Finally, Catholic Answers comes clean with the mormon threat ownership.

[East_Anglican]

For all their errors, at least the Evangelicals are Christians. I regard the mormon attempts at conversion even worse than an invasion of moslems because of the deception practiced by mormon "missionaries.’ They preach polytheism in the guise of Christianity and dupe the people. Unsuspecting people are torn from their religious heritage and taught a false doctrine. You should be ashamed of yourself for defending such poison.

AMEN

:clapping:

 

[why_me]

To those of you who think we are “refusing” to answer your questions: Be honest - it would not matter what the answers were. You have already decided that our faith is wrong and that yours is right. What is the point of arguing?

I, for one, am off to greener pastures. Try not to get to happy about it

Annie

You are right of course. There is no reason to take the bait. Too bad you are leaving. It can be tough here but it is also interesting to read the antimormon slants.

 

[why_me]

I’m not angry or bitter.

Catholics, are you angry or bitter?

“completely misinformed”. Well, I’m not misinformed. I don’t know thing one about the LDS faith. I know they made good commercials. I know they ring my doorbell.

There are a few seemingly angry LDS members here who don’t like Catholicism. I don’t think that’s a fair sampling of all LDS people, though.

The lds who post here do like the catholic faith. But they don’t like to have the lds faith attacked and mocked. And can you blame them? I don’t.

 

[East_Anglican]

Thank you. I had a look, and I found this passage expressing quite eloquently the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy:

After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and the presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth. Much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. The doctrines of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten. The priesthood authority given to Christ’s Apostles was no longer present on the earth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many churches.

zerinus

Get behind me Satan!

It is written

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.[c] **19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”

The Gates of Hades never overcame The Church and they never will! Jesus Christ siad it! The real Jesus Christ said it, not the Jesus Christ Mormonns talk about!

It is written "One God, One Faith, One Baptism. One God! Not millions of them!**

 

[East_Anglican]

If you preach about a Restoration of the Church, then you are preaching a lie.

Amen!

The Walls of The Heavenly Zion stand for ever.

 

[ralphinal]

I can only answer that by referring you to the 4 posts to which I had previously referred. That is how it was done in the biblical church. If you think that is “unfair,” you are finding fault with the Lord and His Apostles, not with us.

zerinus

Not so! The vast majority of the first converts were already Jewish and already had the knowledge of God and the scriptures. Basically, they just had to be shown that Jesus fulfilled them and how. In other words, they already had started RCIA. So if someone comes and expresses an interest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, are the major differences between traditional Christianity and CoJCoLDS told up front or later?

 

[majick275]

The lds who post here do like the catholic faith. But they don’t like to have the lds faith attacked and mocked. And can you blame them? I don’t.

and the scientologists say the exact same thing. of course you seem okay with LDS scriptures calling the creeds an abomination in the sight of God. is that not an attack that mocks the catholic church?

 

[zerinus]

Not so! The vast majority of the first converts were already Jewish and already had the knowledge of God and the scriptures. Basically, they just had to be shown that Jesus fulfilled them and how. In other words, they already had started RCIA.

Not true. That principle was applied equally to non-Jewish converts, and I had given you several examples.

On the other hand, looking at it from another angle, if that was the criterion, why does the Catholic Church have RCIA for Christian converts—i.e. from Protestantism or the Orthodox? They already have a Christian background; all they need to know is that the Catholic Church has an unbroken line of authority from Peter, and they are done. Whey RCIA for them? Are not they in the same situation vis-à-vis the Catholic Church as the Jews were relative to early Christianity?

So if someone comes and expresses an interest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, are the major differences between traditional Christianity and CoJCoLDS told up front or later?

All they need to know is to have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true, and repent of their sins. They also need to know what is expected of them as members of the Church, and what it means to be a Latter-day Saint, which can be explained to them after a few days of instruction. No further indoctrination is required. That is how it was done in the early Church, and that is how it is done today.

But again, looking at it from a different angle, the “major differences” are in fact taught to them. The most important “difference” by far is the fact that God the Father and the Son are two distinct and separate personages, which is indeed taught to them. They encounter that doctrine early on in the form of the Joseph Smith Testimony, which gives an account of Joseph’s First Vision.

The second most important “difference” must be the pre-existence, the war in heaven that followed, the casting out of Satan and those who followed him, who became the “devil and his angel;” while the righteous were reserved to be born on earth, with Jesus acting as their Savior and Redeemer. That is also taught to them.

Other important “differences” are baptisms for the dead, and marriage for eternity in the temples, which are also taught to them. Likewise our belief in modern day revelation, an open canon of scripture, the restoration of the Priesthood, the calling of modern prophets and Apostles are all “major differences” that are taught to them.

So you are very much in error by saying that the “major differences” are not taught to them.

zerinus

 

[ralphinal]

Not true. That principle was applied equally to non-Jewish converts, and I had given you several examples.

