Fire Emblem: Fates for Nintendo 3DS to include same-sex marriage

[minion]

So, I heard the new Fire Emblem game coming out supports gay relationships.

mynintendonews.com/2015/06/24/fire-emblem-fates-introduces-same-sex-marriage-to-the-series/

Should I take this as a middle finger from Nintendo for opposing gay marriage?

As a Catholic, am I obligated to refrain from purchasing the game? Or any Nintendo products?

It’s not like somehow shoving politically correct themes in my face (though odious and obnoxious) will change my religion, or redefine my principles. But, I do wonder at what point I give up certain entertainment, when compared to the level of objectionable content in the game. I mean, it wouldn’t be the first time I gave up a game series (for example, I used to like the Shin megami tensei series, but gave up the games when it finally began to dawn on me that figures from various religions, including Christianity, were being demonized, and reduced, essentially, to pokemon, just to give “edginess” to their stupid story).

It’s kind of too bad, I was starting to enjoy Fire Emblem: Awakening. All I know for sure is once I see mainstream games start supporting abortion, I’m most definitely done.

 

[Kurisu35712]

So, I heard the new Fire Emblem game coming out supports gay relationships.

mynintendonews.com/2015/06/24/fire-emblem-fates-introduces-same-sex-marriage-to-the-series/

Should I take this as a middle finger from Nintendo for opposing gay marriage?

As a Catholic, am I obligated to refrain from purchasing the game? Or any Nintendo products?

It’s not like somehow shoving politically correct themes in my face (though odious and obnoxious) will change my religion, or redefine my principles. But, I do wonder at what point I give up certain entertainment, when compared to the level of objectionable content in the game. I mean, it wouldn’t be the first time I gave up a game series (for example, I used to like the Shin megami tensei series, but gave up the games when it finally began to dawn on me that figures from various religions, including Christianity, were being demonized, and reduced, essentially, to pokemon, just to give “edginess” to their stupid story).

It’s kind of too bad, I was starting to enjoy Fire Emblem: Awakening. All I know for sure is once I see mainstream games start supporting abortion, I’m most definitely done.

I don’t think Catholic doctrine prohibits you from playing a video game in any case, just as we aren’t forbidden from reading certain books just because of the subject matter. It’s a case by case kind of thing, with the individual being responsible for what they can and can’t handle, and what subject matters they will and will not tolerate.

At the end of the day, if you feel like it truly goes against your moral fiber and will prevent you from enjoying the game, don’t play it. In my opinion, as it’s Fire Emblem and the playable character is a customizable one, it’s a non-issue. If you don’t want gay marriage represented in the game, all you need to do is not have a male playable character marry a male NPC. Knowing Fire Emblem, your available marriage options will be up in the 20’s for one gender alone anyway.

My personal opinion, this wouldn’t prevent me from buying, playing, and enjoying the game. I’d get it regardless, Fire Emblem is by far one of my favorite series. If the game was the type to force such a relationship onto the player, it’d be one thing, but it’s so customizable and as it is based entirely on the player’s choices, it’s really an irrelevant feature in my opinion. If you don’t want gay marriage in your game’s story, don’t do it, the game won’t care and likely won’t mention it, much less stop you from progressing. Furthermore, it’s a fantasy universe invented by Japan, which isn’t a predominantly Christian nation, much less a Catholic one. It would surprise me if they were adamant about opposing same-sex marriage.

The point at which you give up on a series is something you alone can determine. This isn’t the line for me, personally. The option is there if I want it, not shoved in my face. I’m not being forced to give a character an abortion to progress. That would likely be a line in my case. It’s a video game, it’s purpose is entertainment, in Fire Emblem’s case, a good storyline with engaging characters. If potential gay marriage makes it unenjoyable, don’t buy it. No point playing something that isn’t fun.

 

[minion]

hmm, so you don’t think you’re way of thinking is a bit…lax?

For a game company to present something like gay marriage (especially in the current political climate) and present it as an acceptable choice, is to say your Catholic belief is morally wrong. Not only that, but Fire Emblem is typically geared to younger teens who are more impressionable.

It seems to me that continuing to support the series financially is to reward the company for directly/indirectly opposing your religious belief.

Am I getting something wrong? It seems to me to be a matter of personal integrity.

