Finite past proves God exists

  • Thread starter Thread starter empther
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
For the sake of argument I’m more than happy to accept as an premise “there was some thing or things which were not themselves caused which caused the universe”. But getting from there to “it must have been a sentient omnipotent being” is where the challenge lies as far as i can see.
Agreed, but personally never having seen a logically convincing argument either for or against God, I don’t really see the point of any of them but guess others do.

I’m quite happy to do the easier job of pointing out weak points though :), and in the case of Eternal Quantum Foam: it’s not even wrong (can’t be falsified), turtles all the way down (doesn’t say why the foam exists), and pulls a rabbit out of the hat (says nothing about why the universe has the physics it does).
 
Agreed, but personally never having seen a logically convincing argument either for or against God, I don’t really see the point of any of them but guess others do.

I’m quite happy to do the easier job of pointing out weak points though :), and in the case of Eternal Quantum Foam: it’s not even wrong (can’t be falsified), turtles all the way down (doesn’t say why the foam exists), and pulls a rabbit out of the hat (says nothing about why the universe has the physics it does).
Entirely agree with everything you say above. Well put too (I’ve always liked the “turtles all the way down” argument 🙂 ).
 
Entirely agree with everything you say above. Well put too (I’ve always liked the “turtles all the way down” argument 🙂 ).
Apologies, I should caveat this with “from my extremely limited understanding of the physics”.
 
message 89

🍿
Ok, so you’re saying that somewhere in post #89 you have shown that for something to be a prime mover it must also be an omnipotent sentient being. Correct?

Ok, lets have a look.
JDaniel,

If Candide says her “PM” is infinite she goes against Aquinas who said God is infinite because he is his own existence, and nothing else but God could be intinite because anything else would be limited by its own “potentiality”, that is, its ability to change, which cannot be the feature of an infinite thing.
Ok, so now you need to support that an “eternal quantum foam” or “chance” or “anything else” must be limited by it’s “potentiality” or ability to change. This would seem to include two parts, firstly showing that anything other than God MUST have the ability to change (but God doesn’t) and secondly that this ability to change means that something cannot be infinite.

Of course once you have done this there is still the outstanding challenge of showing that only an infinite thing could create a finite universe.
Article 2: Whether His power is infinite?

Reply to Objection 2, Aquinas says:
The power of a univocal agent is wholly manifested in its effect. The generative power of man, for example, is not able to do more than beget man. But the power of a non-univocal agent does not wholly manifest itself in the production of its effect: as, for example, the power of the sun does not wholly manifest itself in the production of an animal generated from putrefaction. Now it is clear that God is not a univocal agent. For nothing agrees with Him either in species or in genus, as was shown above (Question [3], Article [5]; Question [4], Article [3]). Whence it follows that His effect is always less than His power. It is not necessary, therefore, that the infinite power of God should be manifested so as to produce an infinite effect. Yet even if it were to produce no effect, the power of God would not be ineffectual; because a thing is ineffectual which is ordained towards an end to which it does not attain. But the power of God is not ordered toward its effect as towards an end; rather, it is the end of the effect produced by it.
As far as I can see all that we can draw from this is that we cannot show that God’s power is less than infinite based on the universe being less than infinite. That’s fair enough, but it doesn’t seem to show that nothing else could possibly have infinite power. Nor does it show that infinite power is required to create something finite.
Where “univocal” means one meaning only. So in the natural world any thing only has the power to generate something similar to itself.
Hmmm, this seems inaccurate. I can and indeed have created many different things in my life. From cakes, to machines, none of which are anything like me.
So Candice’s “PM” if it is not God could only generate something similar to itself, which clearly is not the universe we see since it can’t create something from nothing.
But if God is inifite his power is also infinite, allowing him to create the universe from nothing.
Ok, so if I start from the initial premise that “there was some thing or things which were not themselves caused which caused the universe”. I think your most straightforwards route to supporting that this must have been god is to show each of the following.