On the other hand, looking at it from another angle, if that was the criterion, why does the Catholic Church have RCIA for Christian converts—i.e. from Protestantism or the Orthodox? They already have a Christian background; all they need to know is that the Catholic Church has an unbroken line of authority from Peter, and they are done. Whey RCIA for them? Are not they in the same situation vis-à-vis the Catholic Church as the Jews were relative to early Christianity?

All they need to know is to have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true, and repent of their sins. They also need to know what is expected of them as members of the Church, and what it means to be a Latter-day Saint, which can be explained to them after a few days of instruction. No further indoctrination is required. That is how it was done in the early Church, and that is how it is done today.

But again, looking at it from a different angle, the “major differences” are in fact taught to them. The most important “difference” by far is the fact that God the Father and the Son are two distinct and separate personages, which is indeed taught to them. They encounter that doctrine early on in the form of the Joseph Smith Testimony, which gives an account of Joseph’s First Vision.

The second most important “difference” must be the pre-existence, the war in heaven that followed, the casting out of Satan and those who followed him, who became the “devil and his angel;” while the righteous were reserved to be born on earth, with Jesus acting as their Savior and Redeemer. That is also taught to them.

Other important “differences” are baptisms for the dead, and marriage for eternity in the temples, which are also taught to them. Likewise our belief in modern day revelation, an open canon of scripture, the restoration of the Priesthood, the calling of modern prophets and Apostles are all “major differences” that are taught to them.

So you are very much in error by saying that the “major differences” are not taught to them.

zerinus

I meant no disrespect. I was asking if these things were taught before conversion or after. I am not trying to imply that Mormons decieve anyone intentionally. Thank you for clarifying the process for me.

Simply put, can someone become a Mormon on a whim? I would think that the answer is no. Would you agree?

 

[zerinus]

I meant no disrespect. I was asking if these things were taught before conversion or after. I am not trying to imply that Mormons decieve anyone intentionally. Thank you for clarifying the process for me.

Simply put, can someone become a Mormon on a whim? I would think that the answer is no. Would you agree?

Absolutely. How can someone accept the Book of Mormon as a book of scripture, and a revelation from God, on a “whim”? That is a ridiculous thing to claim. By far the most important ingredient in anyone’s conversion is the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the church is true. That is something that cannot be “taught” to anyone. That can only come to someone by the will of God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. You can “teach” somebody in an academic setting for a million years; yet without that they would be none the wiser. That is what ultimately brings people into the Church. It does not happen on a whim.

zerinus

 

[ralphinal]

Absolutely. How can someone accept the Book of Mormon as a book of scripture, and a revelation from God, on a “whim”? That is a ridiculous thing to claim. By far the most important ingredient in anyone’s conversion is the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the church is true. That is something that cannot be “taught” to anyone. That can only come to someone by the will of God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. You can “teach” somebody in an academic setting for a million years; yet without that they would be none the wiser. That is what ultimately brings people into the Church. It does not happen on a whim.

zerinus

Thanks for clearing that up. It seemed like that was what the other posts said. I had a feeling that was not what you meant.

 

[PaulDupre]

Absolutely. How can someone accept the Book of Mormon as a book of scripture, and a revelation from God, on a “whim”? That is a ridiculous thing to claim. By far the most important ingredient in anyone’s conversion is the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the church is true. That is something that cannot be “taught” to anyone. That can only come to someone by the will of God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. You can “teach” somebody in an academic setting for a million years; yet without that they would be none the wiser. That is what ultimately brings people into the Church. It does not happen on a whim.

zerinus

Z,

Do you really believe that everyone, or even most, who join the LDS church have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?

Paul

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

May I ask where you got these questions from, and what makes you so sure that this is what we actually believe or teach?

zerinus

zerinus,

I got these Questions from doing some research about different religions and from what i have heard said from other. I have know idea weather or not that you believe them or not thats why I asked. I looked on LDS sites and can not get clear answers I do not go to the LDS forums to ask as I do not wish to appear confrontational as this is a forum of my of people from my faith that those of the Mormon faith have choose to come to I thought that it was the perfect opportunity to ask. One of the thing I like to do is read and study other religions/faiths. I know quite a bit of most the Protestant faiths as I have many family members in them and we discuss the difference in our faith quite often. As I said these questions I asked were to get a clear understanding of
what the LDS believe. If you can not answer could you give a link to a book that would contain the answers along with were in the book. I would and do the same for those with question about the catholic faith or I just say I don’t know.

 

[cascherman]

wow, this thread is kinda ‘No duh’. Was there any question that Catholics do not support the Mormon religion?

It’s apparently okay for Mormons to evangelize and in the process claim other religions are wrong by claiming theirs is right. But, a Catholic organization cannot try to stop our own brethren for leaving our Church? This is not Okay?

 

[zerinus]

Thanks for clearing that up. It seemed like that was what the other posts said. I had a feeling that was not what you meant.