 

[Kurisu35712]

hmm, so you don’t think you’re way of thinking is a bit…lax?

For a game company to present something like gay marriage (especially in the current political climate) and present it as an acceptable choice, is to say your Catholic belief is morally wrong. Not only that, but Fire Emblem is typically geared to younger teens who are more impressionable.

It seems to me that continuing to support the series financially is to reward the company for directly/indirectly opposing your religious belief.

Am I getting something wrong? It seems to me to be a matter of personal integrity.

Lax in comparison to what, though? Measuring the morality of giving financial support to a game that does not prohibit same-sex relationships against my beliefs as a Catholic, I suppose my way of thinking could be too lenient. In that way, I am indirectly supporting a view that opposes my view of morality, or at least supporting a view that does not support the teachings of the Church.

But honestly, I think the context and gravity of the issue is paramount here. The game will not force me to put a character into a same-sex relationship, much less a marriage. The game will not punish me for doing so. It will not reward me for doing so, at least no more than it would for a heterosexual relationship. I’m assuming either way, the player character’s relationship only has a nominal effect on the overall plot. I would imagine that no relationship is also a possible option.

For one, there are far more objectively immoral games and stories out there. There are quite a few games that one could consider to be directly anti-Catholic. If I buy this game, am I really lending financial support to people opposed to my beliefs? If so, what other media and producers and companies and brands am I required to essentially boycott? I honestly don’t think Nintendo is out there trying to evangelize people to the cause of same-sex marriage. They’re a video game company. Influential, yes, but they aren’t evangelizing a cause, they’re trying to sell as many games as possible. They offered customizable characters, so they don’t restrict those characters’ relationship options.

At what point *must *we draw the line, or is that up to us as rational individuals? Ben & Jerry’s ice cream renamed their cookie dough flavor in reference to the recent Supreme Court ruling. Am I doctrinally or even implicitly required to now no longer buy their brand of ice cream?

Should I have never read Game of Thrones because it contains immoral sexual conduct, and has themes that can be interpreted as anti-Catholic? For myself, I decided that no, I can recognize that it is a work of fantasy and it is not harming my spiritual life, just providing me entertainment. I don’t agree with the characters’ immoral choices, just as I don’t agree with a lot of peoples’ choices in real life. But the presence of those themes doesn’t lead me to feel it is necessary to refuse to read them. I wanted to read them, despite some objectionable themes. I like dragons and dramatic storylines and reading about characters fighting ice zombies with swords.

That is not the case for everyone. I would honestly say that there are people who actively should not read Game of Thrones for those two reasons specifically. Many Saints would not have read Game of Thrones because they would have considered it to be an unnecessary distraction from their devotion to God and service to humanity. I can honestly admit that I am not at their level of faith.

TL;DR: I don’t think you’re wrong. If it harms your spiritual life or you think it harms the teachings of the Church to buy the game, don’t buy it. If that’s the case, I admire your earnestness in support of the Church. I just disagree that the new Fire Emblem is an attack on my beliefs, be it direct or indirect. I find the question to be subjective.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

I’m not sure I would be concerned so much about the future inclusion of Sam, but would be more concerned about the use of magic currently in the game.

“Magic and certain melee weapons can be used either from a distance or in melee range.”
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Emblem

 

[chris62]

Send these people a message.
After all, all that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing…
I forgot who said that.

 

[minion]

Lax in comparison to what, though? Measuring the morality of giving financial support to a game that does not prohibit same-sex relationships against my beliefs as a Catholic, I suppose my way of thinking could be too lenient. In that way, I am indirectly supporting a view that opposes my view of morality, or at least supporting a view that does not support the teachings of the Church.

But honestly, I think the context and gravity of the issue is paramount here. The game will not force me to put a character into a same-sex relationship, much less a marriage. The game will not punish me for doing so. It will not reward me for doing so, at least no more than it would for a heterosexual relationship. I’m assuming either way, the player character’s relationship only has a nominal effect on the overall plot. I would imagine that no relationship is also a possible option.

For one, there are far more objectively immoral games and stories out there. There are quite a few games that one could consider to be directly anti-Catholic. If I buy this game, am I really lending financial support to people opposed to my beliefs? If so, what other media and producers and companies and brands am I required to essentially boycott? I honestly don’t think Nintendo is out there trying to evangelize people to the cause of same-sex marriage. They’re a video game company. Influential, yes, but they aren’t evangelizing a cause, they’re trying to sell as many games as possible. They offered customizable characters, so they don’t restrict those characters’ relationship options.

