Finding God and Salvation

[Kaninchen]

My focus is Hear oh Israel, the Lord is your God, the lord is one. Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

I suspect you may be familiar with that

Sort of more like:

Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God the Lord alone. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. Take to heart all these instructions with which I charge you this day. Impress them upon your children. Recite them when you stay at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you get up. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them serve as a symbol on your forehead, inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

(We Jews can get somewhat OCD at times.)

What bothers me is the whole business of what might be described as thinking too much about the nature of God - it’s the road to idolatry. As you appreciate our focus is much more on the idea of ‘living ethical monotheism’ - we’re relatively low on belief, high on doing.

 

[tgGodsway]

What is a noahide?

 

[ZenFred]

Sort of more like:

Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God the Lord alone. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. Take to heart all these instructions with which I charge you this day. Impress them upon your children. Recite them when you stay at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you get up. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them serve as a symbol on your forehead, inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

(We Jews can get somewhat OCD at times.)

What bothers me is the whole business of what might be described as thinking too much about the nature of God - it’s the road to idolatry. As you appreciate our focus is much more on the idea of ‘living ethical monotheism’ - we’re relatively low on belief, high on doing.

You quoted the Shema. It’s a wonderful prayer.
I was quoting Mark 12:29-31 where Jesus gives the “greatest commandments”. Jesus was a Jew but he tried to bring a intrepration of Torah grounded in compassion and inclusion. This is a view shared by many Jews as well like Rabbi Akiva and Hillel.
As far as idolatry, you can’t get much better than Maimonides, especially his guide to the perplexed.
But that’s where I love the Quran too. God has no partners and has a simple and clear message.

 

[Kaninchen]

You quoted the Shema. It’s a wonderful prayer.
I was quoting Mark 12:29-31 where Jesus gives the “greatest commandments”. Jesus was a Jew but he tried to bring a intrepration of Torah grounded in compassion and inclusion. This is a view shared by many Jews as well like Rabbi Akiva and Hillel.
As far as idolatry, you can’t get much better than Maimonides, especially his guide to the perplexed.
But that’s where I love the Quran too. God has no partners and has a simple and clear message.

As you’ll appreciate, I’d disagree with your perspective on Jesus having an original view on the Torah.

Years ago (when there were more Jews around) we used to have threads that went on for pages and pages about this sort of thing.

 

[ZenFred]

As you’ll appreciate, I’d disagree with your perspective on Jesus having an original view on the Torah.

Years ago (when there were more Jews around) we used to have threads that went on for pages and pages about this sort of thing.

I actually agree, Hillel was before Jesus. The other prophets sometimes say simmilar things. Rabbi Akiva was shortly after. It’s cool. Ultimately I like the Muslim view that he was a prophet. But I really don’t know. God doesn’t seem offended one way or the other as my opinion in that area changed. So i don’t think theology matters

 

[Kaninchen]

I actually agree, Hillel was before Jesus. The other prophets sometimes say simmilar things. Rabbi Akiva was shortly after. It’s cool. Ultimately I like the Muslim view that he was a prophet. But I really don’t know. God doesn’t seem offended one way or the other as my opinion in that area changed. So i don’t think theology matters

And we’re back to Micah and the Lord’s requirements.

 

[ZenFred]

And we’re back to Micah and the Lord’s requirements.

When I wanted to become more than a noahide and convert to Judaism (probably Reform) my wife freaked out.
So I went back to searching.
Now I think I’ll go back to “Christianity” by following Jesus’ Torah based teachings and by participating in the church community but not following church doctrines.
As long as I’m loving God and neighbor.

 

[PluniaZ]

What on earth do you mean by ‘modern’ Judaism?

Kabbalah only dates to the 12th Century, by which point Neoplatonism had infiltrated all the world’s religions.

 

[ZenFred]

Kabbalah only dates to the 12th Century, by which point Neoplatonism had infiltrated all the world’s religions.

Kabbalah just means Jewish mysticism. Yes Luranic Kabbalah dates to then. Merkabah “Chariot” Kabbalah is earlier and is even seen in Ezekiel.

I believe I originally used the term modern Judaism by which I only meant Rabbinical Judaism. Temple Judaism doesn’t exist anymore.

