Final judgement and sending the punished to hell.No contradiction?

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Thanks for the responses all of which are informative and nearly clarify my doubts. So Satan has no upper hand in hell,and he also suffers just like the souls condemned to hell.

Regarding the last post above,yes I also feel that given a choice and in a normal circumstance, no body will reject God and if people do so it is mainly due to circumstances beyond their control.May be God the most merciful will surely consider their case sympathetically and eventually the hell itself may be dismantled…
 
Thanks for the responses all of which are informative and nearly clarify my doubts. So Satan has no upper hand in hell,and he also suffers just like the souls condemned to hell.

Regarding the last post above,yes I also feel that given a choice and in a normal circumstance, no body will reject God and if people do so it is mainly due to circumstances beyond their control.May be God the most merciful will surely consider their case sympathetically and eventually the hell itself may be dismantled…
AMEN
 
Thanks for the responses all of which are informative and nearly clarify my doubts. So Satan has no upper hand in hell,and he also suffers just like the souls condemned to hell.
Yes, and in his sufferings he tries to destroy others like he destroyed himself. This is the essence of hate. Jesus called him “the father of lies” because he deceives people, playing on their fallen natures to reject God and sin. A great little book about temptation is C. S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters.” Also, the saints have written much about temptation and what causes people to reject God. Since you are troubled by this, you may wish to research it further through reading these resources. 🙂
Regarding the last post above,yes I also feel that given a choice and in a normal circumstance, no body will reject God and if people do so it is mainly due to circumstances beyond their control.May be God the most merciful will surely consider their case sympathetically and eventually the hell itself may be dismantled…
This is why the Church has never formally declared who is in hell–not even Judas. We simply cannot know that, for, as you and laylow cited, we cannot know the circumstances of anyone’s life, their disposition, or their soul’s condition upon death. “God does not will that any should perish” Scripture tells us. God alone knows who is culpable of mortal sin and why they committed it, so we leave that in his most merciful hands.

As to emptying hell one day–that’s not possible. Hell does not exist within time. It exists within eternity, just like heaven does. When one chooses hell one chooses to be apart from God forever. This is why we must cultivate holy fear of God and never harden our hearts towards sin. We must love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and body. It’s not hard if we truly love him. It’s only hard if we refuse to be corrected by God by following the teachings of his Church.
 
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Satan rules hell or that he administers the torments of hell.

Satan will not be ruling in hell. He will be punished and suffering along with the souls and angels who willingly turned against God. Satan will not be punishing them. He will be in the same boat with them.
You are right, except that Satan will eventually be let loose from hell at a certain point (even if its for a short time), I may be mistaken, but from what I understand, NO human soul would ever get that chance, so that is strange imo why it says satan MUST be released again for a short time, if he is truly being punished, why release him for a short time?

That is one of the things that make me believe Satan is just doing what he was created for, he is a tool God uses in the bigger picture.
 
You mean hell ,the most hated place,is operated and maintained by God ? Other two possibilities are that it is a’ self service’ or it is under the control of Satan,the most hated thing.Out of these three ,is it not the last which is more appropriate ?
About the contention that satan himself is going to be punished in hell…any direct or indirect supporting material ?
Are you suggesting that there exists something which God does not create? God does send people to hell. He maintains their existence eternally, as is it is the nature of the soul to be eternal. People try to emphasize that people choose hell, and that’s true enough, but God still punishes the damned. It’s not just something He permits to happen. Hell is not outside God’s control or creation.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t finish the topic. Seems like you got the clarification you were looking for already.
 
You are right, except that Satan will eventually be let loose from hell at a certain point (even if its for a short time), I may be mistaken, but from what I understand, NO human soul would ever get that chance, so that is strange imo why it says satan MUST be released again for a short time, if he is truly being punished, why release him for a short time?

That is one of the things that make me believe Satan is just doing what he was created for, he is a tool God uses in the bigger picture.
How and when God allows Satan to be turned loose is not really our concern. God knows what he is doing and why, not us. Neither do we know the set time for that, nor do we really know exactly what it refers to, so it is, in fact, something we can do nothing about. What we can do is remain faithful to our baptismal promises by living in God’s grace through proper reception of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, daily prayer, and acts of charity.

Satan wasn’t created Satan. He was created Lucifer–which means light bearer. God wished him to be the greatest of the archangels, but he defied God and God’s will, wishing to be more than he was created to be. He fell, becoming Satan–the liar and deceiver. God allows him to be that, and to tempt man in order that man might freely choose to love and serve God. That’s our concern–to love and serve God as he has commanded us to do not try to guess when or why God allows Satan to be loosed upon the world. 🙂
 
I wonder how many people knowingly and willingly reject God? For instance, I’ll take an example of a person whom I bet most people think would be damned to hell.

