Finally, Catholic Answers comes clean with the mormon threat ownership.

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

You obtained them from anti-Mormon sources, pure and simple. Let’s not beat about the bush. If you were seriously interested in learning about Mormonism, you would have gone to the Church’s official website to obtain it, not from an anti-Mormon source.

You did not. You presumed that that is what we believe, without ascertaining first whether we actually believed them or not. Your post was arrogant, conceited, and presumptuous; and that is why I decided not to reply to it.

“Clear answers” about what? The LDS website teaches what we do believe; not a million other things which we do not believe.

Books about LDS beliefs (unless they are anti-Mormon books) tend to tell you what we do believe, not a million other things that we are falsely accused of believing, which we don’t believe.

If you would rephrase your questions for me in a more acceptable, less confrontational way, without presuming anything before you start, I will try to answer them for you.

zerinus

First of all I find it very insulting that you presume to say that I have not been honest in what have said to you in regard to my post to you or my questions. If you do not wish to answer the question by either denying that the belief in these or by confirming them and giving clarification and supporting reference then just say so. There is no reason to be insulting I have not been insulting to you. I have not made any statement as to what and what the LDS teach or believe I have asked question about what I have read and heard that you believe ( not form anti Mormon site) as I try to avoid anti any anything site as they tend to not be truthful in content and have a agenda so that even if they do give factual information it is slanted and miss representing of the real truth.

If my question come across as confrontational I apologize But I know of no other way to ask them. Regardless of the answer that you are to give ( if you chose to answer) I am not the kind of person to start telling whether or not your right or wrong. that is not how I am. I have a friend that is a JW we disagree about a great many thing concerning one another’s religion, but will are able to ask one another question and give each other answers. If one ask a question that the other can not answer we tell each other that we’ll get back to you, and in the next few day we do.
I guess I was looking for someone of the Mormon faith that was just as open to discussing their beliefs and maybe some day I will find one. I though that since You were on this site that is why you were here.

As I said I have been to official LDS site and can find no answers to these question. So I have know idea if they are belief held by the LDS or if they have been made up.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The only shunning I have ever experienced was from a friend of mine who left the LDS church:she would not even speak to me at all - I told her that I did not care that she left the church as I am sure she had her reasons. I told her that I just valued her friendship and did not want to lose it. She shunned me and I lost what I considered to be a dear friend.

Annie

I have personally witnessed the shunning by LDS members of those who have stopped going to their church. I have also confirmed this experience with others. It may not be in accordance with the teachings of the LDS church but it is a common practice.

 

[MelanieAnne]

That’s what I like about Catholicism. In RCIA, you get all the rules upfront. Any question you ask is honestly and forthrightly answered.

Thankfully, I live out of a hotel (job-related travel) 9 months out of the year. No Mormons ever come around, but their book sits in the drawer…collecting dust.

Agreed. Nothing is hidden at a Catholic RCIA.

On the other hand, the Mormons hide some of their weirdest stuff, not just from potential converts, but sometimes from some of their regular members ~ things like detailed discussions about the magic rocks used to translate the Book of Mormon can set off a firestorm, so they are avoided. I find the hiding of doctrine to be problematic.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I will say, that perhaps you should come inside the Cathedral one day. You will see that it is CATHOLIC. You can worship Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sanctuary. And you can pray with Mary in Our Lady of Zion chapel. And you can read the few scriptures that are painted in large, beautiful script, surrounded by stained glass, angels and saints. One of those scriptures says: “Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”,

We went to the Cathedral the day before Christmas Eve (we had been warned about the crowds that would be there Christmas Eve!) It is truly a beautiful building, no doubt historic, with lovely stained glass and dramatic quotes from scripture just as Rebecca has described. It was a wonderful experience. I recommend it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

zerinus,

I for one would never presume to tell you or any one that your religion is false. So I will ask you to clarify some things that all us believe that the LDS teach.

1)God the father has a physical body and lives on a distant plant with a wife and raising a family.

1. That Jesus was the first born of is God couple and him and his younger brother Lucifer both came to earth to lead people to God.
2. That we can become gods ourselves and create our own universes/worlds of people to be gods of.
3. That Adam and eve did not sin when they ate from the tree of life and where cast from the garden.

Please show me were in any old or new testament or writings of the early 1st century Church that any of these is beliefs were held or taught.

You won’t get an answer from mormons because they believe you need to learn the milk before you learn the meat. And this is some meaty stuff.

The site mormon.com is aimed at proselytizing, so there is no meat there, at all. Only “basic beliefs”, which appear Christian.

lds.org has the meat, if you know what to search for. This manual is the course material for new converts.

