Firebombing of Dresden during World War II

  • Thread starter Thread starter SeanF1989
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In-depth research is required to answer this question, As a long-time, amateur, World War II aviation historian, here is my perspective based on what facts have been released. It was quite late in the war when this occurred. Dresden did have some militarily valuable targets, but it was also a place chosen by many refugees. A desire for revenge by the British for V-1 and V-2 attacks was also a factor. To create a firestorm like this requires certain weather conditions, and there is evidence that the British and Americans were aware of this. It is unclear if the date for the bombing was chosen because local weather conditions were right or by coincidence.

However, bombing accuracy was still relatively poor and German flak quite effective. So the idea of attacking Dresden like this with carpet bombing is not really an accurate way to look at it. At best, a mixture of explosive and incendiary bombs were used, if not mostly the incendiary type. Bombs that cause explosions cause much fewer fires unless they hit a fuel depot or ammunition storage area.

To give you an example: German factories often had fake outer walls that could take the concussion effects of a bomb exploding nearby. These walls were usually not repaired so that when Allied reconnaissance aircraft took photos after the bombing to assess damage, those examining the photos would conclude that the factory sustained major to severe damage. The other problem Allied planners had in early 1945 was that much of German manufacturing and assembly had moved underground or relocated to remote locations. V-2 rocket assembly was hidden under a mountain.

I think this could be classified as a war crime. After bombing the majority of the area and perhaps hitting a few military targets, the Allies had the luxury of returning again and again, without having to use incendiaries. The refugees would have either fled or some may have stayed.

This compared with the bombing of the Ploesti oil fields. The oil storage tanks were surrounded by concrete walls, and a lack of precision bombing from high altitude meant Allied bombers had to fly low, making them easier targets for the German flak defending the area. This is not just a hindsight issue, because military planners at the time would talk to scientists and engineers about what it would take to destroy a particular type of target.

Peace,
Ed
 
I am not up on all the history (nor did I read the link) but:

Catechism

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.
This is correct. The Church has never approved the systematic bombardment of civilian targets. Both sides committed atrocities in World War II, as both sides always do in any war ; it is the inevitable accompaniment of war, and the reason that the Popes have gone to such lengths to plead for peace.

Much ink has been spilt over the question of Dresden. On balance it seems to me that it fulfills the definition of a war crime. An unarmed city of such limited strategic importance that it didn’t even observe a blackout, filled with refugees and in the final stages of the war when the outcome was a forgone conclusion. The attempts to justify it which I have read don’t strike me as very persuasive.
 
Necessary. Yes.

Nice. No.

But it wasn’t a “nice” war.
There’s nothing necessary about bombing raids where intent is to kill civilians be it Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc. but war is not understandable. If you’ve seen my posts on Hiroshima & Nagasaki, then you know that during WW2 both sides believed that by bombing civilians, the other side would surrender. Dresden, Hiroshima & Nagasaki continued what had been going on for years. With Hiroshima & Nagasaki, yes the atom bombings did end the war but the war could’ve ended with fewer civilian deaths & Hiroshima & Nagasaki’s victims are innocent. Dresden bombing didn’t end the war, but again as long as wars have been with us, those who don’t want part of the war, often end up being the victims.
 
I believe it was a war crime. One cannot justify the mass murder of civilians on the basis that the leadership of there country is evil.
 
Not a Catholic yet, but its a war crime. The city had no real strategic value, and was targeted for maximum civilian casualties anyway. The Allies spared it bombing (as they did Hiroshima and Nagasaki-like Dresden the citizens thought their beautiful cities were being spared to serve as a base for the occupying Allied forces) to lull civilians into thinking it was safe so more would refugees would flock there.

its worth noting the brains behind this, Air Marshall Harris, head of the RAF bomber command had a list of 50 or so more cities he wanted to incinerate.
When you go to Church today, take a second to thank GOD that there are people who are willing to sacrifice their life to protect you from bad-guys like the Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Communist Russia, and Muslim Taliban ---- so that you can sit in your warm and comfy chair and criticize those who protect you and your family.
 
We can also pray that those who deliberately dropped bombs on noncombatants, regardless of what type of government they lived under, will repent before they go to meet there maker.
 
