Finding Wife's ex-hubby's baptismal certificate?

[flameburns623]

Trying to regularize my present marriage. My wife has never been baptised (raised in a Baptist home where they do not baptise infants; she was ‘blessed’ when an infant, a common practice among Evangelicals, but never baptised. We have a statement from the church she was raised in to this effect).

We could therefore pursue a Petrine dissolution without problems and we have put together the case based on that approach. Petrine dissolutions can take months or years, and there is some reason to expect that my wife’s family would not cooperate–my wife’s stepfather is a Baptist minister of the most fundamental kind. We’re prepared for whatever happens but this is not the best direction to take this annulment if we can avoid it.

HOWEVER it emerges that my wife’s first husband was baptised in the Catholic Church. His mom in fact had to regularize her marriage to his biological dad in order to marry the dad. If we can prove the ex-husband was baptised Catholic, the process is much simpler and gets handled at the Diocesan level with relative speed. I’m told a ‘Dissolution for non-canonical form’ could be completed in as little as a month, meaning the whole process could be done by Christmas.

Problem is there is much hostility between the ex-husband, ex-mother-in-law and my wife. On top of which, the mother has divorced the biological father and the whole family have become anti-Catholics. We’ve been told by the mother that neither she nor her son (my wife’s ex-husband) will cooperate. We’ve been told that the son and the whole family (several sons that I know of) were baptised in one specific local Catholic parish but that church has no record of the baptism.

The biological father (still a nominal Catholic), would be willing to cooperate to his best ability but he was away in the military when his sons were born. He believes that all of his sons were baptised Catholic, and he believes it was in the specific parish already named to me by the mother–but since he was out of the country, he can’t provide proof of this nor serve as a witness to the son’s baptism.

There are several parishes in the area, and several defunct parishes whose records have been moved to one of the active parishes but so far I am striking out.

I’m going to do some legwork and try to find a newspaper announcement of the ex-husband’s birth–if I’m lucky, I might even find an announcement of the baptism, which sometimes happened in the 1960’s and earlier. I may discover that the family lived in some other parish boundaries at the time.

OR the marriage tribunal may find records from the regularization of the parents’ marriage that could be a help.

Other than this, I dunno where to go. Any advice?

 

[SMHW]

My only suggestion is to see if any other sacraments were administered in that parish (for instance First Communion, probably when the Ex was in second grade) in hopes that some notation of of the baptism would have been made.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

OK, this is what I would do:

First have your wife write (not call) all the parishes still in existence, explaining the circumstances, TODAY. Mail the letters TODAY. She should know her ex’s birthdate, which would also be included on the baptismal record, along with the name of his biological father. If she gets no response in the next ten business days (sometime around December 3rd, 2008), then contact the chancellor’s office of the diocese in question. They should be able to tell you where the records are for the closed parishes.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .

We could therefore pursue a Petrine dissolution without problems and we have put together the case based on that approach. Petrine dissolutions can take months or years, and there is some reason to expect that my wife’s family would not cooperate–my wife’s stepfather is a Baptist minister of the most fundamental kind. We’re prepared for whatever happens but this is not the best direction to take this annulment if we can avoid it.
. . .

A few years back, when I was running RCIA, we were told that Petrine would take three months after all paperwork was submitted. The paperwork did have to be in perfect order - all i’s dotted and all t’s crossed. In practice it took more like six months, but was relatively swift. Because of your problem in getting the paperwork this probably will not help you, but I didn’t want others to be discouraged from using the Petrine approach.

 

[FrDavid96]

Since you’ve already looked at the local parishes and come up empty, have you tried the Military Archdiocese? Since the father was in the military at the time, it is possible that the children might have been baptised by a Catholic military chaplain. Just a possibility to check. It seems odd that the records are missing for “several sons” and that leads me to believe you might be looking in the wrong place altogether.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m going to do some legwork and try to find a newspaper announcement of the ex-husband’s birth–if I’m lucky, I might even find an announcement of the baptism, which sometimes happened in the 1960’s and earlier. I may discover that the family lived in some other parish boundaries at the time.

OR the marriage tribunal may find records from the regularization of the parents’ marriage that could be a help.

Other than this, I dunno where to go. Any advice?

have your pastor approach the pastor that seems the most likely place of residence of the individual at that time, or the diocese, have as much info as possible, child’s name, birthdate and place, where the family lived at probably time of baptism, parents names, and names of godparents, if known, and any other facts you do know (for instance, did he attend a parish school). The diocese can release the information to your pastor, although not to you, regarding his baptism.

 

[flameburns623]

Thanks for all of the replies. I have not yet been able to get over to the local newspaper office to check birthdates. The suggestions about the military archdiocese are very helpful. The peition can go forward as a Petrine dissolution even if we never turn up a Catholic baptismal certificate on this guy. I am marginally hopeful that the biological mother will–when asked directly by the Diociesan Tribunal–come up with a valid baptismal certificate. There is always a slim hope that the ex-husband himself will cooperate, although he is saying right now that he absolutely will not.