1). there could not have been more than one thing involved in causing the universe.
2). only something infinite could cause the universe
3). only a sentient being could be infinite (i think this is the part you have started working on above. so you’ve now to show that anything non-sentient must have ability to change and ability to change prevents being infinite).

I think if you can solidly support those then you may well be getting somewhere. No worries if you wish to take a different route of course. I’m happy to discuss however you wish to proceed.

It’s interesting talking to you. I look forwards to hearing from you again.

Take Care
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by empther
forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Where “univocal” means one meaning only. So in the natural world any thing only has the power to generate something similar to itself.

Hmmm, this seems inaccurate. I can and indeed have created many different things in my life. From cakes, to machines, none of which are anything like me. :eek:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::extrahappy:

Laughable! Ridiculous! Ignorant!

Your whole thread is like this.

You don’t even begin to understand the subject matter. No amount of spoon-feeding can get you acclimated to these matters.
And this seems to be typical of the A-team. They’re in way over their heads.
 
“Quantum foam” is not a theory but something eternally existing, described by theory. It IS the something to “work with”.
A quantum foam that forks off a universe by some fluctuation now and then needs no creator (as it is eternal). Those fluctuations were naturally and by chance occuring events just like or at least very similar to the quantum fluctuations we observe here, and the prime movement of such a universe. While they lack all the alleged “necessary” attributes of a prime mover you have stated.
What about the 2nd Law of Thermodinamics that says that everything tends to enthropy?
 
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::extrahappy:
*
Laughable! *Ridiculous! * Ignorant!
Ahh so when constructing logical argument fails you again resort to mocking.*

It’s odd to me that you seem to have a lot of respect for Aquinas and yet instead of following his approach of tackling gaps in your arguments you simply mock your interlocutors. If my argument is incorrect then show that it is. That is how civilised discourse works.*
*
*Your whole thread is like this.
Er, this is YOUR thread. And I can hardly help it if you cannot support your own position.
*
*You don’t even begin to understand the subject matter. * *No amount of spoon-feeding can get you acclimated to these matters. *
And this seems to be typical of the A-team. *They’re in way over their heads.
Then by all means explain it to me. Are you trying to say that your statement that*“in the natural world any thing only has the power to generate something similar to itself.”*is true because:

a. I have never made those things.*

b. that cakes and machines etc are “similar” to myself.

c. That I am not in the natural world.*

As far as I can see those are the only options.

Incidentally, are you going to start working towards closing the outstanding gaps in your “proof” which I identified in my previous post? Ie that only something sentient could be infinite. That seems like a good place for you to start.
 
Ahh so when constructing logical argument fails you again resort to mocking.*
And you come uninvited on a Catholic website and say whatever you can say,
anything, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how confused, no matter how deceptive,
to assault our faith.
I feel like Prime Minister Netanyahu watching Iran develop the A-bomb.

It amazes me that the A-team is allowed to do this.

I’ve already filled in all the holes and connections, which in reality was nothing more than wholesale theft from Aquinas’s writiings. It’s not my theories, but at least I understand them.
It’s not my fault you can’t understand the whole package.

When I was a Captain in the U.S. Army, a private asked me what makes electrons move along a wire. I explained it to him in several sessions. Even drew pictures for him. He kept asking questions that showed he didn’t begin to understand what I was talking about. He just couldn’t get it.
 
