Fiorenza - "Gospels are not accurate biographical accounts"

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swampfox:
You are free to feel like a victim despite Church teaching to the contrary, but you are not free to change the liturgy.
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with the last few posts including confusion on words, and what they mean… this is a good example of why “converting” all the fixed meanings of the old Latin to the ever changing and confusing meanings of our English has been a change in the liturgy for the worse.
 
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Marie:
One of the greatest losses of Pre-Vatican II was respect for the office of priests and Bishops. Irritates me no end. Those who are constantly attacking them, act like a bunch of Protestants who don’t know better.
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It’s what they get for making the church more of a democracy.

I’m not saying that all is warrented. But when a Bishop or priest crosses the line in rejecting matters of the faith to support something against church teaching, he should get an earful from someone. Likewise with us lay folks.
 
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EddieArent:
It’s what they get for making the church more of a democracy.

I’m not saying that all is warrented. But when a Bishop or priest crosses the line in rejecting matters of the faith to support something against church teaching, he should get an earful from someone. Likewise with us lay folks.
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I will always have respect for the office - I do not have any respect for some of the incumbents. The pope tells us on a regular basis that we are to participate - so I do my best. I have no problem expressing my displeasure, my disappointment or criticism of specifc actions or people. The laity these days is a totally different group operating in a totally different way from pre Vat II. The availability of Catholic magaines, internet sites as well as forums and blogs all keep us as informed as we want to be.

We no longer pray, pay and obey - we participate - we critique and rightfully so. We also praise, applaud and encourage.
The trick is to keep our balance.
 
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HagiaSophia:
We no longer pray, pay and obey - we participate - we critique and rightfully so. We also praise, applaud and encourage.
The trick is to keep our balance.
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That’s the ticket…little used these days though. Feeding frenzies are the rule, not the exception.

When people start yapping, about how such and such Bishop worded and article, that is just plain wanting to lay it on. There is no purpose and no respect for the office, nor Holy Mother Church in that.

Praise and respect are still called for. So is criticism when used properly.

For the record though, the myth that Pre-Vatican lay people paid, prayed and obeyed is rediculous and a modern twist of dis-respect also. We did no such thing. I get a bit tired of hearing that line of dis-information too.

We just had better manners and seemingly, a lot better understanding of what respect was and was not than people now days. 😃 Many a flea was put in pastor so and so ear by one and all back then. But it was done with respect and in a proper attitude of correction, not whining. Vat II was not all about the liberals wanting to change the church. It was about the faithful wanting to be fed properly.
 
I was a member of a Catholic Church in Baltimore, that had a real hangup about for us “men” in creed.
One of the nuns at the parish used to cross out word “men” in every Sunday Missal she could get her hands on.
I would write in the Missal above Creed: “Real women don’t have this hang up”
 
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Sirach14:
I was a member of a Catholic Church in Baltimore, that had a real hangup about for us “men” in creed.
One of the nuns at the parish used to cross out word “men” in every Sunday Missal she could get her hands on.
I would write in the Missal above Creed: “Real women don’t have this hang up”
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😃 👍

And I once was in a parish where the priest hated (yes strong word…but true) the Magesterium and JPII. He was one of the liberals in Rome at the time of Vat II. He would remove the Popes picture from the office and put it in the trash. We would get it out and return it to it’s rightful place. Drove him bonkers that it kept coming back. We bought extra’s for times he managed to get it thrown out. 😃
 
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Sirach14:
I was a member of a Catholic Church in Baltimore, that had a real hangup about for us “men” in creed.
One of the nuns at the parish used to cross out word “men” in every Sunday Missal she could get her hands on.
I would write in the Missal above Creed: “Real women don’t have this hang up”
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You are so right
 
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swampfox:
You are free to feel like a victim despite Church teaching to the contrary, but you are not free to change the liturgy.
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And the title of a newarticle is not the liturgy.

There is no sin in entitling a newsarticle “Hallowed be Your Name”
 
+veritas+:
Hmm…

“For Us and For Our Salvation”
diocese-gal-hou.org/BishopPastorals/bishops_fiorenza_recent.asp

(Side note - interesting how our dear Archbishop has chosen to be PC and mis-quote our Creed as being “for us and for our salvation”… once again choosing to instead insult the intelligence of us women. :rolleyes: )

+veritas+
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God has no physicality… male or female…why change the bible over this inclusive stuff… God is Spirit and we are all made in His Image… wonder of wonders indeed !!