At what point *must *we draw the line, or is that up to us as rational individuals? Ben & Jerry’s ice cream renamed their cookie dough flavor in reference to the recent Supreme Court ruling. Am I doctrinally or even implicitly required to now no longer buy their brand of ice cream?

Should I have never read Game of Thrones because it contains immoral sexual conduct, and has themes that can be interpreted as anti-Catholic? For myself, I decided that no, I can recognize that it is a work of fantasy and it is not harming my spiritual life, just providing me entertainment. I don’t agree with the characters’ immoral choices, just as I don’t agree with a lot of peoples’ choices in real life. But the presence of those themes doesn’t lead me to feel it is necessary to refuse to read them. I wanted to read them, despite some objectionable themes. I like dragons and dramatic storylines and reading about characters fighting ice zombies with swords.

That is not the case for everyone. I would honestly say that there are people who actively should not read Game of Thrones for those two reasons specifically. Many Saints would not have read Game of Thrones because they would have considered it to be an unnecessary distraction from their devotion to God and service to humanity. I can honestly admit that I am not at their level of faith.

So for you, if I understand correctly, as long as an objectionable element in a game is “optional,” you have no problem with such content in a game. Despite it as being presented as acceptable and opposed to your religious beliefs. Or at the least, your (and possibly my) like of fantasy overwhelms religious sensibilities.

Gay marriage is kind of an easy one, considering popular opinion lately, but would your opinion be the same for the following “optional content” (while theoretically being presented as acceptable by the game developers)?

1. Child sacrifice
2. Abortion
3. Polygamy/Adultery
4. Suicide
5. Murder of a particular group of believers/ideology (christian/jew/buddhist/atheist/nazi/republican/democrat)

If you find any of the above as unacceptable optional content, how did you delineate what was finally unacceptable and withdraw support from a game?

TL;DR: I don’t think you’re wrong. If it harms your spiritual life or you think it harms the teachings of the Church to buy the game, don’t buy it. If that’s the case, I admire your earnestness in support of the Church. I just disagree that the new Fire Emblem is an attack on my beliefs, be it direct or indirect. I find the question to be subjective.

Well, let’s say the games don’t affect my/your spiritual life. Do you think financially supporting/rewarding game developers for including such content would harm other people’s spiritual life other than your own? From the comments in the link I posted, it certainly seems to validate their pro-gay marriage position, and regard others against gay-marriage as bigoted homophobes, and thus (from a Catholic viewpoint) harm their own spiritual life.

Also, I’d imagine a priest caught playing Fire Emblem: Fates, and picking the gay marriage route, would cause scandal to believers, and ammunition for pro-gay marriage activists to highlight the hypocrisies of the church?

 

[xNoOnex]

If its any consolation, while there are gay options, their not really “PC”. The gay (male) character supposedly “enjoys” people’s suffering (so he’s a villain character) and the lesbian is a crazy stalker. So it’s not like their really saying “homosexuals are normal, well adjusted people”.

Gay marriage is kind of an easy one, considering popular opinion lately, but would your opinion be the same for the following “optional content” (while theoretically being presented as acceptable by the game developers)?

1. Child sacrifice
2. Abortion
3. Polygamy/Adultery
4. Suicide
5. Murder of a particular group of believers/ideology (christian/jew/buddhist/atheist/nazi/republican/democrat)

1.) So long as it was obviously written as the villain option, I wouldn’t necessarily have an issue with this. It could be a nice heel-face turn opportunity for my character. I’d be a little uneasy if they forced it upon me, but if it was optional, it wouldn’t bother me as a plot device.

2.) I can’t think of a single case were abortion would come up in a game.

3.) If its not portrayed positively, sure.

4.) See above.

5.) There’s countless games that already do that. While most modern shooters have you killing Arabs these days, once upon a time, you killed Nazis and Russians almost exclusively. Yay, for propaganda games. And again, if its clear you’re on a villain route, I really don’t see an issue.

