Finding meaning in the cross in St. Paul

[biblicalAdam]

Hi all,

I am wondering if you all can give me some help here. I am having some difficulty finding “meaning” in the crucifixion.

The gospels are pretty easy for me to follow: Jesus does some great stuff and preaches repentance, forgiveness, and love. He is put to death because his message is wrongly interpreted as a threat to both the religious and political spheres. It is sin of others that ultimately leads to his death. Christ’s resurrection, according to the CCC “above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ’s works and teachings.” So, it seems that the resurrection is first and foremost a confirmation by the Father that Jesus’ words and deeds were true. Namely that repentance/forgiveness/love is possibles. (this current of thought is also present in the speeches in the acts of the apostles…)

Ok, so the above makes sense to me and has meaning. But!! I run into problems finding meaning when I read the letters of saint Paul. “Christ Jesus whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood” (Rm 3:25). And in Peter: “we were ransomed with the precious blood of Christ.” And this idea is also prevalent in Hebrews (you get the idea and I will not quote).

My difficulty is that I cannot find meaning in his death (as presented by Paul) without falling into two errors:

[1] God the Father has a type of blood lust that must be fulfilled to hold back his wrath.

[2] We are incorporated into Jesus’ death/resurrection in some type of “magical” way. Reading Paul sometimes seems like hocus pocus. We are magically incorporated into Jess’s death and resurrection.

Also, it seems as through (as presented in St. Paul’s letters) that God operates on a level of love that is foreign to us. Take a dog, for example. If my dog bites me this is a bad act. And the dog (in some sense) knows is wrong. Yet, I do not demand the death of the dog! Nor do I require a human to take the forum of the dog so that I may accept forgiveness of the dog on an “equal” level to my humanity. Instead, I might reprimand the dog, and then re-show the dog how he should act.

And think of a parent and child. If the child wrongs the parent. The parent does not demand the child’s death… etc etc. Instead, we simply forgive out of love…

The most distressing thing here is that I struggle to find a unified presentation of the meaning of Jesus’s cross and resurrection. This is one of the central points of Catholic teaching and my guess is that if I ask most priests, theologians, or whoever to give a 5 minute explanation of how and why Jesus’s cross saves us (as expressed in Paul and Hebrews)… they will begin to stumble (of course they will say that an infinite God requires an infinite sacrifice…but that is not directly a Biblical theology but one that came much much later…but, why can’t God simply forgive out of love?). This is not to criticize the understanding of our Church leaders and writers, but I am simply trying to express my frustration.

Finally, just to make this clear, I am not some anti-catholic basher here. I simply need some help with this. Please someone make some sense out of St. Paul for me…

In Christ,
-Adam

 

[Lancer]

Below are some CCC paragraphs that helped me…hope the are helpful for you. But before you read those…my thoughts for your consideration are: …Justice demands reparation/atonement for wrong doings…so offending the Almighty and Infinite God demands a “heavy” reparation/atonement…“no walk in the park” penance/sacrifice/atonement could satisfy this demand of justice…only a God-man who gave all in love and obedience to the Father and in love for us…to save us.
…Simply have faith in God’s mysterious ways…you may never understand it to your satisfaction…but God is always Love…His purest essence is love…so He is a God of a holiness and a goodness which are beyond what we can reason or imagine…so not to worry…just enjoy the race…in gratitude for what He has revealed and we can individually or collectively understand…and in gratitude for the faith and hope in Him for all those mysteries that we can’t grasp or understand.
Pax Christi

Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/614.htm');

614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices.441 First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.442

Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/615.htm');

615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”.444** Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father**.445

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/616.htm');

616 It is love "to the end"446 that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.447 Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/617.htm');

617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ’s sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation"449 and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."450 And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."451
Our participation in Christ’s sacrifice
http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/618.htm');

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus’ Resurrection, first and foremost, is Jesus conquering Satan and Death. The claim that it is “proof of Christ’s message”, although accurate, is a wholly inadequate explanation for the Resurrection.

 

[Nita]

…And think of a parent and child. If the child wrongs the parent. The parent does not demand the child’s death… etc etc. Instead, we simply forgive out of love…

You can’t use the above as an analogy, primarily because when the child wrongs his parent it does not result in major permanent changes to the child’s human nature – detrimental changes in his body that will henceforth be passed on to his children; and changes that lessen the capabilities and strength of soul/spirit. And all of these changes of such a nature that it is impossible for the child to ever correct or reverse them.