Most folks believe, have believed and will continue to believe that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening…they accept this **as truth…**however…the sun does not rise nor does it set…planet earth revolves around the sun. The certainty lies in the sun… Has education or science changed our belief in the sun ?

I am neither pre- vatican nor post-vatican…I am old enough to have known both and to appreciate what is good in each but I have to say I get put off with both side…they are doing so much damage to the Church and causing a lot of confusion for many. I try to stay centered on Jesus Christ and the love He has for us. A love that **cost **Him His very life. **This is how much I love you…love others as I have loved you… sticks in my mind. **We have a very **long **way to go !!!

There is insecurity and a lack of faith on both sides ! We have become a little too familiar with God. He is allowing our idols to fall…the clergy at every leval are human**…**the Church is not still here after 2000 years because of the folks in it…although some have been the holiest that have walked this earth…the Church exists because of Jesus Christ. Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church… that is exactly what He has done and will continue to do. Our …God in my pocket…big Daddy in the sky who loves me unconditionally…who understands… is coming to an end. The question is does He approve…we need to start asking that question and get off of ourselves. God is Immanant but also Trancendant.

Some of the stuff going on is childish,self-centered,and most of all shallow. We need to think larger and be a little afraid again ! We have become too familiar with God and need to learn humility !.. they will know that you are my deciples …by the way you love one another…love is care, concern and respect.

God Bless You,
Shalom,
Catherine
 
Catherine S:
I am old enough to have known both and to appreciate what is good in each but I have to say I get put off with both side…they are doing so much damage to the Church and causing a lot of confusion for many. I try to stay centered on Jesus Christ and the love He has for us.
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:amen:
 
Well said, Catherine. I agree wholeheartedly! And I am also old enough to have known both sides.

Peace,
Linda
 
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mlchance:
Not at all. Certain select people have been secretly appointed by mysterious Vatican officials to prowl the internet searching for statements by bishops and other priests that don’t measure up to arcane but completely just standards which most people aren’t privy to.

Duh.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Our Bishops are no more perfect than the Bishops of the early Christian era. Most of the early Christian heresies were raised by Bishops, so what is new now?

What I do not like is that even on the parish level, there are people who will jump up and down expecting a homily every morning at Mass, and they will write letters to the Bishop if it is not happening.

Not one of us is perfect so why do we put our priests on pedestals setting them up for severe falls?

If you want to know, I do not like the Bishop of my diocese. I cannot stand the new Cathedral that has been built to replace the one that was burnt down. It has bad acoustics, and the way in which it has been set up can cause some people a lot of problems with their necks, and other ligaments of the body. I will not go into all of the detail about my reasons for disliking him, but you can be sure that slinging off at a priest within the diocese who is a Biblical scholar is not a very nice trait.

MaggieOH
 
Catherine S. said:
God has no physicality… male or female…why change the bible over this inclusive stuff… God is Spirit and we are all made in His Image… wonder of wonders indeed !!

Most folks believe, have believed and will continue to believe that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening…they accept this **as truth…**however…the sun does not rise nor does it set…planet earth revolves around the sun. The certainty lies in the sun… Has education or science changed our belief in the sun ?

I am neither pre- vatican nor post-vatican…I am old enough to have known both and to appreciate what is good in each but I have to say I get put off with both side…they are doing so much damage to the Church and causing a lot of confusion for many. I try to stay centered on Jesus Christ and the love He has for us. A love that **cost **Him His very life. **This is how much I love you…love others as I have loved you… sticks in my mind. **We have a very **long **way to go !!!

There is insecurity and a lack of faith on both sides ! We have become a little too familiar with God. He is allowing our idols to fall…the clergy at every leval are human**…**the Church is not still here after 2000 years because of the folks in it…although some have been the holiest that have walked this earth…the Church exists because of Jesus Christ. Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church… that is exactly what He has done and will continue to do. Our …God in my pocket…big Daddy in the sky who loves me unconditionally…who understands… is coming to an end. The question is does He approve…we need to start asking that question and get off of ourselves. God is Immanant but also Trancendant.

