Finally, Catholic Answers comes clean with the mormon threat ownership.

[hosemonkey]

So, just like you support discrediting Mormonism by attacking the character of Mormons, you now defend anti-Mormonism by attacking those who question it. At least you’re consistent.

consistency is my first, no wait, my last, no wait… aha!, my MIDDLE name.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Gentlemen, this latest bout of arguing is both off-topic as well as unproductive.

 

[hosemonkey]

Gentlemen, this latest bout of arguing is both off-topic as well as unproductive.

Sorry,Mom.

 

[East_Anglican]

Oh, you meant like SAINT Peter, the Apostle and the first to hold papal authority — the same one who deined Christ three times? Talk about dirty laundry! Does SAINT Peter’s denial of Christ mean he isn’t a saint?

Roman Catholics are part of The Christian religion. Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ.

Good try!

There’s plenty about Mormonism that is wrong according to what Roman Catholics know without bringing that up.

The fact is if Joseph Smith told the truth Jesus was a liar.

God wouldn’t tell Joseph Smith to build his church because Jesus is the builder.

The cornerstone of we Christians faith is Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

“Doctrine” being the key word. Doctrine is what makes a religion true or false, not misconduct of its members.

Hence Mormonism is false.
]

 

[MarysRoses]

OK,

I have been reading this thread for a while, and lost in the swamp of side issues, I find this:

A question (actually four of them) is asked:

zerinus,

I for one would never presume to tell you or any one that your religion is false. So I will ask you to clarify some things that all us believe that the LDS teach.

1)God the father has a physical body and lives on a distant plant with a wife and raising a family.

1. That Jesus was the first born of is God couple and him and his younger brother Lucifer both came to earth to lead people to God.
2. That we can become gods ourselves and create our own universes/worlds of people to be gods of.
3. That Adam and eve did not sin when they ate from the tree of life and where cast from the garden.

Please show me were in any old or new testament or writings of the early 1st century Church that any of these is beliefs were held or taught.

No answers are forthcoming… we’ve all read the thread…

finally, someone comes up with a legitimate source, listed on a Mormon website:

You won’t get an answer from mormons because they believe you need to learn the milk before you learn the meat. And this is some meaty stuff.

The site mormon.com is aimed at proselytizing, so there is no meat there, at all. Only “basic beliefs”, which appear Christian.

lds.org has the meat, if you know what to search for. This manual is the course material for new converts.

In this manual, you’ll find the answers to your questions here:

#1 God has a physical body - page 10
God is raising a family - page 11
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob (not in this manual, see mormon scripture, referenced in this wikipedia article)

#2 Jesus and Satan are brothers - page 17-19

#3 men become gods - chapter 47

#4 Adam and Eve - page 33 and 34

I have read the pertinent sections of the posted manual, and some other material in it besides. It definitely supports the idea that Satan is the brother of Jesus and other points. So it does seem reasonable to me that the answer to those questions would be yes.

OK, so here we have it from a mormon source (www.lds.org “gospel library”) and then we get the following conflicting responses:

So it is in the manual? Nothing is hidden. What’s the problem? Most investigators attend the lds church for awhile before being bapitized. They learn the gospel there too.

Zerinius though begs to differ with Why me…

In response to this question:

Thank you Rebbecca ans Dolphin for your kind words I was starting to think maybe I was being nasty in the way I asked my questions.

To out dear friend z I will rephrase the last sentence or my post with the 4 Questions. If these are beliefs held and taught By the LDS church can you show me were In any ancient Hebrew writings, the Old and/or the New Testaments, or !st century Church writings that would support such belief. If they are not teaching of the LDS not just say so. I look forward to your answers.

Zerinius responds:

The answer is no, they are not the beliefs of the LDS Church.

zerinus

I thank you. Now I have it from a member that these are not what your church teaches. I can now tell others that have been told directly from a Mormon that these are not their beliefs. And all others on this thread now know this as well. Now that the some of the issues of what turn out to be false have been addressed maybe we can talk about what we share in faith.

Such as we do not believe that God has a physical body, or has wife or is living on some distance plant raising a family.

Non of us believe that the Lord Jesus and Lucifer are brother.

Non believe that we can become gods.

Adam and eve did sin when they ate from the tree and were cast out.

It a good start are there other common beliefs we share?

Thats where this exchange ends so far…

I am a former Seventh-day Adventist and usually limit my posts to threads concerning SDA beliefs. The same thing continually happens on those threads, when confronted with specific, documented information regarding non-Christian doctrines, some Adventists deny, some say ‘so what?’, most avoid directly addressing the issues and bring up other tangents deflecting the conversation.