I can sort of give you an analogy, but it will involve only the physical part of our nature. (Haven’t been able to come up with one for the soul. )

1. Let us say that there is a deadly contagious disease in the house next door. Loving your child, you warn him that he cannot go there for awhile because of that disease. You tell him that it’s very contagious; that he would catch the disease even if he just touches some of the articles in their home. You let him know that the disease is 100% fatal. You let him know how much you love him and that’s why you are forbidding him to go next door.
2. Your son goes anyway.
   (He thinks you’re just exaggerating – doesn’t trust your word to be truth. He doubts your love since you refuse him something he wants to do.)
3. Son gets the disease, and the process of death starts for him.
4. You’re a super duper medical biologist. You go to work immediately and discover you can produce a vaccination to save your son – but to obtain it, you must give yourself the disease, and wait to the point where death is certain before your blood will have the necessary antitoxins to make an effective vaccination that will save your son.
   (Your son now the only victim still living.)
5. You choose to die to save your son. You take on the very disease that resulted from his disobedience to you and turn it into the instrument that will save him!

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

CCC #1009 Death is transformed by Christ. …The obedience of Jesus has transformed the curse of death into a blessing.

 

[Nita]

…The most distressing thing here is that I struggle to find a unified presentation of the meaning of Jesus’s cross and resurrection. This is one of the central points of Catholic teaching and my guess is that if I ask most priests, theologians, or whoever to give a 5 minute explanation of how and why Jesus’s cross saves us (as expressed in Paul and Hebrews)… they will begin to stumble (of course they will say that an infinite God requires an infinite sacrifice…but that is not directly a Biblical theology but one that came much much later…but, why can’t God simply forgive out of love?). This is not to criticize the understanding of our Church leaders and writers, but I am simply trying to express my frustration.

Finally, just to make this clear, I am not some anti-catholic basher here. I simply need some help with this. Please someone make some sense out of St. Paul for me…

In Christ,
-Adam

There are probably an infinite number of ways God could have chosen to save us. The main point is that He did care enough about us to save us. So, the thing to spend time pondering is “why did He choose this particular way”.

**Examine the sin **-- especially as it demonstrates Adam and Eve’s attitude toward God. What error was there on their part? What could God do to prove to them their thoughts/attitude about Him is wrong?

Whenever it starts to trouble you, get out your Bible and read again the account of the fall in Genesis. Search again for correlations between the fall and how God chose to redeem us. For me, it was/is an ongoing revelation (Christ’s death was a stumbling block for me years ago). And don’t forget, there will always be a mystery about it - a mystery of Love.

Philippians 2:5b-8 …Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Gen 3:5 …when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, …

 

[biblicalAdam]

NotWorthy said: Jesus’ Resurrection, first and foremost, is Jesus conquering Satan and Death. The claim that it is “proof of Christ’s message”, although accurate, is a wholly inadequate explanation for the Resurrection.

I never said it was a whole explanation, but the CCC 651 does say the following: “the Resurrection above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ’s works and teachings. All truths, even those most inaccessible to human reason, find their justification if Christ by his Resurrection has given the definitive proof of his divine authority, which he had promised.”

Lancer said: Justice demands reparation/atonement for wrong doings…so offending the Almighty and Infinite God demands a “heavy” reparation/atonement…“no walk in the park” penance/sacrifice/atonement could satisfy this demand of justice…only a God-man who gave all in love and obedience to the Father and in love for us…to save us

While God demands reparation, why is that reparation bloody atonement. I struggle to find meaning in this. For me, the healing and and love of Christ seems to more naturally fit into an idea of “reparation” for the sinful acts of man than a bloody death. (of course, his healing and love is related to the cross, and I simply saying that those actions of Christ seem more directly relevant for reparation than a bloody death).

Lancer… thanks for all those quotes from the CCC, but I cannot find meaning in them, they seem to be simply replacing religious symbolic language with other religious lanague… though I have not given up trying to understand

The major relevant quote of the CCC (651) that makes sense to me is the one I already quoted:

the Resurrection above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ’s works and teachings. All truths, even those most inaccessible to human reason, find their justification if Christ by his Resurrection has given the definitive proof of his divine authority, which he had promised.