In this manual, you’ll find the answers to your questions here:

#1 God has a physical body - page 10
God is raising a family - page 11
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob (not in this manual, see mormon scripture, referenced in this wikipedia article)

#2 Jesus and Satan are brothers - page 17-19

#3 men become gods - chapter 47

#4 Adam and Eve - page 33 and 34

 

[dolphinlove]

First of all I find it very insulting that you presume to say that I have not been honest in what have said to you in regard to my post to you or my questions. If you do not wish to answer the question by either denying that the belief in these or by confirming them and giving clarification and supporting reference then just say so. There is no reason to be insulting I have not been insulting to you. I have not made any statement as to what and what the LDS teach or believe I have asked question about what I have read and heard that you believe ( not form anti Mormon site) as I try to avoid anti any anything site as they tend to not be truthful in content and have a agenda so that even if they do give factual information it is slanted and miss representing of the real truth.

If my question come across as confrontational I apologize But I know of no other way to ask them. Regardless of the answer that you are to give ( if you chose to answer) I am not the kind of person to start telling whether or not your right or wrong. that is not how I am. I have a friend that is a JW we disagree about a great many thing concerning one another’s religion, but will are able to ask one another question and give each other answers. If one ask a question that the other can not answer we tell each other that we’ll get back to you, and in the next few day we do.
I guess I was looking for someone of the Mormon faith that was just as open to discussing their beliefs and maybe some day I will find one. I though that since You were on this site that is why you were here.

As I said I have been to official LDS site and can find no answers to these question. So I have know idea if they are belief held by the LDS or if they have been made up.

Your questions are not confrontational nor insulting, i think most would have trouble defending the beliefs of the LDS church, period.
To stop people asking questions, they get angry and defensive cause they know the answers are… well… lets just say not very logical… and try to change the subject. Happens all the time.

 

[zerinus]

I have not made any statement as to what and what the LDS teach or believe I have asked question about what I have read and heard that you believe (not form anti Mormon site) . . .

You did make a statement as to what we do and do not believe. This is what you said:

Please show me were in any old or new testament or writings of the early 1st century Church that any of these is beliefs were held or taught.

That implies, and takes for granted, that what you had written is what we actually believe, without ascertaining first whether in fact that is what we believe—and yes, it did come from an anti-Mormon source. You did not obtain it from the LDS website.

If you would rephrase that question differently, so that it asks us what we believe, rather than presume to tell us what we believe, I will try to answer it for you.

zerinus

 

[why_me]

You won’t get an answer from mormons because they believe you need to learn the milk before you learn the meat. And this is some meaty stuff.

The site mormon.com is aimed at proselytizing, so there is no meat there, at all. Only “basic beliefs”, which appear Christian.

lds.org has the meat, if you know what to search for. This manual is the course material for new converts.

In this manual, you’ll find the answers to your questions here:

#1 God has a physical body - page 10
God is raising a family - page 11
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob (not in this manual, see mormon scripture, referenced in this wikipedia article)

#2 Jesus and Satan are brothers - page 17-19

#3 men become gods - chapter 47

#4 Adam and Eve - page 33 and 34

So it is in the manual? Nothing is hidden. What’s the problem? Most investigators attend the lds church for awhile before being bapitized. They learn the gospel there too.

 

[MSParrott]

Still waiting for an answer…

I was reading this site actually and want to ask an honest question.

We can never become like Christ - we can strive to be like Him, but we simply cannot be joint-heirs - Like many of the LDS have said on here, Christ was the ONLY perfect one. Now you say that we are Mary “worshippers” and wrong because we ask for her intercession and for the intercession of the Saints - but it’s okay for you to believe that one day we can, ourselves be joint-heirs?

I’m really searching for an honest answer here.

It seems like LDS is bashing Catholicism things we believe in, but yet we are wrong to question the beliefs of the LDS. If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.

 

[MSParrott]

I was reading this site actually and want to ask an honest question.

6. Divine Potential of Human Beings

 

[East_Anglican]

I don’t debate truth because such debates end with feelings of ill will. I let people have their own truths as long as such truth is centered in goodness and righteousness.

That sounds like utilitarian nonsense to me.

Come on, we know you don’t really believe that.

Mormomnism pulls people away from the true Christ, there’s nothing good in that.

 

[East_Anglican]

Not true. That principle was applied equally to non-Jewish converts, and I had given you several examples.

On the other hand, looking at it from another angle, if that was the criterion, why does the Catholic Church have RCIA for Christian converts—i.e. from Protestantism or the Orthodox? They already have a Christian background; all they need to know is that the Catholic Church has an unbroken line of authority from Peter, and they are done. Whey RCIA for them? Are not they in the same situation vis-à-vis the Catholic Church as the Jews were relative to early Christianity?

All they need to know is to have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Church is true, and repent of their sins. They also need to know what is expected of them as members of the Church, and what it means to be a Latter-day Saint, which can be explained to them after a few days of instruction. No further indoctrination is required. That is how it was done in the early Church, and that is how it is done today.