I’ve thought of contacting all parishes in our diocese–and in the neighboring Belleville diocese as well–in a shotgun manner. I’m not hopeful that would be an efficient methodology. Better if I could definitely establish the birthplace and/or legal residence of the family in the time period of his birth. This would narrow things down to one or two parishes at most.

No one seems to know the names of godparents, priest, etcetera, or they are dummying up for whatever reason. My own father was a sales executive whose job involved regular transfers. He moved us every six to nine months for several years when I was growing up–but if you named any year between the time I was born and the present, I could give you a ballpark guess of where I was living at the time, within one or two places. I think if these folks really wanted to be helpful I’d already have all of the information I needed.

Thanks for your help though, folks!

 

[IrishAm]

I’ve thought of contacting all parishes in our diocese–and in the neighboring Belleville diocese as well–in a shotgun manner. I’m not hopeful that would be an efficient methodology. Better if I could definitely establish the birthplace and/or legal residence of the family in the time period of his birth. This would narrow things down to one or two parishes at most.

That’s basically what I did when trying to track down my ex-husband’s baptismal certificate. Started calling the “most likely” parishes in St. Louis (based on where I thought his parents lived when he was born) and got lucky on about the eighth try!

 

[flameburns623]

Supposedly the ex-husband has long since left the Catholic Church and been re-baptised as a Baptist.

Y’know, Jack Chick used to clam that the Vatican has a huge supercomputer that keeps tabs on all Protestants generally, especially on those who leave the Catholic Church. Shame they won’t let me access the databanks there in Rome!

 

[flameburns623]

That’s basically what I did when trying to track down my ex-husband’s baptismal certificate. Started calling the “most likely” parishes in St. Louis (based on where I thought his parents lived when he was born) and got lucky on about the eighth try!

If I find a birth announcement that is how I will proceed. Calling every parish between here and Belleville would be quite a stretch, however.

It always startles me how many of the members here are ‘close neighbors’ of mine here in the Greater St. Louis area. Almost makes me feel as if the other posters on the forum are real people .

 

[graceandglory]

there is some reason to expect that my wife’s family would not cooperate–my wife’s stepfather is a Baptist minister of the most fundamental kind.

Wow! You think he would fight for the legitimacy of your marriage? That’s amazing! My fundamentalist MIL wanted to get rid of me long before my ex husband did. She hated my catholicity even when I wasn’t a Catholic. It took some convincing, but my ex finally saw things her way.

 

[graceandglory]

Supposedly the ex-husband has long since left the Catholic Church and been re-baptised as a Baptist.

Y’know, Jack Chick used to clam that the Vatican has a huge supercomputer that keeps tabs on all Protestants generally, especially on those who leave the Catholic Church. Shame they won’t let me access the databanks there in Rome!

This is one place I wish Jack Chick was right.

The baptists don’t keep records of baptisms like Catholics do. They don’t believe in “One baptism for the forgiveness of sins,” otherwise, they would ask for prior baptismal records. But they don’t. It’s not as official as a Catholic baptism. I was away from the Catholic Church for 20 yrs, and found my sacrament records in the Archdiocese in which I was originally baptized.

 

[flameburns623]

Wow! You think he would fight for the legitimacy of your marriage? That’s amazing! My fundamentalist MIL wanted to get rid of me long before my ex husband did. She hated my catholicity even when I wasn’t a Catholic. It took some convincing, but my ex finally saw things her way.

There’s a little confusion here.

My wife’s ex-husband and his family will probably not cooperate with the Tribunal just because they have issues with my wife. I don’t know the reasons, and don’t want to speculate too much. I don’t know them. From what I can see, they would gain nothing one way or another from not cooperating, they just don’t want to hear* from* us, about us, or do anything that has anything to do with us for any reason.

My wife’s own family (my present mother-in-law and father-in-law) would not cooperate because they do not approve of the Catholic Church and will likely come down very hard on myself and especially on my wife about this whole process. They’ll seek to say things like “if you agree to do this, you’re saying that the two of you have been living in adultery for all of these years”, and “the Catholic Church wants to do this because they think all Protestants are living in adultery”. I’m not saying that this is what the Catholic Church really teaches, only that my MIL and FIL would be likely to say such things to my wife and I.

Their biggest fear would be that over time my wife might elect to follow me into the Catholic Church. That would offend them immensely not the least because my father-in-law has preached sermons against the Catholic Church in times past. And this would be a salvation issue for them: my father in law does not believe that Catholics go to Heaven, ever. No matter how holy they may seem to live. He told me at about the time of John Paul II’s death that he was feeling very sad knowing that such a great man had lost his chance for Heaven by not renouncing the CC. Catholics are, in his view, trapped in a religious system of works that cannot save. Let’s not make this a subject of discussion in this thread–I’m simply explaining the issue you asked about.

