Fine line between Faith and Mental Illness

[goodcatholic]

Just to contradict myself here, I will refer to my dear deceased father’s life. A gentle humble man who never missed Mass nor tithing.no matter how little in his bank account.
He was a man of action. Not an intellectual. President of the Saint Vincent de Paul for over 20 years and visited the sick and elderly in Hospital.
His life was a prayer. (so Joey Baggs your post does resonate, thanks) But you know I don’t think he really had a private prayer life. His faith was more instinctive than conscious. I cant imagine him praying to God in his free time. Yet the love of God shone through him. He loved and never had a bad word to say about anyone really. He suffered bullying at work and form some of my older brothers but never held any grudges.
So I agree your life can be a prayer.
But I think we need some clarification here. because how often have I seen that assertion from Protestants especially “nice guys don’t go to Heaven. They need faith as well”

 

[margaret42]

It’s always been said that “actions speak louder than words”. Yes; but in the case of prayer, you often have to use words, although most of the time silently. And even if it is out loud, as with Mass, then those words are okay to say. There is no mental illness when praying aloud. And if others think you are, then pray for them.

 

[goodcatholic]

The Seven Works of Mercy:

1. To instruct the ignorant.
2. To counsel the doubtful.
3. To admonish the sinners.
4. To bear patiently those who wrong us.
5. To forgive offenses.
6. To comfort the afflicted.
7. To pray for the living and the dead.

I should do a whole thread on these. Number 3 worries me but number 1 does too. How it would be interpreted by Christians. “My job is to instruct the ignorant.” They will overlook their own ignorance perhaps? It just creates a minefield of problems in my view.

 

[Jump4Joy]

I wouldn’t compare it to getting a tattoo or body piercing. If they are mentally ill and damaging themselves for God, I think God also told us our body is a temple. I don’t think that’s correct. I’m always turned off by old century saints and their supposed holiness for burning themselves, gauging their eyes out, fasting until they are dead. That’s very dangerous. I don’t see the beauty in that. I don’t think it should be condoned or ignored. It’s not whatever floats your boat situation to me.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll bet some mystics like St. John of the Cross and Therese of Avila appeared delusional.

Since there was no concept of “mental illness” mystical experiences were often ascribed to the devil. You are right, many of the saints, including Joan of Arc, were accused of consorting with the devil.

we have to silence the sceptical side of ourselves, the heckler.

God gave us reason and expects us to apply that reason to our experiences. I don’t think it should be “silenced” but definitely our experiences need to be subject to reason, as well as what God has revealed about Himself.

Am I wrong to think actions matter more than words

Not at all! Jesus is clear about this in many of the parables, especially the parable of the two sons inMatt. 21:28

I think how you live your life is one big prayer

This is the apostolic teaching.

So you’re saying prayer is action?

Absolutely. And sometimes the best action we can take, and sometimes the ONLY action we can take!

I know some pragmatic types even have a disdain for contemplative Catholics who “waste their time on prayer”.

Yes I think this is a contamination from the culture of “productivity”.

Correcting sinners? Rebuking them? But surely we should be focussing on our own sins. Not the sins of others.

Matthew 18:15 [ Reproving Another Who Sins ] “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Jesus did tell us to look at ourselves first, and take the log out of our own eye. But He also said that, having done so, we will see clearly to help our brother.

 

[Jump4Joy]

Not really. Maybe I’m more of aware of mental illness than the average person. I understand living as a recluse or hermit. I’m sorry but I’ll never disfigure my face because I deal with vanity. If someone out of religion, disfigured their face for some other reason people would think they were crazy. They’d evaluated for psychiatric reasons. You should look into the concept of holy anorexics. So if I starve myself intentionally because I have body dysmorphia, I have an issue, but I starve myself for God I don’t have an issue, it’s a matter of faith and shouldn’t be judged. I don’t agree with that line of reasoning at all. Apparently if you destroy your face for religious reasons, it’s now normal, acceptable and OK. Whatever.

 

[guanophore]

It is so easy to offend people on CAF. just state an opinion.

Especially a political one!

That sounds like a prejudice against contemplatives, to be honest.

No, most of that stuff does not demonstrate holiness. Only a very few are called to be a recluse. Most contemplatives live in community, and have to be able to get along with the other members.

His life was a prayer.

What a great saintly life! Quiet, persistent, and faithful. He is a good example for all of us.