And you come uninvited on a Catholic website and say whatever you can say,
anything, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how confused, no matter how deceptive, to assault our faith.
Odd, I haven’t said anything to assault your faith. Indeed I have already explained that I have no interest in attacking your faith.*

The reason we are having this conversation is that you stated that you could prove the existence of God.*

To date you (like Aquinas before you) have shown that if the universe had a start then there must have been a prime mover or prime movers. The challenge before you is to show that there could only be one prime mover and it must have been God (an omnipotent sentient being). You do not seem to have made much effort towards achieving this as yet.*

Until you suceed in this goal your “proof” has failed.*
I feel like Prime Minister Netanyahu watching Iran develop the A-bomb.*
Again, you seem to have a worryingly combative approach to these discussions. As far as I know at least you and I are not at war.
*
It amazes me that the A-team is allowed to do this.
Perhaps this is an issue to raise with the mods then? See if you can get all non-catholics banned. Personally I’ve been generally impressed with the open environment for discussion provided on this website. I think it shows an exemplary openness, and it speaks very well for your religion. But if you’d rather I’m sure there are plenty of forums available out there where only one religion or opinion is permitted.
I’ve already filled in all the holes and connections, which in reality was nothing more than wholesale theft from Aquinas’s writiings. It’s not my theories, but at least I understand them.

It’s not my fault you can’t understand the whole package.
*
Well again, where?

I identified the most direct route I can see for your proof to show the existence of God from where you have reached currently as follows:
1). there could not have been more than one thing involved in causing the universe.
2). only something infinite could cause the universe
3). only a sentient being could be infinite.**
As far as I can tell its only the last of these you have even attempted to show (although you aren’t there yet).

If you have another route then by all means sketch it out and then support each part.*
 
And you come uninvited on a Catholic website and say whatever you can say,
anything, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how confused, no matter how deceptive,
to assault our faith.
I feel like Prime Minister Netanyahu watching Iran develop the A-bomb.

It amazes me that the A-team is allowed to do this.

I’ve already filled in all the holes and connections, which in reality was nothing more than wholesale theft from Aquinas’s writiings. It’s not my theories, but at least I understand them.
It’s not my fault you can’t understand the whole package.

When I was a Captain in the U.S. Army, a private asked me what makes electrons move along a wire. I explained it to him in several sessions. Even drew pictures for him. He kept asking questions that showed he didn’t begin to understand what I was talking about. He just couldn’t get it.
Wow. Guess everyone on CAF should disengage from the fora. None of us were invited either. Who sent out these invitations anyway?

Empther, as a fellow believer, this is difficult to say, but far too many of your posts here are basically saying this: “Look, I just proved the existence of God. I can’t believe you morons who don’t agree with my proof are even here trying to debate with me. God exists and if you don’t think so, you’re an idiot who attacks our faith!”

Sorry if the mods are agitated by me swaying off topic to say this to you, but I just think somebody needs to say something. This is giving Christianity a bad name, which I can’t imagine is something acceptable to you.

Try to remember that you’re not just here to help others see that He exists, you’re here to demonstrate how that existence shines through you.
 
And you come uninvited on a Catholic website and say whatever you can say, anything, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how confused, no matter how deceptive, to assault our faith.
C.S. Lewis:
He works on us in all sorts of ways: not only through what we think is our ‘religious life’. He works through Nature, through our own bodies, through books, sometimes through experiences which seem (at the time) anti-Christian. When a young man who has been going to church in a routine way honestly realizes that he does not believe in Christianity and stops going-provided he does it for honesty’s sake and not just to annoy his parents-the spirit of Christ is probably nearer to him then than it ever was before.
 
Hi guys, I’m new here and I’ve been reading the whole thread, and I’d just like to give my humble opinion on the matter. 🙂

First of all, I have to respectfully disagree with the OP in that I don’t think that a finite universe necessarily proves the existence of God. I think this is what Aquinas also suggests (correct me if I’m wrong) because he thought that it was possible that the universe could have had no beginning and no end but still be created by God. That is to say, God could have simply created an eternal universe. Aquinas illustrates this in Aristotle’s example of how a foot eternally buried in the sand would also “eternally” cause a footprint. The foot’s pressure on the sand eternally causes the footprint but since the setting is precisely eternal (literally no time) then there is no beginning nor end. Thus the foot cannot be said to exist “before” the footprint, nor was there any actual point where the foot “began” to create the footprint. Also, I think Hindu religion attests as well as to how an infinite world does not preclude the existence of God since Hinduism generally believes that the universe is indeed infinite, being an endless cycle of reincarnation without beginning or end. And yet, Hindus do believe in a superior being or reality (Brahman) that causes this cyclical world. This is because, as I understand it, causation ultimately is not bound up with time. Thus A is the cause of B, but that does not necessarily mean that A existed “before” B.