Nita wrote… There are probably an infinite number of ways God could have chosen to save us. The main point is that He did care enough about us to save us. So, the thing to spend time pondering is "why did He choose this particular way

I think there is much truth in Nita’s above statement. There is a pedagogy in the cross.

So, just to be a bit more clear. The crucifixion of Christ is not that troubling for me. It makes sense to me as presented in the Gospels and in Acts. It is, however, troubling as presented in Paul, when he uses language like: just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God (eph 5:2).

On a side note, I have studied much on this topic. I took a Christology course at Stuebneville. Great course that focused primarily on the Christological heresies (but the course was a bit too apologetic). I also took a course in Christology at a Catholic seminary. Again, it focused primarily on the historical development of the councils Christological statements. When the course entered into a soteriology, it focused primarily on Christ’s solidarity with man (through incarnation, life and death). But the course never touched upon how and why the cross is really a “sacrifice” to God

Then it hit me (a few years ago). We talk all the time about how Christ’s action is a sacrifice to God, but I never heard a good explanation as to why and how. I am not looking for a rational explanation, I am simply searching for “meaning.”

So, I have ignored the topic for a few years, and have continued along my Catholic path, but it has recently popped up again. Yet, I continue to love God and his Church… and the opportunity to practice the virtue of patience.

In Christ,

-Adam

 

[NHInsider]

Adam-

Since you enjoy the study and intellectual pursuit in these theological questions, I would suggest that the next place you focus might be the sacrificial theology of ancient Judaism (and also to look into the religious practices of some other ancient civilizations).

At some very fundamental level, it appears, human beings understand that “life” is the ultimate gift - a gift that we receive from the divinity. As far as I know, every ancient civilization practiced some form of human sacrifice - a testimony to that subconscious knowledge that the only thing human beings could offer to the divinity was life itself. Judaism begins with showing Abraham that the Lord - the true Divinity, while entitled to demanding our lives, would provide substitution - the ram in the thicket, the sacrifices for the redemption of the firstborn, etc. And ultimately, every one of the sacrifices of the Old Covenant pointed to the One perfect sacrifice.

Another thing I would recommend is a little book by Thomas Howard called Hallowed be this House. Although it is not the main theme of the book, there is a chapter (probably the one on the kitchen or the dining room) in which he explores the way that the truth of sacrifice is integrally woven into our very existence - because in order for us to eat, something has to die: “I give up my life so you may live,” over and over throughout all of history, silently pointing to the Cross.

 

[Nita]

Sometimes the toughest part of responding is understanding for sure just what the question is!
The paragraphs below are the ones I’m now trying to focus on. So, in an attempt to narrow in on a specfic starting point, hope you don’t mind if I ask a couple questions.

…Ok, so the above makes sense to me and has meaning. But!! I run into problems finding meaning when I read the letters of saint Paul. “Christ Jesus whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood” (Rm 3:25). And in Peter: “we were ransomed with the precious blood of Christ.” And this idea is also prevalent in Hebrews (you get the idea and I will not quote).

My difficulty is that I cannot find meaning in his death (as presented by Paul) without falling into two errors:

[1] God the Father has a type of blood lust that must be fulfilled to hold back his wrath.

[2] We are incorporated into Jesus’ death/resurrection in some type of “magical” way. Reading Paul sometimes seems like hocus pocus. We are magically incorporated into Jess’s death and resurrection.

Also, it seems as through (as presented in St. Paul’s letters) that God operates on a level of love that is foreign to us. Take a dog, for example. If my dog bites me this is a bad act. And the dog (in some sense) knows is wrong. Yet, I do not demand the death of the dog! Nor do I require a human to take the forum of the dog so that I may accept forgiveness of the dog on an “equal” level to my humanity. Instead, I might reprimand the dog, and then re-show the dog how he should act.