 

[Kurisu35712]

So for you, if I understand correctly, as long as an objectionable element in a game is “optional,” you have no problem with such content in a game. Despite it as being presented as acceptable and opposed to your religious beliefs. Or at the least, your (and possibly my) like of fantasy overwhelms religious sensibilities.

Not because it’s optional, so much as it’s nonessential and has no true bearing on the game itself. Knowing Fire Emblem, the option will only even come up if you actively pursue it, and for quite a while at that. I’m aware that the God of War series, based on Greek mythology, has a focus on sex with multiple people in several cutscenes. These aren’t side events that can be ignored, but actual plot elements that are unavoidable, if I’m not mistaken. I’ve never played it for that reason. In that instance, the element isn’t just there if one wants to pursue it but will never be brought up otherwise, it is an unavoidable event. I consider “objectionable content” to be a subjective criteria unique to each individual game. Context is particularly important.

Gay marriage is kind of an easy one, considering popular opinion lately, but would your opinion be the same for the following “optional content” (while theoretically being presented as acceptable by the game developers)?

1. Child sacrifice
2. Abortion
3. Polygamy/Adultery
4. Suicide
5. Murder of a particular group of believers/ideology (christian/jew/buddhist/atheist/nazi/republican/democrat)

If you find any of the above as unacceptable optional content, how did you delineate what was finally unacceptable and withdraw support from a game?

Entirely on a case-by-case basis. If the point of the game is to perform abortions, that is unacceptable. If abortion serves as a contentious plot point that brings into question the morality of the issue, that is a different story. Am I playing a horror game? Is this a JRPG? First person shooter? Themes that would be standard for one genre are completely unacceptable in others. It depends on the game and the creator’s intentions in making it in the first place. I doubt Fire Emblem is an active attempt by Nintendo to push gay marriage onto teenagers. It’s a tactical RPG, not a dating simulator.

Well, let’s say the games don’t affect my/your spiritual life. Do you think financially supporting/rewarding game developers for including such content would harm other people’s spiritual life other than your own? From the comments in the link I posted, it certainly seems to validate their pro-gay marriage position, and regard others against gay-marriage as bigoted homophobes, and thus (from a Catholic viewpoint) harm their own spiritual life.

I’m of the opinion that everyone has a responsibility to determine whether they can handle media for themselves. I do not think my decision to purchase a video game will harm other people’s spiritual lives. Gay marriage in a video game would not be their most significant problem if such a decision did affect them. Likewise, my refusal to purchase the game would not stop it from being made.

Was Nintendo calling those who do not support gay marriage bigots and homophobes, or were those the commenters on an internet article? Using internet comments sections as a platform to voice concern over gay marriage frankly only serves to alienate the very people the Church is trying to bring to truth, in my experience. If you make those in support of gay marriage out to be some kind of enemy, they will never listen to you. People take advice from their friends, not from people they regard as enemies. Criticizing Fire Emblem to push against gay marriage will only convince more people that Catholics are the hateful bigots they’ve always been told they were. We should pick our battles. Frankly, this one will not end in support for the Catholic lifestyle by those who don’t already agree with it.

And unless you’re honestly just looking for me to clarify what I’m saying with some of your questions, I’m not one of the people you need to convince. I’m no cafeteria Catholic, I just think that this would be a nitpicky reason not to play a video game. If you don’t see video games as a complete waste of time, as I know some people do, I’m really not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. I simply disagree with your premise. I do not think this is a harmful video game.

If you’re just asking me these things to get a better idea of where I’m coming from with my responses, I’ll gladly explain as best I can. But I came to this thread hoping to give my own perspective as advice, and if advice isn’t what you were looking for, I wasn’t really looking to get into another video game debate on this forum.

 

[minion]

Not because it’s optional, so much as it’s nonessential and has no true bearing on the game itself. Knowing Fire Emblem, the option will only even come up if you actively pursue it, and for quite a while at that. I’m aware that the God of War series, based on Greek mythology, has a focus on sex with multiple people in several cutscenes. These aren’t side events that can be ignored, but actual plot elements that are unavoidable, if I’m not mistaken. I’ve never played it for that reason. In that instance, the element isn’t just there if one wants to pursue it but will never be brought up otherwise, it is an unavoidable event. I consider “objectionable content” to be a subjective criteria unique to each individual game. Context is particularly important.