Another main question in this thread appears to be why the Prime Mover has to be God, as understood in the Christian sense. Why can’t it be dark matter? Or chance? Well I think I can give an answer, but it is no means the final word on it. First of all, I don’t think Aquinas aimed to show the Christian God is real using the five ways. He simply used it to demonstrate the existence of God in general. I think the question as to why the Christian God is the real God is another topic in itself. But still, I think Aquinas took it for granted that when people spoke of God, they mean an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (along with all the other superlatives haha) being that has a mind and a will. This is because he was living in an environment where the religions of the day (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) generally identified God as such. So I think a more precise wording of the question is why does the PM have to be the God as generally understood by these monotheistic religions, and not just Christianity.

Now I think the OP already answered this question, but I hope I can clarify a little. The PM has to have such attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, will, mind etc, because to be the PM you have to be Pure Act having no potentiality. What does this mean? It means the PM can’t have the potential to “become” something else that it wasn’t before. Because if it still had potential, then it could be “moved” as it were, and thus it wouldn’t be the First or Prime Mover. So, for example, the PM can’t have the potential to become “smarter” because this means that it has the possibility of being moved. If it has still potential to become smarter, then the PM can, say, read a book containing precisely the things that it doesn’t know and thus actualizing the potential of being smart that it had. But in that case, it would be “moved” by the book from potentially being smarter to actually being smarter. But this can’t be since it is supposed to be the PM, which cannot be moved. Thus the PM must actualize all potentialities. It must have qualities (I don’t know if that’s the right word) to an infinite degree. So infinite knowledge, power, goodness and so forth. Needless to say, the PM can’t be inanimate or without a mind or will as well since having life, a mind and a will is a possible actuality. It must have these also to an infinite degree. Furthermore this also implies that there can only be one PM because if there were two or more, then they would have potentiality. That is to say, they would have potential to precisely become each other.

Now you may ask, “Well if that is the case, can’t the PM also actualize evil in an infinite degree?” In other words, why does the PM have to be infinitely good instead of infinitely evil? Well the answer would be that evil is not something that is “actualized” properly speaking. As classic Christian metaphysics states, evil is a privation, it is a “lack of something”. As Saint Augustine implies, it is like a parasite that clings to goodness but in itself has no substance. So in a nutshell you can’t actualize a lack. That is also why God can’t create evil, because, in a way, it is not a “thing” to be created. This of course doesn’t mean that evil is not real or is just an illusion, but that’s another topic.

Well I guess that’s it. Sorry for the long post. I do apologize for any mistakes, especially if it contradicts what our Catholic faith teaches. Please correct them accordingly. Thanks! 😃
 