And think of a parent and child. If the child wrongs the parent. The parent does not demand the child’s death… etc etc. Instead, we simply forgive out of love…

The most distressing thing here is that I struggle to find a unified presentation of the meaning of Jesus’s cross and resurrection. This is one of the central points of Catholic teaching and my guess is that if I ask most priests, theologians, or whoever to give a 5 minute explanation of how and why Jesus’s cross saves us (as expressed in Paul and Hebrews)… they will begin to stumble (of course they will say that an infinite God requires an infinite sacrifice…but that is not directly a Biblical theology but one that came much much later…but, why can’t God simply forgive out of love?). …

While God demands reparation, why is that reparation bloody atonement. I struggle to find meaning in this. For me, the healing and and love of Christ seems to more naturally fit into an idea of “reparation” for the sinful acts of man than a bloody death. (of course, his healing and love is related to the cross, and I simply saying that those actions of Christ seem more directly relevant for reparation than a bloody death).

So, just to be a bit more clear. The crucifixion of Christ is not that troubling for me. It makes sense to me as presented in the Gospels and in Acts. It is, however, troubling as presented in Paul, when he uses language like: just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God (eph 5:2).

1. Would you say that the bolded, underlined sentence is your main question (or captures the essence of what you find troubling)?
2. If so, then the concept of “reparation” becomes a major issue.
   So, can I ask you then about your understanding of “reparation” is (a general meaning of “reparation”) - what it is, if it should be made (do you consider reparation a requirement in certain circumstances; if so when), why it should be made, anything else you might think of in regards to reparation.

 

[Nita]

…he explores the way that the truth of sacrifice is integrally woven into our very existence - because in order for us to eat, something has to die: “I give up my life so you may live,” over and over throughout all of history, silently pointing to the Cross.

My guess is that Adam may already know that; I think his question is more fundamental – like “Why is it that way?” (that is, why was death necessary on Jesus’ part to secure life for us)

 

[biblicalAdam]

Sometimes the toughest part of responding is understanding for sure just what the question is!

Ha ha ha. Yes, sorry if I rant sometime, and maybe I do not have a clear and distinct question… but I think you pretty much nailed my question down when you extracted this sentence from my post:

While God demands reparation, why is that reparation bloody atonement.

Regarding reparation. I included it in my above statement, but I am not quite sure if I innately think that God needs reparation. Yet, it is part of the CCC that Christ’s act provided reparation : It is love “to the end” that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. (CC616). So, lets go with the concept of reparation for a while (though perhaps my question is possible with out this idea).

To me, reparation implies making something right out of what was wronged, fixing something, or making up for something.

[A] We sin by acting against God: we curse, lie, objectify, lust, etc, etc. So, if God were to take on human nature to provide reparation, it seems as though Jesus should live a life that is nothing but sinless good acts. On behalf of humanity, Jesus offers to the Father nothing but acts of love that (in a certain sense) cancel out all the sinful acts of man. Since Jesus is an infinite divine person, such acts are accepted in an infinite manner. (this is the idea of reparation that makes sense to me).

Now, think the above statement is true. All of Jesus’s acts are salvific.

** Yet, within Christian tradition (and Paul and Hebrews) there is a certain emphasis on the bloody death as the primary and high point of salvific action. In such an understanding, it is not primarily Jesus’s sinless/good acts that received by the Father, but instead it is the “penalty” of sin that is received by the Father (namely death).

But this begs the question, why does the Father think such a death is an appropriate thing to be received? ****** this is my question ******

Now for a bit of a rant

[1] We can talk all day about how Christ fulfills the OT sacrifices… but that just begs the question as to why the OT scarifies were ever meaningful in the first place.

[2] Then we can say that there is an innate aspect of primitive society that sees bloody sacrifice as necessary. But then we must realize that we are no longer a privative society. And I have no inclination to slaughter a dove or goat. It is simply not part of how we think, and does not match our experience. So, while it “might” have been part of the culture of our ancestors, it is not innate. (frankly I think it is a good thing that we do not have the desire to kill in our worship)

[3] Here is the best I can do for finding meaning in the crucifixion/resurrection:

Christ preached repentance, forgiveness, and love. And thus he was put do death because of his gospel (which was wrongly interpreted of as a threat). He could have chosen to prevent his death, but there was something pedagogical about it: it demonstrates that God is with us at all moments, even death. Thus, even though he could have prevented his own death… he went through with it (and in this sense it can be considered a sacrifice). His resurrection from the dead demonstrates that Christ’s message of repentance/forgiveness/love is true and life giving. The resurrection shows that God is with us even in our death. Death is not God’s final answer to our sin — the final answer to our sin is the free gift of life through repentance/forgiveness/love (Christ’s central message)

In a final aspect of this post, I would like to thank the responders who are participating. No one has jumped on me! Perhaps that is a sign of the end times J/K. I do appreciate your comments and I am reflecting on all of them… keep them coming!

