Final Perserverance

[TinaG]

Hi!

This particular thread is to address the contention that Catholics are closet Calvinists.
Or that Calvinists are closet Catholics.

POSSIBLY you may want to ferret out the theological distinction at work that I do not see, and that is that in the Calvinist worldview, God elects people and gives them perseverance. In the Catholic worldview, God gives only some final perseverance - but that is still a gift that He gives as He chooses sovereignly. They sound the same to me! My suspicion is that Calvinists and Catholics agree on this issue, the only difference being one of terminology.

I would hope that we could restrict the discussion to this one issue, and not bring in the various other matters on which there is, uh, disagreement. Perhaps we can patch this whole Reformation thing up and sing kum ba yah at sunset! I will bring marshmellows if you bring the chocolate, and someone else can bring crackers!

Thank you very much!

-Tina “Here I Go Again” G

 

[Bearontherun]

From my understanding, God gives all those who follow him the grace of final perserverance. He also gives us the free will to accept it or to reject it.

 

[Anthony_V]

Let’s break this down into a simpler context.

Calvinism:
Perseverance-- given by election

Catholicism:
Perseverance-- given by mutual will

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Now at first you might say, “hey! That’s the same thing!”
Here’s the difference; God’s will is most certainly done, but not that it impedes the freewill of choosing between God or not. This does not insinuate that the intended result of the sinner’s will is completed, but rather the action of willing against God (which in itself is an effect of the sinner’s will).
God does not choose “some men”.
God chooses all men, and graces the ones who respond to his call by reciprocating such grace.
Unlike only choosing “some men”, which is permanent and unchangeable (as God’s will is), salvation is reliant on the person and their response BECAUSE of God’s initial call. It is changeable, because it lies on that which may change-- the people-- by the will of God’s unchangeable initial call.
If we back up to Genesis, God of course has the tree of knowledge to implement free will. Without this tree, there is not a completion of free will, and thus no opportunity for charity. God sees any amount of love greater than that of infinite evil.

Did that answer your question maybe?

 

[TinaG]

Before I respond I need to do a lot of reading.

Thanks

-Tina"Mostly Illiterate" G

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The phraseology “Perseverance of the Saints” is from St Augustine, and a thoroughly Catholic concept. Basically, you’re not saved unless and until you persevere.

The Calvinist/Reformed tradition borrowed that terminology, but invented a new definition for it, particularly Eternal Security (also called Once Saved, Always Saved). This is not perseverance at all though, for there is nothing to persevere in; you’re secure from the moment you believe.

For example, take Matthew 24:12f,
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Notice how Jesus warns the love of many Christians “will grow cold,” indicating not all will persevere. This is the Biblical, Augustinian, and Catholic view, but does not fit the Calvinist understanding of salvation.