Final Authority: Bible or Church?

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Charlemagne_III

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What is the ultimate authority for our faith?

Is it the Bible, as the Protestants say?

Or the Church, as Catholics say?

Justify your answer?

Thanks.
 
Jesus instituted a Church; he neither wrote nor commissioned any writings. The Church gave us the Bible; the Bible did not give us the Church. Only one of those two things has a divine institution and commission directly from the Almighty; the other is a product of that institution.
 
“But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.” (Saint Augustine, Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus, 5, 6,)

“Pass not beyond the ancient bounds which thy fathers have set.” (Prov 22:28)

“The Apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was sent from God. Christ, therefore, is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both of these orderly arrangements, then, are by God’s will.… Through countryside and city they preached; and they appointed their earliest converts [literally first-fruits], testing them by the spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers.” (1 Clement to Corinthians, 42) And later the bible was written and existed in isolated areas for many years. While God commanded obedience from all areas including the very small numbers who had the scriptures.

I should not transgress the order set by Christ. Transgression of the His order by disobedience is an injustice. Therefore, I transgress God if I disobey. For obedience to His order is enumerated under the cardinal virtue of justice. And this is the order in question. the bible came from the Church, the Church did not come from the bible. The Church functioned by preaching and believing - the bible was written for the order of this function.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
What is the ultimate authority for our faith?

Is it the Bible, as the Protestants say?

Or the Church, as Catholics say?

Justify your answer?

Thanks.
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God.

And if you have to justify God (Divine Revelation trumps) that is your problem.
 
The Catholic Church

Matthew 18:18…

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
Neither will contradict. The interpretation of any bible, however, will be based on church’s teaching, but will not contradict it.

That being said, this is the same thing as protestant, where there will be intepretation and that is considered “final”.
 
Jestersage said:
Neither will contradict. The interpretation of any bible, however, will be based on church’s teaching, but will not contradict it.

That being said, this is the same thing as protestant, where there will be intepretation and that is considered “final”.
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I thought Jesus was pretty clear in what we had to do when we had disagreements.
 
meltzerboy said:
I thought it was a well-formed conscience. For me it is, though I am not Christian.
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How do you get a well-formed conscience without the Church well-forming it?

What Paul said in 1 Timothy 3:15: “The pillar and bulwark of truth is the Church.”
 
Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of of the Word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 8:42) so that holding holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort.—Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation

The task of authentically interpreting the Word of God, whether written or handed on has been entrusted exclusively to the teaching office of the Church, the magisterium. This office is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ who is the Head of the Body, the Church.

The magisterium is not above the Word of God, but serves it. The Gospel of John begins with the words, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” The final words of every Mass are “Go forth to love and serve the Lord.” The Church serves God. The Word became incarnate. That which He taught has been entrusted to Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”
 
The Church.

The Church wrote and canonized the Bible, so if the Church does not have the final authority, then the Bible has NONE.
 
meltzerboy said:
Being guided by the grace of the Holy Spirit? Or is this only Protestant teaching?
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Does the Holy Spirit guide Protestants to create thousands of opposing sects?

The fundamental error of Protestantism is that it leaves its followers without a final authority for interpreting the Bible. Different readers find different truths, so who is to adjudicate the real truth from the opposing views? Thus, from the very start with Luther’s rejection of absolute, unwavering and united authority lodged in the Church, Protestantism was doomed to fragment into thousands of sects, the very thing that Jesus and Paul preached against (John 10:16 and Ephesians 4:26). As Ronald Knox pointed out in Soft Garments, Protestants might well rejoin that conscience is the final guide and no other is needed. But this is not satisfactory, Knox answers. Different readers have different consciences and will read what they like into Scripture. As the Apostle Peter warned, they will do so “to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).
 
meltzerboy said:
Being guided by the grace of the Holy Spirit? Or is this only Protestant teaching?
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The magisterium of the Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit who guides what is handed on, Sacred Tradition.
Each member of the Body of Christ is a temple of the Holy Spirit by virtue of the Sacraments. Christ remains the Head of the Body.

…remain faithful in what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.[2 Tim.3:14-17]
 
DebChris said:
The magisterium of the Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit who guides what is handed on, Sacred Tradition.
Each member of the Body of Christ is a temple of the Holy Spirit by virtue of the Sacraments. Christ remains the Head of the Body.

…remain faithful in what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.[2 Tim.3:14-17]
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Interesting, isn’t it?

The Gospels had not even been written when Paul said this. So clearly what we are to learn is from those who write the scriptures … namely the Church elders.
 
As I’m sure other have said Jesus founded a Church, not a book. It is the church which tells us the bible is the word of God. All other religious books like Koran, Book of Mormon, etc all claim to be inspired and holy, but scripture itself cannot prove itself to be holy.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Interesting, isn’t it?

The Gospels had not even been written when Paul said this. So clearly what we are to learn is from those who write the scriptures … namely the Church elders.
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Both St. Paul and Timothy came from the Jewish Pharisee class. They were highly versed in the Scriptures and Mosaic Law.
In writing to Timothy, St. Paul writes about proper deportment in the assembly. He is writing to Gentiles. Much is made about head covering for women, without looking at the culture of the time and the audience to whom he was speaking. He might have written something different to a different audience. That’s beside the point. Proper worship, placing God first is not. We see that over and over as we read the Old Testament.
As Catholics, we point to our Jewish roots. Our Lord used the Scriptures when teaching. Every Mass includes a reading from the Old Testament, or Hebrew Scriptures, as well as the Gospel. We pray the Psalms. Many of our prayers have Jewish origins.
St. Paul was well educated, and understood Greek logic when debating with them.

In his First Letter to Timothy, St. Paul doesn’t overlook the issue of conscience, citing those who made a “shipwreck of their faith by rejecting conscience.” It is also true, as St. Paul writes elsewhere that going against conscience is a sin. The law is good, if we understand the purpose of law “is not for the righteous but for the lawless and unruly, the godless, and profane, those who kill their fathers and mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever is opposed to sound teaching.” [1 Tim 8-14]. As Catholics, we receive God’s grace through the Sacraments of the Church that He establish. When we stray from the Truth, we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation to lead us back to the Truth.
When we respond in faith, to the faith that God has placed in our hearts, it becomes more than an intellectual exercise. We taste, feel, and experience God in our everyday lives.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that a person must be able to read in order to be saved. We are saved by Grace, by the Word incarnate, by Jesus Christ. The Bible contains the words that lead us to the Word of God.
The Gospel message is proclaimed within the Church which Christ established.
 
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