-Adam**

 

[Nita]

In a final aspect of this post, I would like to thank the responders who are participating. No one has jumped on me! Perhaps that is a sign of the end times J/K. I do appreciate your comments and I am reflecting on all of them… keep them coming!

-Adam

No way I could jump on you!! I went thru the same thing to the point of losing my faith in Jesus. Won’t go into all that except to say that God gave me back my faith - truly a gift; conversion type experience.
BUT - it was a long time before I came to an understanding of the sacrificial aspect. One of the primary reasons for it taking so long was because I refused, I mean absolutely refused, to think about it – out of fear I would lose my faith again. Every year during Holy Week, when it was time for the Passion to be read, I’d say “Jesus, I’m never letting go of Your hand again. If it’s important for me to understand why you had to undergo the Crucifixion, You’ll just have to show me.” And immediately after telling Our Lord that, I’d block out the lector/Passion reading, and start to think about other things relating to Jesus!!!

Have to leave and don’t have the time now, but will be back later to give thoughts that relate to your latest post.

 

[NHInsider]

Now for a bit of a rant

[1] We can talk all day about how Christ fulfills the OT sacrifices… but that just begs the question as to why the OT scarifies were ever meaningful in the first place.

[2] Then we can say that there is an innate aspect of primitive society that sees bloody sacrifice as necessary. But then we must realize that we are no longer a privative society. And I have no inclination to slaughter a dove or goat. It is simply not part of how we think, and does not match our experience. So, while it “might” have been part of the culture of our ancestors, it is not innate. (frankly I think it is a good thing that we do not have the desire to kill in our worship)

Not to argue, because that would be pointless - but I meant to suggest not simply that there was something inate in primitive society that sees blood sacrifice as necessary, but to suggest that this is in fact not just primitive but also instinctively true. That life is in fact the only thing we have to offer to the Creator. And in our modernity we have not gotten beyond that but have forgotten it. . . .

And not incidentally, when we accept the substitution of Jesus’ death for our own, we give Him our lives. (There’s Paul again - “I no longer live but Christ lives in me.”)

 

[Nita]

If you don’t mind reading Augustine and Aquinas, they addressed some of these topics.

Augustine : “On the Holy Trinity” Book 13. Scroll down and start at Chapter 10. newadvent.org/fathers/130113.htm

Aquinas; Summa Theologica Part III, Question 46 (Articles 1 thru 4)
newadvent.org/summa/4046.htm

Also might want to check some subequent Questions (48-50) in Part III of the Summa. The Article titles seem like they might pertain. Summa homepage for Part III:
newadvent.org/summa/4.htm

I have not taken the time to read all of the above, but hopefully there will be something there to act as a catalyst to start the process of understanding.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

A seminarian and I were discussing the crucifix last night. We both agreed that a naked cross means something, but a crucifix is far more profound. Some saint once said that everything he knew he learned by looking at a crucifix. And then we hit upon it. The crucifix tells us exactly what love is. Every real act of love is to some degree an imitation of what you see when you look at a crucifix. This is why when your average rock singer screams about love, he probably doesn’t know what he is talking about. John Lennon wrote love songs, but in his most famous song (“Imagine”) he suggests that the world would be better off without religion. What did he see when he looked at a crucifix?

