It wasn’t an argument so much as a thought. I know I’m not the judge, so therefore, I do not condemn, not that I the authority anyway (obviously). Murder is obviously wrong, I’m confident God’s judgement will be based on circumstances, in which he of course knows all. That’s why I think it’s easy for humans to criticize others on matters that they can’t truly understand, because they only understand their particular perspective.Hi!
…the problem with such arguments is that they remove God from the equation… it is as though everything that the Holy Spirit can do is brushed out of existence:
…and how did John the Baptist, in his mom’s womb, became cognizant of God walking into his presence?:
Yahweh God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent… there’s nothing that escapes His Knowing!
…a person in such state of incapacity (as with infants and those with mental health/disorder issues) will no doubt be Met with God’s Mercy and Justice… remember one day to God is like a thousand years… God’s currency is not as ours:
God’s Way is not our ways!
Maran atha!
Angel
I agree. It’s just when you put yourself in those peoples shoes and really visualize what happens it changes your perspective. I’m guessing you or most anyone would not feel that they deserve to be in hell if they really didn’t have a chance in the first place to do things very righteously. But again, obviously it’s up to God and is somewhat “above” the church in many ways.On the one hand, men are given the ability to recognize right and wrong apart from being authoritatively told what it is. He might not find the faith, but he still has a conscience. On the other, there can be some pretty twisted environments that it’s hard to think someone ever had the chance to think rationally.
I don’t know how to judge anyone. I don’t know if anyone deserves to be in hell. God ultimately knows what’s in a person’s heart and mind, and we trust in Him to judge accordingly, including an account of individual circumstances.
Back in 2012, I saw Fr Joseph Mary Wolf of EWTN, giving a homily during mass on TV. It was about Fr Jose, an Indian priest from Karala India. Great story!Punish somebody for sin committed but to undergo the punishment send him to the arch enemy’s jurisdiction.
How this can be reconciled ? I mean our final judgement and punishment in hell.
Not for argument’s sake but for real clarification.
Hi!That God punishes does not mean there’s any seeking or relishing…
Does it indeed? So most of the Church Fathers, Saints, and Doctors of the Church espoused arguments equating God with evil?
Not condemning anyone’s views; I am fully ignorant of their opinions; I’m not an avid reader (inclusive of all books/authors such as the Church’s Fathers), could you quote some of these Fathers where they state that God pursuits those in hell so that He can further punish them?Or perhaps your idea of goodness and divine justice differs from classical thinking, and it would be better to recognize that instead of just making such an absolute statement in condemnation of their view. And that does put parents and governments in a difficult spot…
Hi!It wasn’t an argument so much as a thought. I know I’m not the judge, so therefore, I do not condemn, not that I the authority anyway (obviously). Murder is obviously wrong, I’m confident God’s judgement will be based on circumstances, in which he of course knows all. That’s why I think it’s easy for humans to criticize others on matters that they can’t truly understand, because they only understand their particular perspective.
Purgatory I fully understand as a process initiated by God to make us ready for Heaven, but the punishment of Hell has no end or goal and does not seem to be justice in any form understandable to us. That is why I like the Eastern notion that Heaven and Hell (and the cleansing we in the West call Purgatory) are the same, inevitable experience of God’s unveiled presence, differing based of the willingness of each soul to receive it rather than on anything God is deliberately doing. Of Western views of Hell, **I prefer the metaphor of the gates being “locked from the inside” – that God would save all the damned and even the demons if they would permit it, **but their wills remain fixed against Him. The Jack Chick image of a soul realizing all its mistakes and wanting another chance, only to be met with a “Too late” from God and a quick trip into the flames, does not sit right with me … yet obviously Scripture and Tradition do not allow me to reject the existence of Hell or the real possibility of human damnation.I’ll admit, though I accept Church teaching on Hell, **I am troubled by the idea that God deliberately enacts punishment on the damned, beyond allowing them to suffer the consequences of their choices. **
Hi!I agree. It’s just when you put yourself in those peoples shoes and really visualize what happens it changes your perspective. I’m guessing you or most anyone would not feel that they deserve to be in hell if they really didn’t have a chance in the first place to do things very righteously. But again, obviously it’s up to God and is somewhat “above” the church in many ways.
(Ezekiel 18:20-22)20 The man who has sinned is the one who must die; a son is not to suffer for the sins of his father, nor a father for the sins of his son. To the upright man his integrity will be credited, to the wicked his wickedness. 21 ‘But if the wicked man renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and honest, he will certainly live; he will not die. 22 All the sins he committed will be forgotten from then on; he shall live because of the integrity he has practised.
(St. John 3:19-20)19 On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed;
Hi!I don’t believe in any god or gods but if there is one or many I would definitely reject to approach to them, if I had the chance, after realizing that they do exist and are all powerful, because if that is the case they must be definitely evil, no doubt.
It’s not only that I don’t believe in any god but also if any of the gods exist and were all powerful I would definitely reject them, because I’m entirely convinced that they must be evil.
Therefore, I don’t believe in the Catholic “God” and since that particular faith claims he’s all powerful, I would REJECT that God too if he exists.
Hi, Joseie!It is a fact that not much has been revealed to us about hell and the type of suffering there which the punished soul (with body ?)has to undergo eternally.It would appear that God wants us to just consider it as a dirty,suffering ,frightening ,unbearable place to be avoided.
As christians/catholics we are supposed to live here as commanded by God and aim to be with him in heaven after death.If you reject him ,go to hell and suffer.Don’t bother about the exact nature of the life and enjoyment in heaven or the suffering in hell.But still some confirmed aspects about these are interesting.
(1) Heaven is made in the beginning itself and kept prepared and ready to receive good people.But hell was originally meant for satan and the fallen angels.
(2) No indication that Satan or the fallen angels (which constitutes ,not a few but one third) ever regretted or will regret the turning away from God.
(3). The biggest suffering in hell is the feeling that they lost the company of God.( Satan &co. clearely won’t have such a suffering.?)
(4)We resurrect with body.So bodily suffering will also be there in hell.(But again about organs if the body not clear- whether in heaven also)
In short,my feeling is : Be conscious about hell or heaven but don’t unnecessarily try to think about how the things work there!
, then, so that you and your descendants may live, (Deuteronomy 30:19)19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today: I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life
(St. Matthew 8:29)29 They stood there shouting, ‘What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torture us before the time?’
Can you explain why you feel all powerful absolutely must equal evil?I don’t believe in any god or gods but if there is one or many I would definitely reject to approach to them, if I had the chance, after realizing that they do exist and are all powerful, because if that is the case they must be definitely evil, no doubt.
It’s not only that I don’t believe in any god but also if any of the gods exist and were all powerful I would definitely reject them, because I’m entirely convinced that they must be evil.
Therefore, I don’t believe in the Catholic “God” and since that particular faith claims he’s all powerful, I would REJECT that God too if he exists.
Deferring to a very smart saint and doctor of the Church, St Thomas Aquinas, who said,I don’t believe in any god or gods but if there is one or many I would definitely reject to approach to them, if I had the chance, after realizing that they do exist and are all powerful, because if that is the case they must be definitely evil, no doubt.
It’s not only that I don’t believe in any god but also if any of the gods exist and were all powerful I would definitely reject them, because I’m entirely convinced that they must be evil.
Therefore, I don’t believe in the Catholic “God” and since that particular faith claims he’s all powerful, I would REJECT that God too if he exists.