Since my wife is not really all of that close to her family, especially not to her stepfather, this won’t necessarily be a continual battle. But my wife is not joining the Church with me: she thinks that Catholics are ‘weird’ for the same reason she thought same thing of Episcopalians–all the ritual and kneeling and all of that–and she really isn’t motivated to try to understand.

She’s not gonna leave me over this either: it’s just something that could be a source of tension between her and her folks, and between I and my in-laws for a few years. If I could find the ex-husband’s baptismal certificate, this would forestall contact between the Tribunal and my MIL, avoiding some of the worst fallout that may otherwise result. We only see these folks once or twice a year–in fact I see them much less often than that. While we’re not keeping this secret, we’re not volunteering the information either if we can avoid it. This has a lot to do with my FIL’s health, which is not very good. He does not need to become exercised over an issue like this if we can avoid it.

 

[flameburns623]

All right. I have just confirmed that the ex-hubby was born in Virginia. His dad and mom were living on or near Langley AFB in Virginia, and my wife says she already KNEW that her ex was born someplace in Virginia. Now I need to track down the Military Archdiocese and see if they can produce a baptismal certificate. Any further advice would be apprieciated.

 

[puzzleannie]

Archidiocese for Military Services
Attention: Sacramental Records
PO Box 4469
Washington DC 20017
202-269-9100

again, your parish secretary or pastor will have better luck asking for records than you will as a private person

Provide Date of birth, full name of child and parents, and any service info you have on the parent who was in the military. The more complete obviously the better the result.

as a note for others in a similar situation, if either parent was in the military this source should always be checked if you don’t know where the baptism occured.

also the same office has the Bishop’s Committee on Migration and Tourism, so if the family were migrant workers, undocumented, transient etc it is worth checking this source as well.

 

[flameburns623]

Spoke to the Tribunal yesterday. They are requesting the baptismal certificate from the Military Archdiocese immediately, but say it may take a week or so for them to get the certificate if it exists. The person I spoke to told me not to be too concerned about finding the baptismal certificate. We’ve got a lot of good reasons to believe the ex-husband was baptised Roman Catholic, including the statements to me and the fact that the parents were married in a Catholic Church. (It was in the newspaper announcement of the parent’s wedding that I learned where they were planning on living after the marriage).

So the Tribunal is going to send the ex-husband a nice letter giving him five or ten days to reply. In the letter they will advise him of the Tribunal’s intent to presume he was baptised Roman Catholic. He will have so-many-days to respond with evidence, including signed statements from his parents, that he was NEVER baptised Roman Catholic. Otherwise the Tribunal will proceed on the presumption that he was in fact baptised Catholic and they will then do the dissolution of marriage as a non-canonical form. In about three weeks, even if the ex-husband does nothing, my wife and I would have letters dissolving our marriages.

The best evidence would be an actual baptismal certificate in hand, but barring that we’re bargaining on the ex-husband’s “co-operation by silence”. Worst-case scenario would be if the ex-husband collects the evidence–even if perjured–that he was never baptised, AND the Tribunal cannot get the baptismal certificate. In that case my wife’s marriage moves forward as a Petrine dissolution, which is slower but still do-able.

So this is now a waiting game.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I really like your update, because I hear so many people gripe about tribunals. Yours seems to be very sympathetic. hang in there!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Congratulations on your success with the Tribunal, and continued prayers for a successful outcome. - Joe

 

[puzzleannie]

bottom line is there is a solution through every obstacle, it just takes patience, creativity and cooperation with the Holy Spirit, so others in similar circumstances, do not be discouraged by blanket statements such as
“we need the baptismal certificate” (no, there are other ways to attest the fact of baptism)

“you cannot receive sacraments” (only the priest in confession can make that determination for a specific individual in a specific circumstance)

“the class has already started, you will have to wait until next year” ( but there are some things you can be reading and doing to help you prepare if this parish indeed keeps the sad practice of school-year scheduling)

 

[flameburns623]

The Tribunal got all of the paperwork on Monday and today my “Dissolution For Non-Canonical Form” arrived–three-day turnaround.

The dissolution of my wife’s first marriage will take longer–as indicated earlier, they’re probably going to send her ex a letter or a form with all of the ‘facts’ we believe to be true. We know the parents were married as Catholics and that the mother and father have told me that the ex was baptised a Catholic. The ex is indicating he will neither respond nor cooperate, so they’re shifting the onus onto him. He’ll have so long to respond to ‘correct’ any errors in the form or the letter the Tribunal is sending him–if he ignores the letter, his silence counts as consent that those ‘facts’ are true.

Meanwhile they are still awaiting response from the military archdiocese–all they really need is the baptismal certificate and my wife’s first marriage can be dissolved for non-canonical form as well. The representative at the Tribunal suggests it could take a month at most. Things are moving apace.

So–what does a ‘regularization of marriage’ entail? Is there a ceremony of some sort or do my wife and I just sign something and I’m then free to return to the sacraments?