Finding Wife's ex-hubby's baptismal certificate?

[puzzleannie]

TheSo–what does a ‘regularization of marriage’ entail? Is there a ceremony of some sort or do my wife and I just sign something and I’m then free to return to the sacraments?

good to see the system is working for you

“regularize” means your civil marriage will be convalidated, you will participate in the rite of the sacrament of matrimony witnessed by a priest or deacon as well as of course two witnesses of your choosing. In this jurisdiction you will actually get another civil marriage license, that part depends on where you are. You will go through a marriage preparation process tailored for your situation, obviously not the same as a young engaged couple, takes into account whether you have children together, step-children, how long you have been together, resolving baggage from previous marriages etc. In this diocese there is a one-day workshop slash retreat slash convalidation conference as well.

The same care must be taken to assure the conditions are in place for this marriage to be valid. In addition, in a case where a previous marriage was annulled, care will be taken to make sure than impediment no longer exists.

The convalidation will take place in a church or chapel, and can be as formal or as informal as you wish. Discuss this with whoever is overseeing your marriage preparation. It can be done before or after any regularly scheduled Mass, with just you and witnesses, or you can have attendants, flowers etc.

 

[FrDavid96]

The Tribunal got all of the paperwork on Monday and today my “Dissolution For Non-Canonical Form” arrived–three-day turnaround.

The dissolution of my wife’s first marriage will take longer–as indicated earlier, they’re probably going to send her ex a letter or a form with all of the ‘facts’ we believe to be true. We know the parents were married as Catholics and that the mother and father have told me that the ex was baptised a Catholic. The ex is indicating he will neither respond nor cooperate, so they’re shifting the onus onto him. He’ll have so long to respond to ‘correct’ any errors in the form or the letter the Tribunal is sending him–if he ignores the letter, his silence counts as consent that those ‘facts’ are true.

Meanwhile they are still awaiting response from the military archdiocese–all they really need is the baptismal certificate and my wife’s first marriage can be dissolved for non-canonical form as well. The representative at the Tribunal suggests it could take a month at most. Things are moving apace.

So–what does a ‘regularization of marriage’ entail? Is there a ceremony of some sort or do my wife and I just sign something and I’m then free to return to the sacraments?

Glad to hear you’re making progress!

A convalidation “looks” exactly like any other marriage. The only difference is that it should be less “celebratory” and a little more subdued. The actual words and the actual ritual are identical to that of a “regular” marriage ceremony.

If you’ve been in your civil marriage for a while, you’re probably not looking for some elaborate ceremony anyway (like 1000 guests and a limousine!) Most people in your situation just have immediate family and close friends. Don’t worry about renting a tux!

PS Important point here. Remember that you cannot actually make concrete plans for the ceremony until all of the paperwork is completed AND you have the bishop’s permission for a convalidation.

 

[FrDavid96]

good to see the system is working for you

“regularize” means your civil marriage will be convalidated, you will participate in the rite of the sacrament of matrimony witnessed by a priest or deacon as well as of course two witnesses of your choosing. In this jurisdiction you will actually get another civil marriage license, that part depends on where you are. You will go through a marriage preparation process tailored for your situation, obviously not the same as a young engaged couple, takes into account whether you have children together, step-children, how long you have been together, resolving baggage from previous marriages etc. In this diocese there is a one-day workshop slash retreat slash convalidation conference as well.

The same care must be taken to assure the conditions are in place for this marriage to be valid. In addition, in a case where a previous marriage was annulled, care will be taken to make sure than impediment no longer exists.

The convalidation will take place in a church or chapel, and can be as formal or as informal as you wish. Discuss this with whoever is overseeing your marriage preparation. It can be done before or after any regularly scheduled Mass, with just you and witnesses, or you can have attendants, flowers etc.

Realy? Texas requires a second marriage license for a convalidation? I didn’t know that. Never heard of it before. That seems a bit odd, but I’ve never done (or even been to) a convalidation in Texas. Live and learn.

 

[flameburns623]

Glad to hear you’re making progress!

A convalidation “looks” exactly like any other marriage. The only difference is that it should be less “celebratory” and a little more subdued. The actual words and the actual ritual are identical to that of a “regular” marriage ceremony.

If you’ve been in your civil marriage for a while, you’re probably not looking for some elaborate ceremony anyway (like 1000 guests and a limousine!) Most people in your situation just have immediate family and close friends. Don’t worry about renting a tux!

PS Important point here. Remember that you cannot actually make concrete plans for the ceremony until all of the paperwork is completed AND you have the bishop’s permission for a convalidation.