 

[John_Pascendi]

First Jesus WAS a revolutionary…against any dictatorship of the mind ,body and soul. When he held up that coin and declared to obey the state when it is called for in civic matters but to also obey GOD in all moral matters pertaining to God…that was His deathknell! The cross at the time was for '‘traitors’ to the state. This happens today in communist china to believers in Catholicism. There were other ways to kill.throwing stones,this is practiced in muslim countries but a stone would hardly be a good symbol. Jesus was one tough hombre. He went against the tide of prejudice by treating non-Jews as equals and also women…remember women were completly down-trodden in these types of cultures. Jesus was hardly a hippy type hollyweird portrays.if He was,I doubt very much when He approached a sick person and said ‘arise your are cured’ the person would have shaken his head and said go heal thyself first etc!!!The cross is a perfect symbol for Christianity but in RCC it also has Jesus on it which makes sense even more.the protestants have just the execution apparatus which is nonsense,if Jesus were hanged would they have a noose…no the crucifix is correct and needed…amen and amen…Pas

 

[remjsmom76]

Im not sure you will find a definitive answer to what the meaning of the cross is in the bible. Its actually what it signifies. The way I explain it to people who say to me “Why do you wear a cross if Jesus was risen?” is because the cross signifies all that Jesus did for me. To me it signifies the sufferings that he went through will always be greater than the sufferings I will go through. So it gives me hope, that If he can bear his cross till his death, so can I and that he is there helping me carry my cross in this world. I know Jesus rose from the dead, but I feel that when people forget the cross they forget the sufferings and only concentrate on only the GOOD that happened to Jesus. We always need to remember what he went through for us…and therefor that is what I beleive is the meaning of the cross.

Remember during the times of Jesus even before he was put to death and before his birth…the cross was a comon form of execution for the Romans…even after Jesus’ death the cross was still used to execute.

 

[sonettegarbin]

But this begs the question, why does the Father think such a death is an appropriate thing to be received? ****** this is my question ******

[3] Here is the best I can do for finding meaning in the crucifixion/resurrection:

Christ preached repentance, forgiveness, and love. And thus he was put do death because of his gospel (which was wrongly interpreted of as a threat).

-Adam

Christ Jesus was not put to death because of His gospel.

The transgressions of the whole world, - past, - BC, present - AD - future…, demand the utmost and most severest pain, humility and punishment a human body and soul can stand. Therefore Christ took it upon Himself to be punished on the cross representing us for the healing of the Nations - physically and spiritually.

By His stripes are we healed. By His body and blood are we restored in the Eucharist. I personally believe that at Christs’ resurrection Satan was finally overcome and death lost it’s sting because;-

53 This body that decays must be changed into a body that cannot decay. This mortal body must be changed into a body that will live forever. 54 When this body that decays is changed into a body that cannot decay, and this mortal body is changed into a body that will live forever, then the teaching of Scripture will come true:

“Death is turned into victory!
55 Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

56 Sin gives death its sting, and God’s standards give sin its power. 57 Thank God that he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:53-57 (GW)

Although Jesus Christ is the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity, He had to die in the flesh (man seed of Eve) so that all who believe in Him will be raised on the last day in the flesh when our mortal bodies changes into bodies that cannot decay.

It was necessary that the Son of Man also called the Lamb of God who was found to be worthy to open the seals in the Apocalypse to descend to the dead where He preached to the faithfully departed under the old covenant. Because He was without sin, death could not hold Him there. He rose from the dead on the third day victorious for all of us because He did it for US! As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be.

The Lamb Takes the Scroll That Has Seven Seals

1 I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne. It had writing both on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals. 2 I saw a powerful angel calling out in a loud voice, “Who deserves to open the scroll and break the seals on it?” 3 No one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth could open the scroll or look inside it. 4 I cried bitterly because no one was found who deserved to open the scroll or look inside it.

5 Then one of the leaders said to me, “Stop crying! The Lion from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has won the victory. He can open the scroll and the seven seals on it.”
Rev 5:1-5 (GW)

“The Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.” Daniel 9:26

It is not enough, however, to admire the spectacle of the innocent bleeding for the guilty, we must make sure of our interest therein. The special object of the Messiah’s death was the salvation of His church; have we a part and a lot among those for whom He gave His life a ransom? Did the Lord Jesus stand as our representative? Are we healed by His stripes? It will be a terrible thing indeed if we should come short of a portion in His sacrifice; it were better for us that we had never been born. Solemn as the question is, it is a joyful circumstance that it is one which may be answered clearly and without mistake. To all who believe on Him the Lord Jesus is a present Saviour, and upon them all the blood of reconciliation has been sprinkled. Let all who trust in the merit of Messiah’s death be joyful at every remembrance of Him, and let their holy gratitude lead them to the fullest consecration to His cause.