Kid grows up in horrible family and has a horrible example set in front of him. Never been taught faith, doesn’t know God. Ends up in a gang, because this is all he sees. Eventually gets caught up and kills someone. Gets sent to solitary confinement, where he eventually is sorry for his actions, but very quickly loses his mind because of how inhumane and sick solitary is. Maybe even ends up hanging himself to escape, or maybe is lucky to put back into the normal prison population or executed.

This person has suffered his entire life. No way to know their real intentions, but it would be hard for me to think that this person ever really totally rejected God.

I know all examples don’t follow this course, but I think many do…
On the one hand, men are given the ability to recognize right and wrong apart from being authoritatively told what it is. He might not find the faith, but he still has a conscience. On the other, there can be some pretty twisted environments that it’s hard to think someone ever had the chance to think rationally.

I don’t know how to judge anyone. I don’t know if anyone deserves to be in hell. God ultimately knows what’s in a person’s heart and mind, and we trust in Him to judge accordingly, including an account of individual circumstances.
 
You are right, except that Satan will eventually be let loose from hell at a certain point (even if its for a short time), I may be mistaken, but from what I understand, NO human soul would ever get that chance, so that is strange imo why it says satan MUST be released again for a short time, if he is truly being punished, why release him for a short time?

That is one of the things that make me believe Satan is just doing what he was created for, he is a tool God uses in the bigger picture.
We tend to believe that the devil being let loose is in the here and now (we are not pre-trib dispensationalists).

There are many ways to interpret Revelation, and not just at face value. Such is the nature of apocalyptic literature.
 
Are you suggesting that there exists something which God does not create? God does send people to hell. He maintains their existence eternally, as is it is the nature of the soul to be eternal. People try to emphasize that people choose hell, and that’s true enough, but God still punishes the damned. It’s not just something He permits to happen. Hell is not outside God’s control or creation.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t finish the topic. Seems like you got the clarification you were looking for already.
I’ll admit, though I accept Church teaching on Hell, I am troubled by the idea that God deliberately enacts punishment on the damned, beyond allowing them to suffer the consequences of their choices. Purgatory I fully understand as a process initiated by God to make us ready for Heaven, but the punishment of Hell has no end or goal and does not seem to be justice in any form understandable to us. That is why I like the Eastern notion that Heaven and Hell (and the cleansing we in the West call Purgatory) are the same, inevitable experience of God’s unveiled presence, differing based of the willingness of each soul to receive it rather than on anything God is deliberately doing. Of Western views of Hell, I prefer the metaphor of the gates being “locked from the inside” – that God would save all the damned and even the demons if they would permit it, but their wills remain fixed against Him. The Jack Chick image of a soul realizing all its mistakes and wanting another chance, only to be met with a “Too late” from God and a quick trip into the flames, does not sit right with me … yet obviously Scripture and Tradition do not allow me to reject the existence of Hell or the real possibility of human damnation.
 
I’ll admit, though I accept Church teaching on Hell, I am troubled by the idea that God deliberately enacts punishment on the damned, beyond allowing them to suffer the consequences of their choices. Purgatory I fully understand as a process initiated by God to make us ready for Heaven, but the punishment of Hell has no end or goal and does not seem to be justice in any form understandable to us. That is why I like the Eastern notion that Heaven and Hell (and the cleansing we in the West call Purgatory) are the same, inevitable experience of God’s unveiled presence, differing based of the willingness of each soul to receive it rather than on anything God is deliberately doing. Of Western views of Hell, I prefer the metaphor of the gates being “locked from the inside” – that God would save all the damned and even the demons if they would permit it, but their wills remain fixed against Him. The Jack Chick image of a soul realizing all its mistakes and wanting another chance, only to be met with a “Too late” from God and a quick trip into the flames, does not sit right with me … yet obviously Scripture and Tradition do not allow me to reject the existence of Hell or the real possibility of human damnation.
To anyone who knows how to love, hell does seem like an extreme punishment. I have to believe that the damned do not long to be released from hell, but rather have freely chosen their destiny by hardening their hearts against God’s love. C. S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” goes into this very nicely. I highly recommend it–although Lewis makes clear he isn’t saying what actually happens to the dead, but merely using his scenario to help explain why people chose hell instead of the joys of God’s presence in heaven.
 