Oh jeeminey! I told my wife that the thing would be a sort of renewal of vows–we’ve been married ten years already!!!, but I was just joking with her. Wasn’t expecting a ritual or rite would actually be involved.

And did someone say she’d have to have some sort of instructions or take some sort of class? She already thinks this whole thing is rather elaborate and weird.

 

[puzzleannie]

And did someone say she’d have to have some sort of instructions or take some sort of class? She already thinks this whole thing is rather elaborate and weird.

I can see why she would, but remind her the blunt fact is we are talking about a situation where there has been at least one failed or broken marriage (I’ve lost track of the facts a bit). Even a secular or non-denom counsellor or pastor would advise, in prudence, that the parties look honestly at their past and present situation, try to identify the reasons problems arouse, acknowledge problems that were present at the time of the first marriage which should have sent warning signals, and do their very best to assure that this union will be valid and lasting.

 

[flameburns623]

I can see why she would, but remind her the blunt fact is we are talking about a situation where there has been at least one failed or broken marriage (I’ve lost track of the facts a bit). Even a secular or non-denom counsellor or pastor would advise, in prudence, that the parties look honestly at their past and present situation, try to identify the reasons problems arouse, acknowledge problems that were present at the time of the first marriage which should have sent warning signals, and do their very best to assure that this union will be valid and lasting.

My present wife and I have a very good marriage. As i say, we’ve been together more than ten years, each of us having taken a bit more care the second time around. I was looking at the idea of taking her to a Catholic Marriage Encounter or whatever they call it these days. Biggest concern about that is how ‘Catholic’ the weekend would be. She is the ultimate “that’s so ten minutes ago” sort of person. She is utterly mystified by the idea that by getting involved with Episcopalianism and now with Roman Catholicism I am attending worship that is ancient and historic. She has no interest in history.

She attended my Episcopalian confirmation, where the Anglican priest made some remark to her that “we are worshipping the way Christians have done for more than a thousand years”, and while she was polite at the time–her remark to me later was “A THOUSAND YEARS!!! Isn’t it time they did something different?” While I find anything too new or modern to be off-utting. You can see that she and I are different in this respect.

Thanks for the responses, btw, and for the head’s-up. I really thought this was going to be rather more straightforward.

 

[FrDavid96]

My present wife and I have a very good marriage. As i say, we’ve been together more than ten years, each of us having taken a bit more care the second time around. I was looking at the idea of taking her to a Catholic Marriage Encounter or whatever they call it these days. Biggest concern about that is how ‘Catholic’ the weekend would be. She is the ultimate “that’s so ten minutes ago” sort of person. She is utterly mystified by the idea that by getting involved with Episcopalianism and now with Roman Catholicism I am attending worship that is ancient and historic. She has no interest in history.

She attended my Episcopalian confirmation, where the Anglican priest made some remark to her that “we are worshipping the way Christians have done for more than a thousand years”, and while she was polite at the time–her remark to me later was “A THOUSAND YEARS!!! Isn’t it time they did something different?” While I find anything too new or modern to be off-utting. You can see that she and I are different in this respect.

Thanks for the responses, btw, and for the head’s-up. I really thought this was going to be rather more straightforward.

Flame,

You were later validly confirmed, right? The answer is probably yes, but just making sure. I have seen cases where this was erroneously omitted, and it makes a difference for your marriage preparation.

 

[flameburns623]

Flame,

You were later validly confirmed, right? The answer is probably yes, but just making sure. I have seen cases where this was erroneously omitted, and it makes a difference for your marriage preparation.

Not yet. I have been away from the RCC since about 1980, joined the Episcopalian Church roughly in 2001/2002, was confirmed there in 2004 and am only just now coming back to the RCC.

 

[FrDavid96]

Not yet. I have been away from the RCC since about 1980, joined the Episcopalian Church roughly in 2001/2002, was confirmed there in 2004 and am only just now coming back to the RCC.

OK “not yet” puts my mind at ease. You probably already know this, but for the benefit of other readers, Catholics are expected to be confirmed before marriage. Lack of confirmation doesn’t make the marriage invalid (or even illicit in the strictest sense), but it is expected to be done first.
I just didn’t want you to get everything else done, and then realize at the last moment that you needed to be confirmed.

 

[flameburns623]

OK “not yet” puts my mind at ease. You probably already know this, but for the benefit of other readers, Catholics are expected to be confirmed before marriage. Lack of confirmation doesn’t make the marriage invalid (or even illicit in the strictest sense), but it is expected to be done first.
I just didn’t want you to get everything else done, and then realize at the last moment that you needed to be confirmed.

Actually some of this is mystifying to me.