I know little about Mormon doctrine, so …

Zerinius? Why me? Why the conflicting answers? Why can’t we get a straight admission of yes, these are Mormon doctrines and discussion of them? If they are not, are these sources truly reflecting Mormon teaching? If these sources are not accurately reflecting Mormon teaching, why the discrepancy and where do they come from?

God Bless,
MarysRoses

 

[MelanieAnne]

MaryRoses, speaking only to the subject of Jesus as the brother of Satan, what I have been told by my Mormon friends, and I have many of them, and have discussed the doctrine of their church with them for over 40 years, is that all of us, including Jesus and Lucifer, but also including all of us here on Earth & all that have gone before us, are children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. We started as Spirit Children and when we were born on Earth, we were born into our body, but we existed before as spirits in Heaven.

In this “Pre-Existence” Jesus and Lucifer both offered their own plans for the future salvation of humankind. Lucifer’s plan included the forced obedience of all humanity to the will of God. Jesus’s plan rejected force in favor of free will, or as they more commonly call it “free agency”. Jesus’s plan was selected and Lucifer rebelled, abandoned Heaven, taking 1/3 of the “hosts of heaven” along. Lucifer began working against God and came to be known as Satan.

Mormons refer to Jesus as their “elder brother”. I suppose, in a sense, Lucifer/Satan is likewise an “elder brother”. All are children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (although Heavenly Mother is rarely discussed).

Although He is an elder brother, Jesus is more advanced than the rest of us. It must be remembered that Mormons believe that all of us can advance to the status of a God. In fact I have heard speculation that those who aim to advance to the status of God will need to undergo crucifixion on some other planet of the universe as part of the process of Godhood. (I don’t know if this bit is doctrine or mere speculation.) Jesus, as Savior and Redeemer is acknowledged as a God. The Holy Spirit is also acknowledged as a God.

The Mormons have their own understanding of the Trinity. Although they will occasionally use the word “Trinity” (it’s rare, but it does happen) their understanding of “Trinity” is different from most other Christian faiths. They believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all Gods, but they are 3 separate “personages”, distinct from one another. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone, distinct from one another. Mormons get around the concept of polytheism by affirming that although they are 3 different “personages” they are one in purpose.

It all makes sense to them. It may not make sense to others, but it makes sense to them.

 

[Margarite]

Catholic Answers has done the right thing.

Mormons reject scripture even if they claim they don’t and they also reject The Apostles Creed, The Nicenne Creed, The Athansian Creed and 2000 years of Church History.

They believe a gnostic pagan religion that on a closer inspection does not even resemble Christianity, simple as that.

 

[Gamera]

Hence Mormonism is false.
]

Yes. I agree that Mormonism is false. Why does everyone seem to think that I am pro-Mormonism? I am Catholic! I am not pro-Mormonism. I am just anti-bigotry.

 

[Jerusha]

I think it comes down to hating the sin, but not the sinner. They are deceived, and should not be hated. We battle not against people, our battle is a spiritual battle. They have difficulty understanding that, because their Mormon loyalties are so deeply entrenched in the personalities and identities as people.

Mormonism teaches bigotry. They then wonder why some people are bigoted against them.

 

[ibkc]

I see no bigotry on this thread. No one is proposing that Mormons have their religion banned, their rights removed, or anything of the sort. I would never shun a person simply for being a Mormon. I have had many Mormon friends in my life, I have supported Mormon politicians, and I’m sure I will in the future. I don’t discuss religion with my Mormon friends and acquaintances. It’s simple. But on a debate forum meant for discussion and critique of other faiths, talking about Mormonism’s history and doctrines is appropriate.

Stating one’s opposition to a religion != bigotry towards it followers.

I feel exactly the same way about Islam.

 

[Gamera]

I see no bigotry on this thread. No one is proposing that Mormons have their religion banned, their rights removed, or anything of the sort. I would never shun a person simply for being a Mormon. I have had many Mormon friends in my life, I have supported Mormon politicians, and I’m sure I will in the future. I don’t discuss religion with my Mormon friends and acquaintances. It’s simple. But on a debate forum meant for discussion and critique of other faiths, talking about Mormonism’s history and doctrines is appropriate.

Stating one’s opposition to a religion != bigotry towards it followers.

I feel exactly the same way about Islam.

I agree 100%. Discussing Mormonism’s history and doctrines is totally appropriate. I never said otherwise. I also never said that stating one’s opposition to a religion = bigotry. I never said anything even vaguely like that. All I have ever questioned is the unfair and illogical tactic of airing Joseph Smith’s or anybody else’s personal bad acts.

Saying Mormonism must stand or fall on its doctrine does not equal defending Mormonism.