To anyone who knows how to love, hell does seem like an extreme punishment. I have to believe that the damned do not long to be released from hell, but rather have freely chosen their destiny by hardening their hearts against God’s love. C. S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” goes into this very nicely. I highly recommend it–although Lewis makes clear he isn’t saying what actually happens to the dead, but merely using his scenario to help explain why people chose hell instead of the joys of God’s presence in heaven.
Ed Feser (Catholic Thomist philosopher) explains it as being kind of similar to someone reveling in their own misery. Have you ever, when really emotionally down, act in a way known to keep you miserable? You almost want it, in some type of self-defeating cycle. There are some miserly people who live much of their lives this way, always causing drama and fights because they “like” the unpleasantness and pain it causes. In a way, dying attached to mortal sin is similar. The person continues to will the same evils due to attachment to them, even with the punishment.
 
I’ll admit, though I accept Church teaching on Hell, I am troubled by the idea that God deliberately enacts punishment on the damned, beyond allowing them to suffer the consequences of their choices. Purgatory I fully understand as a process initiated by God to make us ready for Heaven, but the punishment of Hell has no end or goal and does not seem to be justice in any form understandable to us. That is why I like the Eastern notion that Heaven and Hell (and the cleansing we in the West call Purgatory) are the same, inevitable experience of God’s unveiled presence, differing based of the willingness of each soul to receive it rather than on anything God is deliberately doing. Of Western views of Hell, I prefer the metaphor of the gates being “locked from the inside” – that God would save all the damned and even the demons if they would permit it, but their wills remain fixed against Him. The Jack Chick image of a soul realizing all its mistakes and wanting another chance, only to be met with a “Too late” from God and a quick trip into the flames, does not sit right with me … yet obviously Scripture and Tradition do not allow me to reject the existence of Hell or the real possibility of human damnation.
It is what the Church calls a consequence of the gift free will (well, technically, mortal sin is).

Hell is first and foremost, the eternal separation from God. No more, no less. In our fallen state, hell is our “default” destination.

Now the things about fire, worms, torment, etc. are all imagery to help drive home the reality of hell, but because hell is an eternal state, these cannot necessarily be taken as literal fire, worms, etc. But they are there to drive home the reality of the pain and torment of hell.

The pain of hell is real because man is not meant to live apart from God. Therefore, deprived of this final eternal destiny, the damned will endure a pain like nothing he has ever experienced, a never-ending despair in the knowledge that he will never, ever be fulfilled. This is called the pain of loss, and is a definitive teaching. It will be worse than any pain, physical or emotional you have ever experienced on earth. It is not something you should wish or pray for on your worst enemy.

Also included is the pain of sense. This is taught to be the “fire” of which we speak, but hell not being a physical place, this fire is not the same fire of the natural world. It is a necessary component of divine justice, as sin must be punished. Therefore, the degree of the pain of sense varies with the seriousness of the guilt on the soul.

Chick’s depiction is a joke, a caricature of what the Bible and the Church really teaches. But it cannot be denied. In his goodness, God made man immortal and with free will so that man can choose God and share in his divine life. He could not have it any other way, because sanctifying grace is love, and one cannot love without free will. This free will therefore allows man to choose the opposite, and as such, hell has to necessarily exist.

I would not state this as Church teaching or anything, but I could probably put it this way: Hell was created the moment God created free will.
 
I wonder how many people knowingly and willingly reject God? For instance, I’ll take an example of a person whom I bet most people think would be damned to hell.

Kid grows up in horrible family and has a horrible example set in front of him. Never been taught faith, doesn’t know God. Ends up in a gang, because this is all he sees. Eventually gets caught up and kills someone. Gets sent to solitary confinement, where he eventually is sorry for his actions, but very quickly loses his mind because of how inhumane and sick solitary is. Maybe even ends up hanging himself to escape, or maybe is lucky to put back into the normal prison population or executed.

This person has suffered his entire life. No way to know their real intentions, but it would be hard for me to think that this person ever really totally rejected God.

I know all examples don’t follow this course, but I think many do…
Hi!

…the problem with such arguments is that they remove God from the equation… it is as though everything that the Holy Spirit can do is brushed out of existence:
10 These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depths of everything, even the depths of God.
(1 Corinthians 2:10)

26 The Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness. For when we cannot choose words in order to pray properly, the Spirit himself expresses our plea in a way that could never be put into words, 27 and God who knows everything in our hearts knows perfectly well what he means, and that the pleas of the saints expressed by the Spirit are according to the mind of God. (Romans 8:26-27)
…and how did John the Baptist, in his mom’s womb, became cognizant of God walking into his presence?:
41 Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord? 44 For the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy. 45 Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’
(St. Luke 1:41-45)
Yahweh God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent… there’s nothing that escapes His Knowing!