 

[PluniaZ]

Kabbalah just means Jewish mysticism. Yes Luranic Kabbalah dates to then. Merkabah “Chariot” Kabbalah is earlier and is even seen in Ezekiel.

I believe I originally used the term modern Judaism by which I only meant Rabbinical Judaism. Temple Judaism doesn’t exist anymore.

Interesting, I wasn’t aware of the Merkabah mysticism. Thanks.

In any event, none of these religions compare with Christianity. Our Lord and Savior rose from the dead. No one else claims anything remotely as wonderful as that.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kabbalah only dates to the 12th Century, by which point Neoplatonism had infiltrated all the world’s religions.

What’s it got to do with me? What’s it got to do with ‘salvation’?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

ZenFred;14852383]Hello,

According to Paul, God is found only fully found thru faith in Christ and according to Catholic teaching the church is the best and most complete expression of God’s ministry on earth. Likewise Christianity as a whole and the Catholic Church in particular is the “fullest and surest means of salvation since it is based on the Pascal Mystery of the Son of God.” (Quoting Michael Mayo in a earlier thread). In other words Christianity claims to be the best way to find and be found and be saved by God.

Obviously a religion would usually claim to be the best or else people wouldn’t follow it. Naturally other religions also claim to be the best instead. Christianity, modern Judaism, and Islam all claim their faith is the truest expression of faith in God and the best means of salvation. How can we verify any of this? What criteria would you use to objectively tell as much possible where God could best be found?

I would take the blessed Bishop Fulton Sheen’s criteria here.

If you line up all the founders of each religion and ask them one by one, are you the Christ the Son of the living God? Are you the Savior of the World? or ask each one your own question and by their historical life witness, they will answer your question.

1. Abraham the founder of Judaism. Abraham are you the one who is to come? Are you the savior of the World? Are you, Abraham the Son of the living God? Did God pre-announce your coming Abraham? Abraham’s answer will be NO. My message is to have faith in God.
2. Muhammad founder of Islam. Muhammad are you the one who’s coming is foretold? Are you the Savior of the World? Do you claim to be the Son of the living God? Muhammad’s answer would be NO. My message is to submit to God according to my standards revealed from the Quran. I am not the divine one that is to come.

3, Buddha founder of Buddhaism. Buddha was your coming pre- announced since the beginning of the world? Did all the prophets prophecy about you and your ministry? Are you Buddha a Son of the Divine? Do you Buddha proclaim to be the savior of the world? Buddha answer’s NO. My message is to be enlightened with creation and in creation, I never claimed to be divine.

1. Jesus founder of the Christian faith in the Catholic Church. Jesus do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus say’s "IAM’. Jesus did the prophets prophecy about your coming and your life on earth? Jesus answers; All The prophets give witness and testimony of my coming. Jesus are you saying your coming into the world was pre-announced by God and His prophets? Jesus answers; Amen, I tell you, you will see greater things than these, when the Son of Man is lifted up. Jesus, Do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus answers; “I AM”. Jesus can you perform miracles and raise the dead? Jesus answers; God your Father in heaven gives witness to these miracles and they testify on my behalf. Jesus, are you the savior of the world, the one who is to come? Jesus answers; “I AM”

Line up any founder of any religion, and ask your question. You will find NO founder of any such religion to claim to be the Son of God, raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, give hearing and speech to the deaf and mute, die and resurrect after three days. There are over 400 prophecies from different ages recorded in the bible. Jesus Christ is the only historical figure in all of the world, who fulfills all of them to the letter.

Do you know how difficult for just one or two biblical prophecies to come to pass? Jesus fulfill’s all of them.

Peace be with you

 

[Reuben_J]

I would take the blessed Bishop Fulton Sheen’s criteria here.

If you line up all the founders of each religion and ask them one by one, are you the Christ the Son of the living God? Are you the Savior of the World? or ask each one your own question and by their historical life witness, they will answer your question.

1. Abraham the founder of Judaism. Abraham are you the one who is to come? Are you the savior of the World? Are you, Abraham the Son of the living God? Did God pre-announce your coming Abraham? Abraham’s answer will be NO. My message is to have faith in God.
2. Muhammad founder of Islam. Muhammad are you the one who’s coming is foretold? Are you the Savior of the World? Do you claim to be the Son of the living God? Muhammad’s answer would be NO. My message is to submit to God according to my standards revealed from the Quran. I am not the divine one that is to come.