 

[PaulDupre]

In fact I have heard speculation that those who aim to advance to the status of God will need to undergo crucifixion on some other planet of the universe as part of the process of Godhood. (I don’t know if this bit is doctrine or mere speculation.)

That would fall squarely into the realm of speculation - and one that I’ve never heard (though I thought I had heard them all).

It was widely accepted when I was LDS that Heavenly Father was “the Christ of another planet”, but nobody seems to talk about it any more, so I guess that speculation has fallen out of favor.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

Saying Mormonism must stand or fall on its doctrine does not equal defending Mormonism.

You’re absolutly right. The point that has been difficult to get across to the LDS on this forum is this:

Joseph Smith’s personal failings are immaterial as to whether Mormonism is revealed by God or not. The Mormons make a good point when they say that God often chooses the weak and foolish to accomplish His work.

However, Joseph did not merely fail to live up to the moral standards of his religion. He used his prophetic office to officially alter the moral standards of the religion to permit wife-swapping, adultery and other behaviors that Christianity would consider horribly sinful. And he did this degrading of morality under the guise of divine revelation - saying that it was commanded by God.

The practice of these altered standards has been temporarily suspended by the LDS Church so as not to run afoul of U.S. law (they don’t currently practice polygamy or wife-swapping), but has never been repudiated by any LDS prophet. In fact, they still defend Joseph Smith’s sexual escapades as divinely inspired and expect these practices to continue in the afterlife and during the millenium.

So those are the current moral standards of the LDS Church, believed by them to have been commanded by God. That is doctrine, and that is one of the many areas in which LDS doctrine fails.

Hope that helps,
Paul

 

[hosemonkey]

You’re absolutly right. The point that has been difficult to get across to the LDS on this forum is this:

Joseph Smith’s personal failings are immaterial as to whether Mormonism is revealed by God or not. The Mormons make a good point when they say that God often chooses the weak and foolish to accomplish His work.

However, Joseph did not merely fail to live up to the moral standards of his religion. He used his prophetic office to officially alter the moral standards of the religion to permit wife-swapping, adultery and other behaviors that Christianity would consider horribly sinful. And he did this degrading of morality under the guise of divine revelation - saying that it was commanded by God.

The practice of these altered standards has been temporarily suspended by the LDS Church so as not to run afoul of U.S. law (they don’t currently practice polygamy or wife-swapping), but has never been repudiated by any LDS prophet. In fact, they still defend Joseph Smith’s sexual escapades as divinely inspired and expect these practices to continue in the afterlife and during the millenium.

So those are the current moral standards of the LDS Church, believed by them to have been commanded by God. That is doctrine, and that is one of the many areas in which LDS doctrine fails.

Hope that helps,
Paul

So there is my principal beef with mormonism. It’s theology is non-Christian and it’s founder was a hoser. And the fact that Joseph Smith was an evil man has a direct bearing on what mormons believe. Because Joseph Smith altered the religion that he himself invented to permit himself and his cronies to commit sin in the name of 'Divine Revelation." For shame. Wake up, mormons.

 

[East_Anglican]

This has been my point. And so far, mormonism hasn’t fallen by the wayside.

Nobut it’s people habve fallen by the way side. The cares of this world are what motivated Smith et al, not the Kingdom of Heaven. Just beecause Mormonism is still here doesn’t mean a thing. Heresies come and go all the time and there is nothing new under the sun.

lds church is a ‘revolutionary’ church because of what it has done for christianity.

Something being set up to destroy Christianity is not what I’d call revolutionary. The Kingdom of darkness has been setting things up for the last 2000 years to destroy Christianity. They rage and war against The Church but The Church is still here and always will be. At the end of time Mormonism will be no more but Christ’s Church is eternal. Mormons are not part of Christ’s Church. The lds is not even a church in the biblical sense, it’s a bunch of people believing what they want to believe because it makes them feel good. Jesus did not die on a cross so we can feel good.

Its doctrine is quite exceptional and yet, it has not fallen on barren ground.

Its doctrine is exceptionally false, its doctrine is exceptionally heretical, its doctrine is exceptionally pagan, its doctrine is exceptionally blasphemous, its doctrine is exceptionally gnostic, its doctrine is exceptionally satanic, its doctrine is exceptionally anti-Christ, its doctrine is exceptionally based on the wisdom of Hell.

Mormonism is fallen because it’s ruled by a fallen Anglel called Satan who is not Jesus’ brother.

No dirty laundry or no "book of mormon is a ‘fraud’"speech will discredit the lds church because all have sinned and the book has not been proven a fraud.