Some of the stuff going on is childish,self-centered,and most of all shallow. We need to think larger and be a little afraid again ! We have become too familiar with God and need to learn humility !.. they will know that you are my deciples …by the way you love one another…love is care, concern and respect.

God Bless You,
Shalom,
Catherine
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Bravo Catherine,

I agree with every word that you have stated. Like you I have known both systems. I like the post Vatican II system and I continue to want to remain in that system. However, I believe that we have no right to act holier than thou and to waste precious time upon being angry over issues that are not all that important in the long run.

It is time that people stepped away from the politics, it is time for the feminists to give us a break over the inclusive language issue. It is time they recognized that our language is much more all-encompassing than they want to allow. It is not just the changes that they want to make to the Scriptural text that is offensive, it is the other changes to language that really is ridiculous (like calling a female who plays a part on the stage an actor instead of actress. Why not say Thespian instead).

:amen:

MaggieOH
 
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MaggieOH:
Bravo Catherine,

I agree with every word that you have stated. Like you I have known both systems. I like the post Vatican II system and I continue to want to remain in that system. However, I believe that we have no right to act holier than thou and to waste precious time upon being angry over issues that are not all that important in the long run.

It is time that people stepped away from the politics, it is time for the feminists to give us a break over the inclusive language issue. It is time they recognized that our language is much more all-encompassing than they want to allow. It is not just the changes that they want to make to the Scriptural text that is offensive, it is the other changes to language that really is ridiculous (like calling a female who plays a part on the stage an actor instead of actress. Why not say Thespian instead).

:amen:

MaggieOH
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Hello Maggie…I would like to share with you a great gift that was given to me during Advent of 2003. It came in a very round about way…I was searching for an article on my computer that I wanted some one else to have **but **I came upon…

**The Apostolic Letter…Mulieris Dignitatem of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul 11 on the Dignity and Vocation of Women…**I printed it out…not something I do very often…I had heard others comment on this Apostolic Letter and I had also read articles regarding it…**so wondered when I hit the print button why I was doing this…**I am happy to say it turned out to be **pure gift **and my heart was touched in a very profound way.

Late one evening in stillness while knelling before my nativity set to pray… this Apostolic Letter crossed my mind and I knew that I should read it. I went to my desk and picked it up…went to the kitchen and read ! It truely opened my eyes and my heart to see and to understand** much more deeply** what it means to be a woman…what it ment when God choose Mary… a woman…to bring His plan of salvation to all of humanity… **He had always choosen men in the past **to bring His word to the world. Mary was to bring the Living Word into the world…God placed His trust in Mary…a woman. This is much deeper than it appears…deeper than the fact that only a woman can carry a child and bring that child into the world…deeper than the great holiness of Mary and her motherhood to us all. God was raising woman…high above the way that the world may have seen them in those days or may see them even in our day. A deep and quiet…all will be well and all will be well joy… filled my heart. God truely blessed all women on that Holy Night…He restored us to the dignity and to the beauty that was ours from the beginning… corrected all the misconceptions about womanhood. Giving us through Mary that dignity that He had always intended for us and He did it while giving the world …all men and women their Savior… Jesus Christ.

Pope Paul in this wonderful Letter is trying to share this with us.** We are** liberated…we are loved…the world without the feminine heart loses direction. Man without woman or woman without Man does not work. Women have a role to play in God’s plan that is beyond our total comprehension. Mary said “yes” and we too must say “yes” as she did… or we can say “no” as Eve said “no” . There will be no real peace in families…in the Church…or in the world until there is recognition of this between men and women.** They must work together to bring the Love of Christ into the world daily. I think every woman needs to spend time in prayer and in stillness… than read this document**. It is difficult to share with others how illuminating this was for me. We have been given so much and** much is needed from us**. God had a plan in the beginning and He has a plan now…we can not say no again. We have been given more than we need to cope with any of the issues in the Church… to work in such a way as to bear much fruit. We have to keep our sights on what God wants apart from the sufferings of the past and the sufferings of the future. The western world uses many women in an ugly way today…they are used as objects in many parts of the world but this will never change apart from the grace of God.We are who we are and have dignity because of God…the rest will fall into place when we see who we are in Him and act on that alone.
God bless you Maggie,
Shalom,
Catherine
 
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