3, Buddha founder of Buddhaism. Buddha was your coming pre- announced since the beginning of the world? Did all the prophets prophecy about you and your ministry? Are you Buddha a Son of the Divine? Do you Buddha proclaim to be the savior of the world? Buddha answer’s NO. My message is to be enlightened with creation and in creation, I never claimed to be divine.

1. Jesus founder of the Christian faith in the Catholic Church. Jesus do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus say’s "IAM’. Jesus did the prophets prophecy about your coming and your life on earth? Jesus answers; All The prophets give witness and testimony of my coming. Jesus are you saying your coming into the world was pre-announced by God and His prophets? Jesus answers; Amen, I tell you, you will see greater things than these, when the Son of Man is lifted up. Jesus, Do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus answers; “I AM”. Jesus can you perform miracles and raise the dead? Jesus answers; God your Father in heaven gives witness to these miracles and they testify on my behalf. Jesus, are you the savior of the world, the one who is to come? Jesus answers; “I AM”

Line up any founder of any religion, and ask your question. You will find NO founder of any such religion to claim to be the Son of God, raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, give hearing and speech to the deaf and mute, die and resurrect after three days. There are over 400 prophecies from different ages recorded in the bible. Jesus Christ is the only historical figure in all of the world, who fulfills all of them to the letter.

Do you know how difficult for just one or two biblical prophecies to come to pass? Jesus fulfill’s all of them.

Peace be with you

:bowdown2::bowdown2::bowdown2::bowdown2:

 

[fhansen]

In the end there’s just something different about this fellow Jesus. Even beyond the ‘liar, lunatic, or Lord’ thing, It’s just what He said, what He did, the way He did it. Pure truth, not a hint of hypocrisy, more real than anyone else you’ll ever meet. Just another human, but not. quite. A subtle difference, gradually exploding into all the difference in the world the more we know Him. The rest are just like you and I.

 

[ZenFred]

Reuben and fhansen,

Thanks for your posts. I think you did answer the question. Christianity claims Jesus is the savior. The term messiah is a bit tricky since the term could just mean being annointed or it could refer to the messianic expectation of one who will bring about a realization of God’s kingdom on earth. According to the gospels, Jesus claimed to be this savior messiah. The way to tell if that is true is to look at the fruits. The problem with Lewis’ “Liar, Lunatic, Lord” is that it is impossible to judge his character from just a religious text.

I can’t remember if it was this thread or where but I loved the suggestion of finding a church that does adoration of the host. I could spend some time in prayerful discernment in the presence of the sanctified bread (Christ). Perhaps I could do the same with an icon of Jesus, right?

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

I would take the blessed Bishop Fulton Sheen’s criteria here.

If you line up all the founders of each religion and ask them one by one, are you the Christ the Son of the living God? Are you the Savior of the World? or ask each one your own question and by their historical life witness, they will answer your question.

1. Abraham the founder of Judaism. Abraham are you the one who is to come? Are you the savior of the World? Are you, Abraham the Son of the living God? Did God pre-announce your coming Abraham? Abraham’s answer will be NO. My message is to have faith in God.
2. Muhammad founder of Islam. Muhammad are you the one who’s coming is foretold? Are you the Savior of the World? Do you claim to be the Son of the living God? Muhammad’s answer would be NO. My message is to submit to God according to my standards revealed from the Quran. I am not the divine one that is to come.

3, Buddha founder of Buddhaism. Buddha was your coming pre- announced since the beginning of the world? Did all the prophets prophecy about you and your ministry? Are you Buddha a Son of the Divine? Do you Buddha proclaim to be the savior of the world? Buddha answer’s NO. My message is to be enlightened with creation and in creation, I never claimed to be divine.