No archeological evidence, no written evidence, no evidence by oral tradition. Archeology and stories written or by oral tradition prove it false.

 

[East_Anglican]

OK,

I have been reading this thread for a while, and lost in the swamp of side issues, I find this:

A question (actually four of them) is asked:

No answers are forthcoming… we’ve all read the thread…

finally, someone comes up with a legitimate source, listed on a Mormon website:

I have read the pertinent sections of the posted manual, and some other material in it besides. It definitely supports the idea that Satan is the brother of Jesus and other points. So it does seem reasonable to me that the answer to those questions would be yes.

OK, so here we have it from a mormon source (www.lds.org “gospel library”) and then we get the following conflicting responses:

Zerinius though begs to differ with Why me…

In response to this question:

Zerinius responds:

Thats where this exchange ends so far…

I am a former Seventh-day Adventist and usually limit my posts to threads concerning SDA beliefs. The same thing continually happens on those threads, when confronted with specific, documented information regarding non-Christian doctrines, some Adventists deny, some say ‘so what?’, most avoid directly addressing the issues and bring up other tangents deflecting the conversation.

I know little about Mormon doctrine, so …

Zerinius? Why me? Why the conflicting answers? Why can’t we get a straight admission of yes, these are Mormon doctrines and discussion of them? If they are not, are these sources truly reflecting Mormon teaching? If these sources are not accurately reflecting Mormon teaching, why the discrepancy and where do they come from?

God Bless,
MarysRoses

The Mormons here don’t want to discuss any of their exotic doctrines because they are playing a softly, softly aproach to reel our Christian brethren into their gnostic, pagan heresy.

Dear Mormons,

We know your game!

 

[why_me]

OK,

I have read the pertinent sections of the posted manual, and some other material in it besides. It definitely supports the idea that Satan is the brother of Jesus and other points. So it does seem reasonable to me that the answer to those questions would be yes.

God Bless,
MarysRoses

You can go to this site and read all about it. There are several articles from the mormonaplogetic site about jesus and satan as brothers.

fairlds.org/apol/ai222.html

 

[why_me]

The Mormons here don’t want to discuss any of their exotic doctrines because they are playing a softly, softly aproach to reel our Christian brethren into their gnostic, pagan heresy.

Dear Mormons,

We know your game!

Not true. I have linked websites that provide possible answers to questions. One can go to www.fairlds.org or www.lightplanet.com for information. Also one can go to www.ldsforums.net for discussion with mormons on the issues.

I even posted this link that goes into the details between catholicism and mormonism.

lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/interfaith/Catholic_EOM.htm

 

[why_me]

MaryRoses, speaking only to the subject of Jesus as the brother of Satan, what I have been told by my Mormon friends, and I have many of them, and have discussed the doctrine of their church with them for over 40 years, is that all of us, including Jesus and Lucifer, but also including all of us here on Earth & all that have gone before us, are children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. We started as Spirit Children and when we were born on Earth, we were born into our body, but we existed before as spirits in Heaven.

In this “Pre-Existence” Jesus and Lucifer both offered their own plans for the future salvation of humankind. Lucifer’s plan included the forced obedience of all humanity to the will of God. Jesus’s plan rejected force in favor of free will, or as they more commonly call it “free agency”. Jesus’s plan was selected and Lucifer rebelled, abandoned Heaven, taking 1/3 of the “hosts of heaven” along. Lucifer began working against God and came to be known as Satan.

Mormons refer to Jesus as their “elder brother”. I suppose, in a sense, Lucifer/Satan is likewise an “elder brother”. All are children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (although Heavenly Mother is rarely discussed).

Although He is an elder brother, Jesus is more advanced than the rest of us. It must be remembered that Mormons believe that all of us can advance to the status of a God. In fact I have heard speculation that those who aim to advance to the status of God will need to undergo crucifixion on some other planet of the universe as part of the process of Godhood. (I don’t know if this bit is doctrine or mere speculation.) Jesus, as Savior and Redeemer is acknowledged as a God. The Holy Spirit is also acknowledged as a God.

The Mormons have their own understanding of the Trinity. Although they will occasionally use the word “Trinity” (it’s rare, but it does happen) their understanding of “Trinity” is different from most other Christian faiths. They believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all Gods, but they are 3 separate “personages”, distinct from one another. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone, distinct from one another. Mormons get around the concept of polytheism by affirming that although they are 3 different “personages” they are one in purpose.

It all makes sense to them. It may not make sense to others, but it makes sense to them.

Good post. If you go to my linked sites you can read about it. I posted them in response to another poster.

Who created satan if not god? And why was satan created? How did satan become satan? These are good questions. And it seems that the mormons have answers.