 

[Cindy_Lynn]

To answer your questions:
Why does God feel death is an appropriate thing to be received?
How could our God of Love demand Jesu’ Bloody death as an atonement for sin?

I believe the answers to these questions are a series of progressive revelations found throughout scripture from Genesis to Paul to Revelations. A “Big Picture” of God’s Holiness and of human sin is needed.

These 3 truths have helped me answer the questions above.
TRUTH#1: The life of a creature is in the blood. (Lev17:11) Without blood, there is no life. Creator God is the source of all life (Genesis), and thus the rightful “owner” of all creatures (and their blood).

TRUTH#2: God is Holy and nothing sinful (unholy) can stand in His “Pure Fire of Love and Compassion” Presence without burning up.

TRUTH#3: God is Love and will stoop to great depths to get His wayward children to realize this. Because He is Love and the source of all Love, He desires to eternally lavish His abundant Love upon all that He has made. To protect and save that which is His.

Based on these, the first time God uses sacrificial blood to PROTECT and SAVE His children is found right at the beginning of the Bible in the Garden of Eden.

Problem#1 and the Sacrificial BLOOD God provides= Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden are given the gift of life (blood) and the gift of freewill. They could choose to obey God out of love, or disobey Him out of “self-love”. The ugliness of their eventual disobedience (sin) is now hard for them to look at so they hide. Their sin is much harder for God to look upon, knowing that now, living before His Holy Face… they will soon be ashes. So… out of Love…God would send them far from the Realm of His Presence to protect them (LOVE). But before sending them, God killed two animals (BLOOD) and made skins to cover their shame (COMPASSION). When God saw the blood of the animals in Eden, He would forever remember how much He loved Adam and Eve. Blood would then become a symbol of Love and Forgiveness to God: a reminder of the original sin and His Holy Desire to save them. The mere scent producing a Loving Memory of the unbroken fellowship He had with man and woman in the garden, also reminded God of His great sorrow when He separated from them for their protection. Adam and Eve respond to the Blood of God’s Compassion and Protection by trying hard to follow Him, even so far from Eden.

So, I believe the Bible continues on to read as God’s Revelation of His Great Love for His humans. Over and over, He uses BLOOD to capture their attention. The humans know it is sacred, it is life, and it is of great monetary value on earth when it comes to their livestock. Some examples of where God captures the attention of His people this way, and they respond to His call to return to Him are:

The Ram (BLOOD) He lovingly provided at the sacrifice of Isaac, the initiation of God’s “chosen people” into the God’s Old BLOOD Covenant with Abraham, the Passover BLOOD of the lamb that protected the Israelites in Egypt, the sacrificial BLOOD systems set up by God in Leviticus to draw His people back from pagan worship in the hills.

Still they continued in the “original sin curse” and I am sure that God got tired of the bloody reminders year after year. Each time the Blood inflamed the memory of His deep Love for His people and His Desire to shower them with Love. So God initiated the PERFECT “once and for all” BLOOD COVENANT that would end all sacrifices and do for mankind what they couldn’t do for themselves by free will alone. A Divine Sacrifice… human blood+Divine Will… Son of God+Son of Man to offer the BLOOD.

SO WHY BLOOD?
God uses the most valuable possession a creature has as our “Wake Up” call…“Attention My Beloved”… they are sure to hear this time if I send MY Son…

1. to lead us to Awe-struck Wonder, Gratitude, and Humble Worship… to what it means to be in right fellowship with God as He originally intended for us in Eden… the created bowed before the Creator, no longer insisting on “living life their own way”, and realizing that their BLOOD is from Him and protected by Him.
2. to help us realize the depths we must go as followers of Jesus as we live out lives of sacrificial love and service… willingness to shed our BLOOD for the sake of others.

3)to help us realize the depth God is willing to go to save us… “He spared not (the LOVE Gift of) His Son … so whoever believes in Him can be saved” and restored to right fellowship with God.

1. to show us by the example of Jesus, how “extreme” our obedience to God’s Will should be… Jesus gave (a human’s most precious possession) His BLOOD. We were redeemed with BLOOD of Greatest Value… God’s OWN!

5)to accept the BLOOD of Jesus in Eucharist is to let God help us understand that we need not fear death. For those in Christ Jesus, it is a return home to where we were meant to be… in unbroken fellowship with God.