Well, that is what anti-Mormons like to pretend, by falsifying what we do and what we teach. It is in fact taught in our scripture that converts to the Church should have the foundational doctrines of the Church explained to them:

D&C 20:

68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism.—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.

But we don’t need to spend 12 months doing it. It can just as easily done in a few weeks.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Z,

Do you really believe that everyone, or even most, who join the LDS church have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?

Paul

Yes, I do.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, that is what anti-Mormons like to pretend, by falsifying what we do and what we teach. It is in fact taught in our scripture that converts to the Church should have the foundational doctrines of the Church explained to them:
D&C 20:

68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism.—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.But we don’t need to spend 12 months doing it. It can just as easily done in a few weeks.

zerinus

No it can’t. You spring the mormon temple ceremony on people, which has shocked converts right out of your church. Stop lying.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus,

I got these Questions from doing some research about different religions and from what i have heard said from other.

You obtained them from anti-Mormon sources, pure and simple. Let’s not beat about the bush. If you were seriously interested in learning about Mormonism, you would have gone to the Church’s official website to obtain it, not from an anti-Mormon source.

I have know idea weather or not that you believe them or not thats why I asked.

You did not. You presumed that that is what we believe, without ascertaining first whether we actually believed them or not. Your post was arrogant, conceited, and presumptuous; and that is why I decided not to reply to it.

I looked on LDS sites and can not get clear answers . . .

“Clear answers” about what? The LDS website teaches what we do believe; not a million other things which we do not believe.

One of the thing I like to do is read and study other religions/faiths. I know quite a bit of most the Protestant faiths as I have many family members in them and we discuss the difference in our faith quite often. As I said these questions I asked were to get a clear understanding of what the LDS believe. If you can not answer could you give a link to a book that would contain the answers along with were in the book.

Books about LDS beliefs (unless they are anti-Mormon books) tend to tell you what we do believe, not a million other things that we are falsely accused of believing, which we don’t believe.

I would and do the same for those with question about the catholic faith or I just say I don’t know.

If you would rephrase your questions for me in a more acceptable, less confrontational way, without presuming anything before you start, I will try to answer them for you.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t debate truth because such debates end with feelings of ill will. I let people have their own truths as long as such truth is centered in goodness and righteousness.

You should read USA Today today. There is something about religion in America. The mormons make up 1.6% and the catholics make up a much higher percentage. The immigrant community is mainly catholic. The mormons represent no threat to anyone. Utah was a mormon state. It was founded by mormons. But one thing I do know is that the mormon church and the catholic church in Utah do have a good relationship with each other. And there is respect. Now is it easy being catholic in Utah? No. But then again it is not very easy to be mormon in Italy or Ireland either. And I would venture to add that it is not easy being mormon in most parts of the world. Catholics only have Utah to worry about…the mormons on the end, are a minority religion throughout the world.

I have good neighbors, for the most part. Though, my experience is that they are always trying to get me to church. I have had people help me with my yard work, followed by an invitation to church. Asked to attend neighborhood parties, followed by an invitation to church. Attended the nice 85th birthday of a kind gentleman neighbor, followed by an invitation to church. I haven’t had one, not one, mormon neighbor who has been able to be friendly without an invitation to attend church! When I say, no thank you, I never hear from them again. The occasional wave as I drive down the street. A note, asking me to attend some relief society function. Mormons are not able to socialize outside of their church is the only conclusion I can come to.

I don’t live in Ireland or Italy, I live in Utah. So telling me that it is probably the same, somewhere else…so what?

As far as I am concerned, the mormon church is friendly to the Catholic church for the same reason my mormon neighbors are friendly with me. Hoping to make a convert or two, and for the mormon church, getting a little good PR at the same time. The same reason the mormon church donated millions to the 2002 Olympics. They have this need to “look good”.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, I do.

zerinus

Then you’ve obviously never served a mission - especially a foreign mission. I have.

A large percentage of the baptisms in foreign missions are those of young women who get converted to the missionary, not the gospel. Most of these baptisms happen within 2 - 4 weeks after first contact (that’s 2 - 4 hours of instruction and 1 or maybe 2 times at meetings). Soon after “her American” is transfered and the young lady realizes that he is not going to marry her and take her to America, she goes inactive.

So one year later, when another pair of mishies is looking up inactives, the young lady doesn’t even remember which church it was that she “joined”. She does, however remember “her American” and still has his picture.

As a missionary in Taiwan (where they had a 5% convert retention rate), much of our time was spent contacting inactives. I heard this same story every day. The same thing happens to a lesser extent in domestic missions.

It is incredibly naive to think, in a system where baptisms are done after just a few hours of contact with the missionaries, that all “convert baptisms” are true conversions. It may happen occasionally, but it is not the norm.

That is why the LDS church has such an abyssmal convert retention rate.

Paul