 

[why_me]

Jesus and satan as brothers. From the fairlds wiki:

…God the Father also had many other spirit children, created in His image and that of His Only Begotten. These children include all humans born on the earth. Some of God’s children rebelled against Him, and contested the choice of Jesus as Savior. (See D&C 76:25–27). The leader of these children was Lucifer, or Satan. Those spirit children of God who followed Satan in his rebellion against Christ are sometimes referred to as “demons,” or “devils.” (See Moses 4:1–4, Abraham 3:24–28).

Thus, it is technically true to say that Jesus and Satan are “brothers,” in the sense that both have the same spiritual parent, God the Father.

However, critics do not provide the context for the idea that Christ and Lucifer were brothers. Cain and Abel were also brothers, and yet no Bible reader believes that they are spiritual equals or equally admirable. In a similar way, Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus and Satan are equals. Nothing is as equally evil as Jesus is good nor is Jesus power the opposite of Satan’s (See Moses 4:3). The Book of Mormon also states that the opposite of Christ and God is nothingness (See 2 Nephi 2 10-15), not Satan.

The scriptures clearly teach the superiority of Jesus over the devil and that Michael (or Adam) and Lucifer (Satan) and their followers fought against each other (See Revelation 12:7-8) to uphold the plan of the Father and the Son. Critics also ignore the Biblical references that imply that Satan is one of the “sons of God.” (See Job:16, Job 2:1)

Elder M. Russell Ballard cautioned members of the Church:

We occasionally hear some members refer to Jesus as our Elder Brother, which is a true concept based on our understanding of the premortal life with our Father in Heaven. But like many points of gospel doctrine, that simple truth doesn't go far enough in terms of describing the Savior's role in our present lives and His great position as a member of the Godhead. Thus, some non-LDS Christians are uncomfortable with what they perceive as a secondary role for Christ in our theology. They feel that we view Jesus as a spiritual peer. They believe that we view Christ as an implementor for God, if you will, but that we don't view Him as God to us and to all mankind, which, of course, is counter to biblical testimony about Christ's divinity… 

Now we can understand why some Latter-day Saints have tended to focus on Christ's Sonship as opposed to His Godhood. As members of earthly families, we can relate to Him as a child, as a Son, and as a Brother because we know how that feels. We can personalize that relationship because we ourselves are children, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters. For some it may be more difficult to relate to Him as a God. And so in an attempt to draw closer to Christ and to cultivate warm and personal feelings toward Him, some tend to humanize Him, sometimes at the expense of acknowledging His Divinity. So let us be very clear on this point: it is true that Jesus was our Elder Brother in the premortal life, but we believe that in this life it is crucial that we become "born again" as His sons and daughters in the gospel covenant.[3]

Early Christian Evidence

The early pre-nicene Church father Lactantius wrote:

Since God was possessed of the greatest foresight for planning, and of the greatest skill for carrying out in action, before He commenced this business of the world,--inasmuch as there was in Him, and always is, the fountain of full and most complete goodness,--in order that goodness might spring as a stream from Him, and might flow forth afar, He produced a Spirit like to Himself, who might be endowed with the perfections of God the Father... Then He made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore he was infected with his own envy as with poison, and passed from good to evil; and at his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From which it appears that the source of all evils is envy. For he envied his predecessor, who through his steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This being, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolus: we call him accuser, because he reports to God the faults to which he himself entices us. God, therefore, when He began the fabric of the world, set over the whole work that first and greatest Son, and used Him at the same time as a counselor and artificer, in planning, arranging, and accomplishing, since He is complete both in knowledge, and judgment, and power... [4]

Many things he here taught are not considered “orthodox” by today’s standards. However, Lactantius was definitely orthodox during his lifetime. Amazingly, many things here correspond to LDS doctrine precisely in those areas that are “unorthodox.” For example,

1. “He produced a Spirit like to Himself,” namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the “co-equal,” “eternally begotten,” “same substance” “persona” of the later creeds.
2. “Then he made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain.” God made another spirit who rebelled and who fell from his exalted status. He is the diabolus.
3. Christ is the “first and greatest Son.” Not the “only” son.
4. Lastly, since the diabolus and Christ are both spirit sons of God, they are spirit brothers.
   Conclusion

Jesus, Satan, and all humanity share God the Father as their spiritual sire. However, moral agency led Jesus to obey God the Father perfectly and share fully in the Father’s divine nature and power. The same agency led Satan to renounce God, fight Jesus, and doom himself to eternal damnation. The remainder of God’s children—all of us—have the choice to follow the route chosen by Satan, or the path to which Christ invites us and shows the way.
maximized that potential, and Satan squandered it.