Now I think the OP already answered this question, but I hope I can clarify a little. The PM has to have such attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, will, mind etc, because to be the PM you have to be Pure Act having no potentiality. What does this mean? It means the PM can’t have the potential to “become” something else that it wasn’t before. Because if it still had potential, then it could be “moved” as it were, and thus it wouldn’t be the First or Prime Mover. So, for example, the PM can’t have the potential to become “smarter” because this means that it has the possibility of being moved. If it has still potential to become smarter, then the PM can, say, read a book containing precisely the things that it doesn’t know and thus actualizing the potential of being smart that it had. But in that case, it would be “moved” by the book from potentially being smarter to actually being smarter. But this can’t be since it is supposed to be the PM, which cannot be moved. Thus the PM must actualize all potentialities. It must have qualities (I don’t know if that’s the right word) to an infinite degree. So infinite knowledge, power, goodness and so forth. Needless to say, the PM can’t be inanimate or without a mind or will as well since having life, a mind and a will is a possible actuality. It must have these also to an infinite degree. Furthermore this also implies that there can only be one PM because if there were two or more, then they would have potentiality. That is to say, they would have potential to precisely become each other.
Indeed that is a framework for proving the PM is a God, but I don’t think you can prove all those attributes so easily. Chance, for example, could create the universe without a will, knowledge, goodness, etc. It also could not gain those things because if it had a mind or knowledge or goodness, it would not be pure, random chance. Basically, that the PM can’t be changed does not imply that it can’t be changed because it is already infinite. Indeed, I’m not sure that the PM must be eternally unchanged, only that it was unchanged up to the point where it became the PM.
Now you may ask, “Well if that is the case, can’t the PM also actualize evil in an infinite degree?” In other words, why does the PM have to be infinitely good instead of infinitely evil? Well the answer would be that evil is not something that is “actualized” properly speaking. As classic Christian metaphysics states, evil is a privation, it is a “lack of something”. As Saint Augustine implies, it is like a parasite that clings to goodness but in itself has no substance. So in a nutshell you can’t actualize a lack. That is also why God can’t create evil, because, in a way, it is not a “thing” to be created. This of course doesn’t mean that evil is not real or is just an illusion, but that’s another topic.

Well I guess that’s it. Sorry for the long post. I do apologize for any mistakes, especially if it contradicts what our Catholic faith teaches. Please correct them accordingly. Thanks! 😃
Why can’t we just define an objective criterion for evil and define goodness as a privation of evil? Alternatively, the PM could simply lack goodness to an infinite degree.
 
The law is a statistical construct. It can be observed to be violated on small scales. It is also possible to violate the law on a large scale, although the chances of this happening are inconceivably small. The probability of violation is described by the fluctuation theorem: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluctuation_theorem
Thanks for the answer.
I know little of physics.
Now, I ask you the question, asking for help: If the Universe tends to entropy, is not so that you need something pr someone to raise it back from entropy? Is it a proof of the existence of God?
Thanks
 
Thanks for the answer.
I know little of physics.
Now, I ask you the question, asking for help: If the Universe tends to entropy, is not so that you need something pr someone to raise it back from entropy? Is it a proof of the existence of God?
Thanks
No, the fluctuation theorem says that there is always an incredibly small but non-zero chance that there will be a spontaneous ordering event.
 
Indeed that is a framework for proving the PM is a God, but I don’t think you can prove all those attributes so easily. Chance, for example, could create the universe without a will, knowledge, goodness, etc. It also could not gain those things because if it had a mind or knowledge or goodness, it would not be pure, random chance. Basically, that the PM can’t be changed does not imply that it can’t be changed because it is already infinite. Indeed, I’m not sure that the PM must be eternally unchanged, only that it was unchanged up to the point where it became the PM.

Why can’t we just define an objective criterion for evil and define goodness as a privation of evil? Alternatively, the PM could simply lack goodness to an infinite degree.
Hi TheTrueCentrist, thanks for your feedback :),

Again, admittedly I don’t have much to say about “chance” as of now. I’ll probably research on that later. Now, the PM has to be infinite because the only way that it can truly be free from being changed/moved, and thus actually be a Prime Mover, is if it had no potential at all that would give it the possibility to be changed/moved. It might also help if we try not thinking in terms of time. Like I said in my previous post, causality isn’t essentially bound up with time. I say this because by the way you phrase your reply (ie the PM was unchanged “up to the point” where it became the PM), I think you still see the PM in temporal terms. Think about it this way. Imagine that the whole history of the universe is one long horizontal line starting from the big bang up to the big crunch. Where’s the PM in this? The PM is not located “behind” the big bang, as if it was still part of the line. Rather the PM is what moves the entire line from potency to actuality. In other words, the PM is what causes the line itself. Likewise, it causes every other thing in the line to exist and not just what is chronologically the first thing (the big bang). And because the PM is outside the line, nothing inside the line can “move” it. In a way this also shows how the PM must be radically different from all the other things that it causes by being the PM. The difference is ontological. The thing that causes the line itself does not “share the reality,” as it were, of the things within the line. I guess the gist of this all is that the cause is often, if not always, ontologically greater than the effect. This is true even when it comes to human beings. We can’t produce things ontologically greater than ourselves. I don’t think we can even produce things that are ontologically equal to ourselves. That’s why we can’t make other human beings. We can reproduce ourselves but not produce. Come to think of it, it seems we can’t make things which are even slightly less than ourselves, like animals. Again, we can reproduce them, but as far as I know, no machine or automaton actually matches the complexity of animals. Though, I admit, I’m not that knowledgeable about these things. So, when it comes to the universe -space and time and whatever is in it- the cause of it should be greater than itself.