1. Jesus founder of the Christian faith in the Catholic Church. Jesus do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus say’s "IAM’. Jesus did the prophets prophecy about your coming and your life on earth? Jesus answers; All The prophets give witness and testimony of my coming. Jesus are you saying your coming into the world was pre-announced by God and His prophets? Jesus answers; Amen, I tell you, you will see greater things than these, when the Son of Man is lifted up. Jesus, Do you claim to be the Son of God? Jesus answers; “I AM”. Jesus can you perform miracles and raise the dead? Jesus answers; God your Father in heaven gives witness to these miracles and they testify on my behalf. Jesus, are you the savior of the world, the one who is to come? Jesus answers; “I AM”

Line up any founder of any religion, and ask your question. You will find NO founder of any such religion to claim to be the Son of God, raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, give hearing and speech to the deaf and mute, die and resurrect after three days. There are over 400 prophecies from different ages recorded in the bible. Jesus Christ is the only historical figure in all of the world, who fulfills all of them to the letter.

Do you know how difficult for just one or two biblical prophecies to come to pass? Jesus fulfill’s all of them.

Peace be with you

Jesus also said the Father is great then I. The ‘Father’ refering the God of Abraham, the founder of Judaism I guess. So I assume the God of Abraham is greater then the founder of Christianity.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Judaism claims that the entire nation witnessed the giving of the Torah at Sinai and they say theirs is the only religion to have a revelation to thousands at one time.

Muslims say the Quran itself is a miracle given its unsurpassed beauty amoung the people.

Muslims and Jews give many example of public miracles such as Moses overcoming the sorcerers of Pharo.

Not that what you say didn’t happen but there isn’t objective evidence nor is it a unique claim.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jesus also said the Father is great then I. The ‘Father’ refering the God of Abraham, the founder of Judaism I guess. So I assume the God of Abraham is greater then the founder of Christianity.

When you isolate one scripture from the whole, you begin the path of contradiction and greatly misunderstanding One God who makes known, divine revelation in the procession of Trinity.

True Jesus said the “the Father is greater than the Son”. Jesus also said, “the Father and I are one”, Jesus also said, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”, Jesus also said, “if you have seen me, you have also seen the Father”, Jesus also said, “Before Abraham was, I AM”.

To “assume the God of Abraham is greater than the founder of Christianity” reveals a lack of understanding in the True Trinity. The Father is greater than the Son, because the Father eternally begets the Son in Trinity of divine procession (divine revelation). We Catholics profess that the Son is con-substantial with the Father, ONE GOD in Divine Essence.

Thus to clarify your assumption. The Father is greater than the Son in divine revelation from the divine economy of the Trinity. The Trinity is One God in divine eternal essence, never separated, never confused.

peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

ZenFred;14855268]Reuben and fhansen,

Thanks for your posts. I think you did answer the question. Christianity claims Jesus is the savior. The term messiah is a bit tricky since the term could just mean being annointed

Those biblical Messianic figures are called by God. Their ritual anointing are performed by symbols, for example the pouring of oil upon their heads. These rituals were performed by men. (oil symbolized the anointing of God)

What makes Jesus Christ anointing unique apart from all others?

Jesus anointing was made public by divine revelation; After Jesus came up from the baptism waters, God the Father’s Voice was heard from heaven, “This is my beloved Son, Listen to Him”, followed and confirmed in the witness of the Holy Spirit, which came to rest upon Jesus Christ. This messiah Jesus was not called out by God, Jesus was sent from God, something to ponder here.

Remember, it takes TWO WITNESSES to establish Truth by biblical law and standards.

Jesus anointing is unique to all other’s because Only God can give testimony of who God is, God does not accept testimony by men. When other’s were called to be anointed, Men gave testimony of men,upon being called by God.

All other anointing’s prefigured of what was to come in the reality of divine revelation in Jesus final Messiahship, when there will be no more new divine revelation until Jesus returns.

Here Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets. Who pre-announced the coming of the anti-Christ who is already in the world. Beware of false shepherds.

I can’t remember if it was this thread or where but I loved the suggestion of finding a church that does adoration of the host. I could spend some time in prayerful discernment in the presence of the sanctified bread (Christ). Perhaps I could do the same with an icon of Jesus, right?]

No Jesus is not present in an Icon. An Icon only tells the gospel story of Jesus, when the scriptures come to life in the veneration of the Icon.

