies).

 

[louisak]

Also, minirant– Lord of the Rings is all one novel, divided into six parts/books, and often published in three parts. Only the movies are an actual trilogy

The movies are not really a trilogy either, in the strict sense of the word, more like a miniseries in three parts.

A trilogy is a set of three books (or movies) in which each has a stand-alone plot, but they are connected to each other in one of two ways: by having a common set of characters, or by sharing a common theme. An example of a literary trilogy would be the space trilogy of C.S. Lewis - Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength. An example of a film trilogy would be the “colors” trilogy - Blue, White, and *Red *by Krzysztof Kieslowski.

 

[louisak]

I did find references to Tolkien’s daughter asking him to include an interesting female character, and so Eowyn became part of the story. Other than Eowyn, for girls and women reading the books, we don’t have any characters we can much relate to as women…Galadriel and Arwen seem far above us mere humans.

Many critics have noted that Tolkien had a strong tendency to idealize his female characters. Notice that he never introduces a female villain (unless you count the giant spider Shelob - since she is not of one of the humanoid races, I would say she doesn’t count). You can’t imagine him having a character such as the White Witch from the Narnia books.

Some people speculate this is because of his feelings for his mother, who converted to Catholicism and as a result was ostracized by all the members of her family. She died when Tolkien was still growing up, at least in part because of the poverty she suffered as a result of this ostracism, which left her few resources to cope with her disease (diabetes). Tolkien revered her all his life and regarded her almost as a martyr. Some critics think he projected these feelings onto his female characters.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Many critics have noted that Tolkien had a strong tendency to idealize his female characters. Notice that he never introduces a female villain (unless you count the giant spider Shelob - since she is not of one of the humanoid races, I would say she doesn’t count). You can’t imagine him having a character such as the White Witch from the Narnia books.

Some people speculate this is because of his feelings for his mother, who converted to Catholicism and as a result was ostracized by all the members of her family. She died when Tolkien was still growing up, at least in part because of the poverty she suffered as a result of this ostracism, which left her few resources to cope with her disease (diabetes). Tolkien revered her all his life and regarded her almost as a martyr. Some critics think he projected these feelings onto his female characters.

Yes, I’d agree with this.

From my perspective as initially a teenager then a young woman reading and re-reading his books back in the 80’s and 90’s, this tendency of Tolkien’s left me identifying with the male characters, though! My female friends did the same. We wanted adventure! Apart from Eowyn, the women we know by name–Galadriel, Arwen, and Sam’s Rosie come to mind—weren’t nearly as well developed, IMO.

I like in the LOTR movie that Arwen had a hand in saving Frodo when he was nearly dead from the Wraith’s sword; riding her magnificent Andalusian horse and carrying Frodo to the fords at a gallop. ( The great majority of movie horsemanship makes me cringe, but that was well done.)

 

[AbideWithMe]

C.S. Lewis, on the other hand, made great female characters.

 

[louisak]

From my perspective as initially a teenager then a young woman reading and re-reading his books back in the 80’s and 90’s, this tendency of Tolkien’s left me identifying with the male characters, though! My female friends did the same.

I don’t understand the assumption, which some people seem to make (not you obviously), that one can’t identify with a literary character of the opposite sex. As a teen I loved A Wrinkle In Time and its sequels, and I loved the main character, Meg Murray. The fact that she was a girl never bothered me.

Perhaps more to the point, I enjoyed Jane Eyre very much, and that is a story in which the sex of the protagonist (I refuse to say “gender”, that is a grammatical term) is really integral to the story. It never occurred to me that I shouldn’t be able to relate to the character because she was a woman.

 

[Angela_Tate]

[sign]Reminder: This thread is about the film “The Hobbit”[/sign]

Discussions about Lord of the Rings require a new thread.

 

[Sarcelle]

I agree with many of Louis’ critiques. But the movies’ handling of the mercy shown Gollum has been, for me, enough of a redeeming good that I see the movies as worthwhile.

I got to see “The Hobbit” today. I really liked it. I enjoy the movies without expecting them to measure up to the books, and so I’m not disappointed by them.

What I do love about them movies is the great care taken with the sets, clothing and other props. To me as an artist, they’re a visual feast in rich detail. I especially loved the colossal statues guarding the river near Gondor in LOTR, and “The Hobbit” likewise has a pair of colossal archers guarding the entrance to Erebor. I appreciate fellow artists’ imaginations and creativity, even if it’s not what I pictured myself in reading the books.

I personally would like to see Mirkwood and Thranduil’s palace.

 

[jdurant]

I just saw it yesterday! It was as good as I expected it to be! There were a couple battle scenes that were hard for me to follow, because everything was moving so fast, but that wasn’t really any different than in LOTR. The only thing that disappointed me was that the orcs/wargs were animated, and they just don’t look as real as they did in LOTR. But I’m a big Tolkien fan, so on the whole it was great!