When I joined the RCC my priest offered to get a dispensation of some sort to confirm me at the same time he baptised me–I had just joined the Army via Delayed Entry Program and apparently dispensations of this sort were common for military personnel. My chaplain at my primary duty station, several years later, made a similar offer. In both cases I declined, preferring to be confirmed directly by a bishop.

In 1994 my stepdad passed away very abruptly and because he had been baptised Catholic (he never practiced), I actually contacted a local church to have a mass said on his behalf. It came out that I had been Catholic and the priest seriously wanted me to do the paperwork to regularize what would have been my first marriage. I was left with the strong impression that the whole thing involved nothing more than paperwork. (Actually it probably would have been VERY tricky, since my first wife had been married previously, in a Protestant church wedding). No concern was expressed at that time about my confirmation.

Now I’m doing all the work to actually come back to the Church and more and more stuff keeps popping up. No one’s fault, really, but it surely didn’t look as complicated as it seems to be becoming.

 

[FrDavid96]

Actually some of this is mystifying to me.

When I joined the RCC my priest offered to get a dispensation of some sort to confirm me at the same time he baptised me–I had just joined the Army via Delayed Entry Program and apparently dispensations of this sort were common for military personnel. My chaplain at my primary duty station, several years later, made a similar offer. In both cases I declined, preferring to be confirmed directly by a bishop.

In 1994 my stepdad passed away very abruptly and because he had been baptised Catholic (he never practiced), I actually contacted a local church to have a mass said on his behalf. It came out that I had been Catholic and the priest seriously wanted me to do the paperwork to regularize what would have been my first marriage. I was left with the strong impression that the whole thing involved nothing more than paperwork. (Actually it probably would have been VERY tricky, since my first wife had been married previously, in a Protestant church wedding). No concern was expressed at that time about my confirmation.

Now I’m doing all the work to actually come back to the Church and more and more stuff keeps popping up. No one’s fault, really, but it surely didn’t look as complicated as it seems to be becoming.

They were most likely assuming that you had been confirmed. As part of the pre-marriage investigagion (when you reach that point, as it cannot start yet), it will come out that you haven’t been confirmed, so the best thing to do is get this out in the open now rather than try to deal with it at the last minute. Now I am glad that I brought it up. Don’t want to see a “I have to get confirmed in a week, what do I do?” thread here when the time comes!

I know it isn’t easy. I’ve been through a lot of these situations. Take some comfort in knowing that the Church wants things to be done properly rather than just being done.

Put it this way, when you have your car serviced, do you want the mechanic to be thorough, or quick? Do you want to know that your tires were replaced properly, or would you settle for a mechanic who just sticks them on there and hopes for the best? How about a mechanic who says to himself “four lugnuts is as good as five!” ? Would you trust that car for your children?

Sure it takes longer.
Your journey is not an easy one, and the last thing I want to do is to belittle the efforts that you’re making. But remember that in the end (especially in THE END) it will all be worthwhile!

 

[flameburns623]

Spoke to my parish priest today about the matters discussed last night. He thinks I’m making things harder than they need be. In his view, I am nigh unto fifty years old and have been a Catholic for over thirty of those years; I’m well-informed about the basics of the faith so there is no reason for extended classes on Confirmation or an RCIA program. Once we have the other dissolution of marriage, he will give me some materials to read over and an appointment of some sort will be made to have me confirmed.

Don’t know if I will have to drive to the diocesan headquarters to meet with the bishop or if my priest will seek dispensation to perform the confirmation himself. It sounded as if he looks to do the latter. He wishes the priest who had baptised me initially had gone ahead and gotten permission to confirm me at that time; it would have saved a lot of extra trouble now.

My wife and I are also well past child-bearing years and our marriage is sound and experiencing no issues. Marriage Encounter would be a good thing for us if we want to do it, but it isn’t going to be a requirement for regularizing the marriage. He will meet with my wife and I once or twice, but he sees no reason to put a married couple who have been together for over ten years through a series of prenuptial classes–not to mention that we already went through prenuptial classes when we got legally married. The way he talked, whatever ceremony is performed will just be done in his office, and apparently will be quite peremptory.

Again: if we were wanting to do a formal renewal of vows or whatever, we could be more elaborate, but if all we’re trying to do is clear away the debris and make it possible for me to return to the sacraments, it isn’t strictly obligatory.

I’m posting this as an encouragement to others–the process may not be so long as it is sometimes made out to be. Different dioceses and different situations may make a difference, but the priest stressed that the emphasis in our diocese is getting people back into active participation in the Church. He expects that if all goes well, my own situation could be resolved very quickly.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

:thumbsup:to your priest and :clapping: for you!