…a person in such state of incapacity (as with infants and those with mental health/disorder issues) will no doubt be Met with God’s Mercy and Justice… remember one day to God is like a thousand years… God’s currency is not as ours:
6 Seek Yahweh while he is still to be found, call to him while he is still near. 7 Let the wicked man abandon his way, the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn back to Yahweh who will take pity on him, to our God who is rich in forgiving; 8 for my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways not your ways – it is Yahweh who speaks. 9 Yes, the heavens are as high above earth as my ways are above your ways, my thoughts above your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:6-9)
God’s Way is not our ways!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I’ll admit, though I accept Church teaching on Hell, I am troubled by the idea that God deliberately enacts punishment on the damned, beyond allowing them to suffer the consequences of their choices. Purgatory I fully understand as a process initiated by God to make us ready for Heaven, but the punishment of Hell has no end or goal and does not seem to be justice in any form understandable to us. That is why I like the Eastern notion that Heaven and Hell (and the cleansing we in the West call Purgatory) are the same, inevitable experience of God’s unveiled presence, differing based of the willingness of each soul to receive it rather than on anything God is deliberately doing. Of Western views of Hell, I prefer the metaphor of the gates being “locked from the inside” – that God would save all the damned and even the demons if they would permit it, but their wills remain fixed against Him. The Jack Chick image of a soul realizing all its mistakes and wanting another chance, only to be met with a “Too late” from God and a quick trip into the flames, does not sit right with me … yet obviously Scripture and Tradition do not allow me to reject the existence of Hell or the real possibility of human damnation.
Hi!

…I can’t recall a single time when the Church Teaches that God actively pursuits the punishment of people/angels in hell; I think that it is a misunderstanding that some have inferred from Scriptures, the writings of the Church Fathers, some zealousness from the pulpit, non-Catholic preaching… or a mishmash of it all:
13 Death was not God’s doing, he takes no pleasure in the extinction of the living.
(Wisdom 1:13)

23 What! Am I likely to take pleasure in the death of a wicked man – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?

32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:23, 32)
Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi!

…I can’t recall a single time when the Church Teaches that God actively pursuits the punishment of people/angels in hell; I think that it is a misunderstanding that some have inferred from Scriptures, the writings of the Church Fathers, some zealousness from the pulpit, non-Catholic preaching… or a mishmash of it all:

Maran atha!

Angel
The chief punishment of hell is separation from God, but that there are punishments in hell, that merit is rewarded and demerit punished both by divine origin, has been a fairly consistent teaching among Church theologians, including our most reknowned saints. You won’t find any Church teaching denying that God punishes the damned, either, and is traditionally argued that God’s punishing of the damned is from His goodness and is not contrary to it. This is intentionally ordered so by God for punishment.
 
The chief punishment of hell is separation from God, but that there are punishments in hell, that merit is rewarded and demerit punished both by divine origin, has been a fairly consistent teaching among Church theologians, including our most reknowned saints. You won’t find any Church teaching denying that God punishes the damned, either, and is traditionally argued that God’s punishing of the damned is from His goodness and is not contrary to it. This is intentionally ordered so by God for punishment.
Hi!

…it is one thing to argue that hell is a place of punishment and another that God pursuits our punishment (relishes, seeks us out in hell to punish us) in hell.

If one states/suggests/argues that God not only created hell for the punishment of the devil and his followers (angels/demons and man) and that He (God) actively punishes those in hell, the argument is in deed espousing God with evil not just Divine Justice.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…it is one thing to argue that hell is a place of punishment and another that God pursuits our punishment (relishes, seeks us out in hell to punish us) in hell.
That God punishes does not mean there’s any seeking or relishing…
If one states/suggests/argues that God not only created hell for the punishment of the devil and his followers (angels/demons and man) and that He (God) actively punishes those in hell, the argument is in deed espousing God with evil not just Divine Justice.
Maran atha!
Does it indeed? So most of the Church Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church espoused arguments equating God with evil?

Or perhaps your idea of goodness and divine justice differs from classical thinking, and it would be better to recognize that instead of just making such an absolute statement in condemnation of their view. And that does put parents and governments in a difficult spot…
 
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