 

[Jump4Joy]

A rapper when I was growing up plucked out of his eyes because of the unholiness he observed in the music industry. He has one eye now. I’m sure the music industry is corrupt. That’s VERY SAD he did this to myself.

 

[goodcatholic]

Jesus did tell us to look at ourselves first, and take the log out of our own eye. But He also said that, having done so, we will see clearly to help our brother.

This occurs right here on CAF and forums like it. Posters delight in finding fault in others in the guise of “steering them closer to the Lord” .

 

[goodcatholic]

My impression is that you were using extreme examples of some contemplatives to tar them all with the same brush. Most don’t choose starvation or disfigurement. I’m referring to orders such as Carmelites, Benedictines and Trappists.

 

[Jump4Joy]

No not that. Some people on here seem to think we shouldn’t judge people who practice extreme forms of religiosity. I don’t feel similarly. I’ve known people who have had fasting induced hallucinations that these were signs from God. I am turned off people condone this behavior. It’s scary.

 

[goodcatholic]

Some people on here seem to think we shouldn’t judge people who practice extreme forms of religiosity. I don’t feel similarly. I’ve known people who have had fasting induced hallucinations that these were signs from God. I am turned off people condone this behavior. It’s scary.

well of course that is mental illness. Nothing Christian about it either in my “humble” opinion.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve known people who have had fasting induced hallucinations that these were signs from God.

Many people have experienced fasting induced visions, including Jesus. They are not all signs from God, but we should never rule out that they may be.

 

[goodcatholic]

Most contemplatives live in community, and have to be able to get along with the other members.

That is the irony isn’t it. Dont become a monk to escape the human race.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I know some pragmatic types even have a disdain for contemplative Catholics who “waste their time on prayer”.

That’s an unfortunate attitude…prayer is vitally important. Time spent praying is never wasted. We need both kinds of people in the Church…those who are devoted to prayer and those who are always jumping in to lend a hand to help the needy.

Spiritual and corporeal works are important, but we shouldn’t be snobs and look down on people with different gifts.

Mother Teresa wasn’t a cloistered nun like St. Therese the Little Flower but they both made a big impact on the world.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

I wonder if you could elaborate on that one.
Correcting sinners? Rebuking them? But surely we should be focussing on our own sins. Not the sins of others.

Guanophore gave a good answer about this. We should ALWAYS be looking first to our own sin and too seek forgiveness for our faults first. And admonishing the sinner doesn’t mean everyone should be running around pointing out other’s sins. Only God knows someone’s heart.

But some obvious sins need to be pointed out, sometimes.

I’m sure scholars have written reams about it, but here are a few times that I can think of it being appropriate (obviously done in love and for the right reasons, i.e., not done out of pride, revenge, superiority, etc.):

1. A priest addressing sin in his homily.
2. A priest admonishing/counseling a penitent in the confessional.
3. The head of a religious community admonishing one of the souls in his/her care.
4. A parent rebuking a child and teaching correct behavior.
5. Someone admonishing a family member or close friend about a serious matter
6. Siblings admonishing each other and reminding each other about good behavior
7. A scholar/pastor/teacher writing books that help point out our sins (like The Screwtape Letters)
8. A therapist guiding a patient to stop sinful, destructive behavior
9. A judge rebuking a guilty prisoner before sentencing
10. Teachers/Principals correcting their students

And finally…

1. If someone on CAF genuinely asks for help and advice, we can point out issues that conflict with church teaching

 

[ratio1]

I think having faith is a risk.

Faith in anything is a risk.

Faith in your business venture is a risk.
Faith in your own voice may sound silly to others (such as great singers before they were discovered)

So yes things that were once accepted like religion may sound delusional today.
Things that were once considered delusional like gender identity may be considered normal today.

Ideas come and go. What’s important is hold on to things that are indeed eternal.

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Your father sounds like a wonderful man. You were very blessed to have him as an example.

 

[nightshade]

This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. Thank you so much for sharing that.

 

[goodcatholic]

obviously done in love and for the right reasons, i.e., not done out of pride, revenge, superiority, etc.):

You make an excellent point here and I hope everyone is reading this on the forum. Our intentions.
"rebuke and “admonish” are strong words in my book. To me, they suggest a strong authoritarian tone as if the admonisher is in a superior position.
I think they need to use more sensitive language. How we communicate is crucially important. It says a lot about our attitude and level of self-awareness.