Dear friend, let us then live out each precious heartbeat of our own BLOOD, helping others know how much our Holy God desires for us to know Him and have eternal fellowship with Him through the Precious BLOOD of JESUS.

 

[geekborj]

My difficulty is that I cannot find meaning in his death (as presented by Paul) without falling into two errors:

[1] God the Father has a type of blood lust that must be fulfilled to hold back his wrath.

The main problem you encounter is forgetting the OT pattern. God, in his infinite love, went down to the “culture” of Man as to making relationship. That is he chose the greatest possible relationship between Man and his Creator – via a covenant. This is not just a covenant but rather a Family Covenant. In fact, St. John is very much aware of this high degree of covenant even speaking about the “marriage” of the Church and Christ. This makes the relationship even DEEPER than the PERSONAL level.

Now, as God is willing to take it within the human terms, he established a norm of celebrating, remembering (or living again) and proclaiming the covenants that He makes with Man. If you would recall how God initiated his covenant with Abraham (Holy Spirit walking through the immolated animals), Moses and Israel (Passover sacrifice and the Passover meal; later via sprinkling of blood) and the new Israel with Jesus as the Son of Man (Lamb of God and the Passover meal called “Eucharistic meal” or Communion).

One would be easy to see that it is not God who is bloodlust but the human psyche that needs the physical confirmation for the reality of the covenant (spiritual and physical realities). Hence the blood and body offered MUST be BOTH physically and spiritually real.

Indeed, there will be more difficulty in this sense if the Transsubstantiation is not accepted.

[2] We are incorporated into Jesus’ death/resurrection in some type of “magical” way. Reading Paul sometimes seems like hocus pocus. We are magically incorporated into Jess’s death and resurrection.

Again this is not in “magical” way because Jesus’ death and resurrection is BOTH a sign and a reality of what is about to come. As one can see, there is a deeper mystery involved here because Jesus’ death and resurrection is perpetuated in the Mass – as if the participants (the Faithful) travels through space and time to that moment that the Christ was made the Lamb of God. And truly, He is still.

Participating in the Catholic Mass ('til Communion) is being truly (physically and spiritually) incorporated to that fact of what happened to the Lamb of God.

This makes the other readings in the Revelation meaningful. E.g. “the one who was slain but is alive.”

Also, it seems as through (as presented in St. Paul’s letters) that God operates on a level of love that is foreign to us. Take a dog, for example. If my dog bites me this is a bad act. And the dog (in some sense) knows is wrong. Yet, I do not demand the death of the dog! Nor do I require a human to take the forum of the dog so that I may accept forgiveness of the dog on an “equal” level to my humanity. Instead, I might reprimand the dog, and then re-show the dog how he should act.

And think of a parent and child. If the child wrongs the parent. The parent does not demand the child’s death… etc etc. Instead, we simply forgive out of love…

The most distressing thing here is that I struggle to find a unified presentation of the meaning of Jesus’s cross and resurrection. This is one of the central points of Catholic teaching and my guess is that if I ask most priests, theologians, or whoever to give a 5 minute explanation of how and why Jesus’s cross saves us (as expressed in Paul and Hebrews)… they will begin to stumble (of course they will say that an infinite God requires an infinite sacrifice…but that is not directly a Biblical theology but one that came much much later…but, why can’t God simply forgive out of love?). This is not to criticize the understanding of our Church leaders and writers, but I am simply trying to express my frustration.

You have a clear case here. However, it must never be forgotten that while God is infinite Love, GOD IS ALSO THE INFINITE JUSTICE. In other words, God has to impose the punishment. But like a parent who imposes a punishment that his child will not be allowed to have his dinner with the whole family, God is like the same parent who brings the child’s dinner in his room and comforts the child throughout the ordeal of being in the room until bedtime.

Finally, just to make this clear, I am not some anti-catholic basher here. I simply need some help with this. Please someone make some sense out of St. Paul for me…

In Christ,
-Adam

There is a good website by Scott Hahn on “Covenant Love: Introducing the Biblical Worldview” based on his book A Father Who Keeps His Promises. I loved reading it!

God bless on your honest search for the truth.

 

[sonettegarbin]

Thank you Cindy Lynn and geekborj