As for your second comment, I think what your’e implying is that the relationship between good and evil that I stated in my last post could be interchangeable anyway. And if that’s the case, then it is possible to postulate a PM, and consequently a God, that is infinitely evil. I don’t think it is possible to interchange their roles though because it’s not that simple. Let’s look at your example of a god that lacks goodness to an infinite degree, in other words a god that is infinitely evil. If you stop and think about it, do you think such a god could exist? In the end it cannot exist. And why is that? Because, and this is the insight of the Christian philosophers, evil ultimately is antithetical to existence itself. Conversely, existence ultimately is good. To exist, in and of itself, is a good, while non-existence, in and of itself, is not good, or evil. This might require some time to ruminate on (it is interesting to though haha). But think about it, if someone was made to choose between existence and non-existence, and there is no asking about what kind of existence, whether it’s good or bad, it’s just to exist or not, what would that person choose? To put it in another way, what is basically better? That there is this universe that we are currently experiencing, or if there never had been nor ever will be anything at all?

So existence is goodness and non-existence is evil. That’s why we can’t simply change the relationship. An infinitely evil PM, like you postulated, won’t even start existing. Even if it did, then it wouldn’t be the PM since, by merely existing, it shows that it still has potential to lack goodness or to be evil. It would probably destroy itself then, thus not moving anything to actuality at all.

Well anyway, hope I made sense despite the long post. 😃
 
The universe could not have existed through an infinite past. Therefore, God had to start it.

Did any event happen an infinitely long time ago? Obviously not.
But we can’t go back to infinity. At some point we must arrive at a time when there was absolutely no universe in whatever form we want to think of it.

Therefore, there had to be a God to start it all. later.
That statement is not necessarily correct, because it presumes some form of the dimension of space-time ALWAYS existed. That is not necessarily the truth.
We need to be very careful here. This is a slippery slope. Space-time is one of God’s creatures. Space-time, (see Relativity), is NOT necessarily infinite. In order to “start” something, it requires some dimension of “time” (space-time) to be in place ALREADY, in order to “begin” the creative action. The “beginning” presumes a “before”. Be sure to look carefully at advanced Physics, (or have someone explain it to you), before you come to conclusions here. The universe is not necessarily “intuitive”, as has been proven by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Theorem, and General Relativity. Peace.
 
I haven’t been on this thread for some time, but in skimming this thread, I haven’t found any formidable reply to my objection:
You never said that, but your argument rests on it. Back in post 31, you were applying the “it cannot be the cause of its own reality” argument to material things, but not to “supernatural” things:
empther;9014266:
But it is impossible that a natural thing could be the cause of the universe without itself being part of the universe! :eek: Something may have caused the universe in the form we see it now. But this natuiral ‘something’ would have been the universe before that which we see now. You can’t go back to infinity.

Therefore, the first cause has to be supernatural.
You say that it is impossible for something natural to start reality (the first universe in a potential chain of universes), yet you give god a free pass. That is called special pleading.

Now you may be tempted to justify this special pleading by simply defining god as outside of time, but this same made-up excuse could apply to a hypothetical natural universe that caused this universe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top