But again, looking at it from a different angle, the “major differences” are in fact taught to them. The most important “difference” by far is the fact that God the Father and the Son are two distinct and separate personages, which is indeed taught to them. They encounter that doctrine early on in the form of the Joseph Smith Testimony, which gives an account of Joseph’s First Vision.

The second most important “difference” must be the pre-existence, the war in heaven that followed, the casting out of Satan and those who followed him, who became the “devil and his angel;” while the righteous were reserved to be born on earth, with Jesus acting as their Savior and Redeemer. That is also taught to them.

Other important “differences” are baptisms for the dead, and marriage for eternity in the temples, which are also taught to them. Likewise our belief in modern day revelation, an open canon of scripture, the restoration of the Priesthood, the calling of modern prophets and Apostles are all “major differences” that are taught to them.

So you are very much in error by saying that the “major differences” are not taught to them.

zerinus

Paul was a Jew to Jews and a Gentile to gentiles. Pauls sermon in Athens was totally differatn to Peters sermon in Jerusalem. Even with the differance they both preached the same thing. Mormonism is not the gospel it is another gospel. Paul said "If anyone preaches another gospel let him be acursed. mormonism is acursed.

 

[East_Anglican]

Well, that is what anti-Mormons like to pretend, by falsifying what we do and what we teach. It is in fact taught in our scripture that converts to the Church should have the foundational doctrines of the Church explained to them:

D&C 20:

68 The duty of the members after they are received by baptism.—The elders or priests are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their understanding, previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.

But we don’t need to spend 12 months doing it. It can just as easily done in a few weeks.

zerinus

But it is never explianed tthat the true Church never needed rebuilding because it is eternal.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

The Church is the body of Christ who is the same yesterday today and forever.

 

[East_Anglican]

I meant no disrespect. I was asking if these things were taught before conversion or after. I am not trying to imply that Mormons decieve anyone intentionally. Thank you for clarifying the process for me.

Simply put, can someone become a Mormon on a whim? I would think that the answer is no. Would you agree?

Certain things are taught after conversion because prior to conversion tcertain things would sound to ridiculous.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Zakuska is busy on mormonapologetics. Perhaps I will notify him to come on over again. But Z will return. He has some good arguments to keep you guys honest.

I would like to see you be kept honest. You present yourself as a Catholic who is Mormon-friendly and “Outraged at the poor treatment of Mormons” when in fact you are LDS yourself…

If you were an otherwise disinterested neutral third party, you would not focus on all things Mormon on here, and would raise similar objections and concerns about or against Catholic Answers when CA or CAF members started talking about other non-Catholic groups and movements. Yet it is always and exclusively Mormon threads you come to for posting.

 

[East_Anglican]

MSParrott:
mormons believe in exaltation or diefication.

 

[ralphinal]

Certain things are taught after conversion because prior to conversion tcertain things would sound to ridiculous.

It seems to be that way on the surface. I will take zerinus at his word, as I have never known him to lie. From what I gather from him, no deception is intended.

To me, and I know that I am Catholic and can only see things as a Catholic, it is only fair to put your whole faith in front of people and let them decide. Explain what is not understood. Show where misconceptions are. Defend the teachings. But, let the whole faith be known up-front and for all.

Scientology, for example, fails miserably at this.

 

[East_Anglican]

It seems to be that way on the surface. I will take zerinus at his word, as I have never known him to lie. From what I gather from him, no deception is intended.

To me, and I know that I am Catholic and can only see things as a Catholic, it is only fair to put your whole faith in front of people and let them decide. Explain what is not understood. Show where misconceptions are. Defend the teachings. But, let the whole faith be known up-front and for all.

Scientology, for example, fails miserably at this.

As an Anglican Christian with Catholic leanings I would do this also.

We are Christians and not Gnostics.

Mormons are Gnostics and not Christians.

I have to say it how it is. We are told to let our light shine.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thank you Rebbecca ans Dolphin for your kind words I was starting to think maybe I was being nasty in the way I asked my questions.

To out dear friend z I will rephrase the last sentence or my post with the 4 Questions. If these are beliefs held and taught By the LDS church can you show me were In any ancient Hebrew writings, the Old and/or the New Testaments, or !st century Church writings that would support such belief. If they are not teaching of the LDS not just say so. I look forward to your answers.

 

[zerinus]

To out dear friend z I will rephrase the last sentence or my post with the 4 Questions. If these are beliefs held and taught By the LDS church can you show me were In any ancient Hebrew writings, the Old and/or the New Testaments, or !st century Church writings that would support such belief. If they are not teaching of the LDS not just say so. I look forward to your answers.

The answer is no, they are not the beliefs of the LDS Church.

zerinus