It’s not really “non-essential” with no true bearing on the game. It can be argued that having more choices just means more depth in creating a custom avatar. But really, the fact that same-sex marriage is even an option means something - the character you play as is effectively…bi-sexual. In that, you have no choice in the matter, unless you wish to avoid playing the next Fire Emblem altogether, just like you avoided playing God of War due to the lecherous main character.

Entirely on a case-by-case basis. If the point of the game is to perform abortions, that is unacceptable. If abortion serves as a contentious plot point that brings into question the morality of the issue, that is a different story. Am I playing a horror game? Is this a JRPG? First person shooter? Themes that would be standard for one genre are completely unacceptable in others. It depends on the game and the creator’s intentions in making it in the first place. I doubt Fire Emblem is an active attempt by Nintendo to push gay marriage onto teenagers. It’s a tactical RPG, not a dating simulator.

Just assume in that hypothetical scenario that all the aforementioned optional acts were presented by the game developers are perfectly morally acceptable options. Does that fact that they are “non-essential” to completing the game change your objection to the game? As opposed to something required by the game to proceed? Why would something being included as “optional” make a difference?

I’m of the opinion that everyone has a responsibility to determine whether they can handle media for themselves. I do not think my decision to purchase a video game will harm other people’s spiritual lives. Gay marriage in a video game would not be their most significant problem if such a decision did affect them. Likewise, my refusal to purchase the game would not stop it from being made.

Was Nintendo calling those who do not support gay marriage bigots and homophobes, or were those the commenters on an internet article? Using internet comments sections as a platform to voice concern over gay marriage frankly only serves to alienate the very people the Church is trying to bring to truth, in my experience. If you make those in support of gay marriage out to be some kind of enemy, they will never listen to you. People take advice from their friends, not from people they regard as enemies. Criticizing Fire Emblem to push against gay marriage will only convince more people that Catholics are the hateful bigots they’ve always been told they were. We should pick our battles. Frankly, this one will not end in support for the Catholic lifestyle by those who don’t already agree with it.

The point is not to prevent the game from being made. More of what I’m asking is what the correct response to it should be.

What Nintendo supports, is to logically be against its opposite. You may not consider gay-marriage activists/supporters as enemies, but they certainly regard us as such. I was just casually playing Fire Emblem: Awakening, having a good time, googled something, and next thing I know, I run into social media sites blasting in my face same-sex marriage stuff, and just how awful and bigoted I am for opposing it. And the weapon they used to bang my head with it happened to be Fire Emblem: Fates. I was not looking for a fight.

One thing…I do find this comment a bit strange, really, the church has always proselytized to its enemies…who else would need it? Isn’t that kind of the point? Even your friends and family can become enemies.

And unless you’re honestly just looking for me to clarify what I’m saying with some of your questions, I’m not one of the people you need to convince. I’m no cafeteria Catholic, I just think that this would be a nitpicky reason not to play a video game. If you don’t see video games as a complete waste of time, as I know some people do, I’m really not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. I simply disagree with your premise. I do not think this is a harmful video game.

If you’re just asking me these things to get a better idea of where I’m coming from with my responses, I’ll gladly explain as best I can. But I came to this thread hoping to give my own perspective as advice, and if advice isn’t what you were looking for, I wasn’t really looking to get into another video game debate on this forum.

You could say I’m looking for a “soundboard.” Is continuing to play and financially support games opposing my religious beliefs a spiritually weak position, or am I being overscrupulous? Keep in mind you’re talking to someone who deliberately quit playing games for a while due to frustration with the gaming industry, and planned to make it permanent. Recently, I’ve been drawn back, and Fire Emblem: Awakening was given to me as a gift. But life can’t be happy-happy-fun-fun all the time, and if I think the games are harmful, I have no problem giving them up again.

I appreciate your time and feedback. I have no intention of giving offense, but when presenting an opposing position, it’s naturally going to offend.

 

[Kurisu35712]

It’s not really “non-essential” with no true bearing on the game. It can be argued that having more choices just means more depth in creating a custom avatar. But really, the fact that same-sex marriage is even an option means something - the character you play as is effectively…bi-sexual. In that, you have no choice in the matter, unless you wish to avoid playing the next Fire Emblem altogether, just like you avoided playing God of War due to the lecherous main character.