This is different from adoration of the Host. When Jesus Christ body, blood, soul and divinity are present before the one giving adoration in God’s Presence.

God’s presence is not in an Icon. When veneration of an Icon is NEVER the same as adoration in the presence of the Host.

There is not such thing as “sanctified bread”, what you present here, is considered sacrilege and heretical in the Catholic Church .

What is bread and wine is no longer after the consecration (When God speaks). What appears to be bread to our senses is not bread but the body of Christ, what appears to be wine to our senses is not wine but the blood of Christ.

To find God and Salvation attained once and for all, is to able to commune with God and eat the body of Christ and drink the blood of Christ.

Peace be with you

 

[ZenFred]

Those biblical Messianic figures are called by God. Their ritual anointing are performed by symbols, for example the pouring of oil upon their heads. These rituals were performed by men. (oil symbolized the anointing of God)

What makes Jesus Christ anointing unique apart from all others?

Jesus anointing was made public by divine revelation; After Jesus came up from the baptism waters, God the Father’s Voice was heard from heaven, “This is my beloved Son, Listen to Him”, followed and confirmed in the witness of the Holy Spirit, which came to rest upon Jesus Christ. This messiah Jesus was not called out by God, Jesus was sent from God, something to ponder here.

Remember, it takes TWO WITNESSES to establish Truth by biblical law and standards.

Jesus anointing is unique to all other’s because Only God can give testimony of who God is, God does not accept testimony by men. When other’s were called to be anointed, Men gave testimony of men,upon being called by God.

All other anointing’s prefigured of what was to come in the reality of divine revelation in Jesus final Messiahship, when there will be no more new divine revelation until Jesus returns.

Here Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets. Who pre-announced the coming of the anti-Christ who is already in the world. Beware of false shepherds.

No Jesus is not present in an Icon. An Icon only tells the gospel story of Jesus, when the scriptures come to life in the veneration of the Icon.

This is different from adoration of the Host. When Jesus Christ body, blood, soul and divinity are present before the one giving adoration in God’s Presence.

God’s presence is not in an Icon. When veneration of an Icon is NEVER the same as adoration in the presence of the Host.

There is not such thing as “sanctified bread”, what you present here, is considered sacrilege and heretical in the Catholic Church .

What is bread and wine is no longer after the consecration (When God speaks). What appears to be bread to our senses is not bread but the body of Christ, what appears to be wine to our senses is not wine but the blood of Christ.

To find God and Salvation attained once and for all, is to able to commune with God and eat the body of Christ and drink the blood of Christ.

Peace be with you

I knew of the Rabbinical rule of two witnesses but never in the context of the baptism of Jesus. That’s cool.
So I’ve been torn back and forth between faiths and struggling how to explain encountering God’s presence across traditions. The latest explaination I came up with is going back to Aquinas’ distinction between natural and special revelation. In hopping religions and in meditation I’ve been exploring natural revelation and natural theology which is accessible to all people both within and without scripture. It is self evident that God is One and He is good and we can seek mystical encounters with Him (or He seeks those moments with us). We also know that we are called to a moral and compassionate life of self denial. We don’t need Jesus to tell us that. He does tell us that, but in that context it’s not original.
That’s where adoration of the Host or some similar spiritual practice is so important. If you are right and Jesus Christ is not just one prophet of many with the same message as Muhammad (for example) then that’s the way I would know. I need to seek the Risen Christ and to test the spirits.
The Eastern Orthodox might disagree with you about icons that’s an intersting question.
But adoration of the Host is probably the best way to test this through prayer.
I’m not looking to see if I feel God’s presence, I already know I will. But rather to pray for an unique presence or unquie message that I don’t feel in a synagogue, mosque or zendo. As a finite human being who honestly seeks the Truth, I should humble myself to God alone and follow whatever He reveals. I’ll talk to the local church.
Sorry about the sanctified bread language. I was taught theology by lutherans. I do believe there is special presence within the elements once consecrated. Though I’m a metaphysical monist (all things have God as their ultimate source of being and reality in both their original cause but also sustaining their current reality). So the metaphysics of the eucarest (or the incarnation itself) gets tricky. But that’s why I want to discover by prayer instead of intellectual debate.
May God’s peace also be with you.