 

[flameburns623]

Wife’s dissolution-of-marriage arrived today so everything is pretty much downhill from here. The priest is going to have me read some things preparatory to confirmation, get a dispensation to allow him to confirm me, and then we can make arrangements to have my present marriage blessed. (Since my wife is not baptised and is not following me into the CC, the marriage will be ‘blessed’ rather than ‘regularized’ with a quasi-marital ceremony). Probably will finish the process in a matter of weeks.

 

[puzzleannie]

Wife’s dissolution-of-marriage arrived today so everything is pretty much downhill from here. The priest is going to have me read some things preparatory to confirmation, get a dispensation to allow him to confirm me, and then we can make arrangements to have my present marriage blessed. (Since my wife is not baptised and is not following me into the CC, the marriage will be ‘blessed’ rather than ‘regularized’ with a quasi-marital ceremony). Probably will finish the process in a matter of weeks.

no it will not be blessed, nor regularized. Your marriage will be convalidated, which simply means that by means of the witness of the priest, and his diligence in working with you to make sure conditions for a valid marriage are present, your civil marriage is brought into conformity with Catholic canon law. It is not a quasi-anything. Your marriage will now become valid, although not sacramental as your wife is not yet baptized. (since we are all going to be praying for her and you, don’t know how long she will be able to hold out.) T

his means you, the Catholic party, can now enjoy the fullness of graces of the Eucharist and other sacraments.

God bless you. and stand back, the grace about to shower you will be a tidal wave. another tiny technical detail, he will be granted the faculty to confirm you, not a dispensation (wow now you want to talk about grace, just wait until the Holy Spirit gets going with your life!)

God bless your priest for his care and concern in leading you through this, and God bless you for an example of how a Catholic cooperates with the Church to enter into fullness of union with Her.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

:clapping: :clapping: Right on, annie!

 

[flameburns623]

no it will not be blessed, nor regularized. Your marriage will be convalidated, which simply means that by means of the witness of the priest, and his diligence in working with you to make sure conditions for a valid marriage are present, your civil marriage is brought into conformity with Catholic canon law…

Unless I have the terminology confused: the marriage cannot be ‘convalidated’ precisely because my wife is not baptised. It can only be ‘blessed’. It nonetheless becomes sacramental as you said, if and when my wife were to join the CC.

Technically, since my marriage was performed by a minister, it is not a ‘civil marriage’. My wife’s family absolutely loathed the idea of us being married by a JP so made a last-minute call to their own pastor, who had us stop in the evening before we planned to marry for a session of prenuptial counseling. His church preferred that three sessions of marital counseling take place for their pastors to perform weddings so a second session was done about five minutes before the ceremony; and the third about a week following.

 

[Holland]

Unless I have the terminology confused: the marriage cannot be ‘convalidated’ precisely because my wife is not baptised. It can only be ‘blessed’. It nonetheless becomes sacramental as you said, if and when my wife were to join the CC.

Technically, since my marriage was performed by a minister, it is not a ‘civil marriage’. My wife’s family absolutely loathed the idea of us being married by a JP so made a last-minute call to their own pastor, who had us stop in the evening before we planned to marry for a session of prenuptial counseling. His church preferred that three sessions of marital counseling take place for their pastors to perform weddings so a second session was done about five minutes before the ceremony; and the third about a week following.

puzzleannie is correct, your marriage will be “convalidated”. My husband and I went through the same process a couple of years ago. My husband is not Catholic, nor has he been baptised. She is also right about the tidal wave of grace. While my husband is still not baptised he is closer than he was a couple of years ago. He has read some of the Catechism and he went to Mass with me on Christmas. He said some of the prayers and even sang the songs. Also my brother in law who used to make fun of me and call me a Papist is now a Catholic. So get ready for some changes. Good Luck and God Bless!

 

[puzzleannie]

Unless I have the terminology confused: the marriage cannot be ‘convalidated’ precisely because my wife is not baptised. It can only be ‘blessed’. It nonetheless becomes sacramental as you said, if and when my wife were to join the CC.

.

every marriage is a civil marriage if it complies with civil law, no matter who witnessed it. For a Catholic, however, canon law must also be complied with, and that is what you are doing, hence your marriage now becomes valid, that is “convalidated” not just blessed. Yes, a Catholic can enter into a valid marriage with an unbaptized person, with a dispensation, which you have, and providing both are otherwise free to marry, which you have now established. Congratulations! Felicitations!

 

[Phemie]

You know, it’s entirely possible that for reasons unmentioned here his pastor is going the radical sanation route and will only be conferring a nuptial blessing.