Honestly, the main character being canonically bisexual wouldn’t be a problem for me. I’m not sure where you were going with that point. The fact remains that your character is not bisexual if you do not play the game in such a way that would result in those options being presented. You’ve played Fire Emblem games before. Getting two characters to the point at which relationship options open up takes not only an intense amount of effort, but you have to actively plan for that result from the point you get that character.

Furthermore, lechery is a sin. Bisexuality is not. Nor is homosexuality for that matter.

Just assume in that hypothetical scenario that all the aforementioned optional acts were presented by the game developers are perfectly morally acceptable options. Does that fact that they are “non-essential” to completing the game change your objection to the game? As opposed to something required by the game to proceed? Why would something being included as “optional” make a difference?

Because in making it optional as opposed to being required, the game developers are showing that, while they may hold a particular position, understand that not all of their players hold the same one, and thus offer alternative options for people who would be uncomfortable with one of them. If all of those things you listed were presented as morally acceptable options, I would not play the game. But, say the game was a Final Fantasy installment regarding number 5 on your list. You have the option to either fight for the side that is being oppressed or the side that is trying to exterminate the other. Generally, choosing to fight for the oppressors results in either the bad ending or an actual game over at a certain point. As NoOne stated earlier, homosexuality is obviously not represented as a perfectly normal option in this Fire Emblem installment.

As to why an element being optional makes a difference, that makes all the difference. I am not being forced to participate in something I disagree with. If I do not disagree with it, I may choose to participate. If I do, I am able to refrain.

The point is not to prevent the game from being made. More of what I’m asking is what the correct response to it should be.

What Nintendo supports, is to logically be against its opposite. You may not consider gay-marriage activists/supporters as enemies, but they certainly regard us as such. I was just casually playing Fire Emblem: Awakening, having a good time, googled something, and next thing I know, I run into social media sites blasting in my face same-sex marriage stuff, and just how awful and bigoted I am for opposing it. And the weapon they used to bang my head with it happened to be Fire Emblem: Fates. I was not looking for a fight.

For one thing, I don’t care what other people think of me or my being Catholic. They are as unable to change that as they are able to change my sexuality or my liking chocolate. Whether they consider enemies, however, does not determine whether I think the same of them. If they consider me an enemy, I simply consider them to be mistaken. And if they regard us as the enemy, they simply need the truth of the Church even more. I do not give other people’s opinions consent to offend me. I don’t give other people consent to offend me. As a result, they don’t offend me. If I’m called a bigot, and it isn’t true, I’m not offended because I’m capable of understanding that the person calling me such is feeling hurt and persecuted. Allowing that cycle to continue does nothing to solve it.

One thing…I do find this comment a bit strange, really, the church has always proselytized to its enemies…who else would need it? Isn’t that kind of the point? Even your friends and family can become enemies.

There is a distinction you missed in this. The Church has always proselytized to people who consider her and enemy. Those people are not enemies of the Church. They are, like the individual members of the Church itself, sinners who are in need of the healing love of God. Our mission as Catholics is not to consider the world an enemy that needs conquering, but to understand that when others hurt us, it is because they are hurt, and it is our mission to help them.

You could say I’m looking for a “soundboard.” Is continuing to play and financially support games opposing my religious beliefs a spiritually weak position, or am I being overscrupulous? Keep in mind you’re talking to someone who deliberately quit playing games for a while due to frustration with the gaming industry, and planned to make it permanent. Recently, I’ve been drawn back, and Fire Emblem: Awakening was given to me as a gift. But life can’t be happy-happy-fun-fun all the time, and if I think the games are harmful, I have no problem giving them up again.

If I were to refuse to play Fire Emblem for this reason, it would be overscrupulous for me. But that is because I am aware of my own spiritual state and I understand what I can handle in fiction, as well as because of my own way of handling things I may find objectionable. If you believe the best course of action for you is to give up video games, then that is what you should do. That is not something I need to do myself.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I had to split this because I ended up going over the character limit.

I appreciate your time and feedback. I have no intention of giving offense, but when presenting an opposing position, it’s naturally going to offend.

It’s feedback I’m happy to give. I wouldn’t come here if I thought it were a waste of time. I wasn’t offended by any of your remarks, just confused by where you were coming from.