We can also pray that those who deliberately dropped bombs on noncombatants, regardless of what type of government they lived under, will repent before they go to meet there maker.
Those who deliberately dropped the bombs were mere soldiers. They were not privy to the reasons.
The ones who are more guilty are those who make such decisions - the ones in the know.

The ones with the most guilt are those who force war upon another - or - force ANY kind of iniquity upon their neighbor.

Peace
James
 
When you go to Church today, take a second to thank GOD that there are people who are willing to sacrifice their life to protect you from bad-guys like the Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Communist Russia, and Muslim Taliban ---- so that you can sit in your warm and comfy chair and criticize those who protect you and your family.
Agreed.

GKC
 
We can also pray that those who deliberately dropped bombs on noncombatants, regardless of what type of government they lived under, will repent before they go to meet there maker.
I would suggest you pray for all of those in our Armed Services. They often live, and make life-and-death decisions, in morally grey area that few Americans/Westerners can comprehend.
 
quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/George.Orwell.Quote.705F

George Orwell Quote

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night
because rough men stand ready
to do violence on their behalf."


by:
George Orwell
[Eric Arthur Blair] (1903-1950) British author

Reader comments about this quote:

A country with a high standard of living, rimmed with long accessible borders, blessed with freedom of movement and supportive of individual autonomy is a target for those whose beliefs center on a more restrictive society. “Rough men” stand between all of this country and those who would have it differently.

The quote is attributed to George Orwell, but the actual author is unknown. Still though, it is accurate!!

I recently finished Lt.Ilario Pantano’s book “Warlord, No better friend, no worse enemy”. You may recall that Pantano hit the front pages having allegedly murdered two Iraqi detainees. The Marine Corps cleared him of all charges, but his career was ruined. As he described the current conflict in Iraq from the level of a Marine grunt, this quote struck home.
 
Monti,

In reference to the “Reader comment”…
A country with a high standard of living, rimmed with long accessible borders, blessed with freedom of movement and supportive of individual autonomy is a target for those whose beliefs center on a more restrictive society. “Rough men” stand between all of this country and those who would have it differently.
the phrase, “supportive of individual autonomy”, caught my eye given the recent news we have had about the Government trying to force Church employers to offer insurance that includes abortion coverage…Just the latest round of attacks on freedom of religion/freedom of conscience AND therefore an attack on the the autonomy of the individual.

Yes, there are “Rough men” standing guard…and looking outward…but the more dangerous enemy is often within.

As Pogo said many years ago…“We have met the enemy and he is us.”…

Peace
James
 
Its very easy to judge teh actions of those who lived years before us and had a terrible choice to make.

Was it neccessary? I don’t know, but I’d say it was a terrible war with terrible consquences, and even worse consquences if the Allies lost. Did that make it okay? It’s no good that innocent civilians died, but really, as cold as this is sounds, its a numbers game. Incinerate one German city. Or loose teh whole war.

Could they have done it another way? Maybe, I wasn’t there. But we’re talking about generals and men knowledgable in stratergy, maybe they couldn’t see any other way, maybe they tried to think of something but couldn’t come up with anything.

But what happened has happened, and those responsible, I think honestly beleived they had no other choice. Was it moral? It was war. It was horrible. Perhaps they did choose the lesser of two evils.

No war is a merry skip through a field of flowers.

I leave the judgements to God, because only He knows the whole story; but I do tend to side on the fact, that given what we know now, it was probably all they could do.

And I don’t think its fair to compare Dresden to Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
 
Its very easy to judge teh actions of those who lived years before us and had a terrible choice to make.

Was it neccessary? I don’t know, but I’d say it was a terrible war with terrible consquences, and even worse consquences if the Allies lost. Did that make it okay? It’s no good that innocent civilians died, but really, as cold as this is sounds, its a numbers game. Incinerate one German city. Or loose teh whole war.

Could they have done it another way? Maybe, I wasn’t there. But we’re talking about generals and men knowledgable in stratergy, maybe they couldn’t see any other way, maybe they tried to think of something but couldn’t come up with anything.

But what happened has happened, and those responsible, I think honestly beleived they had no other choice. Was it moral? It was war. It was horrible. Perhaps they did choose the lesser of two evils.

No war is a merry skip through a field of flowers.

I leave the judgements to God, because only He knows the whole story; but I do tend to side on the fact, that given what we know now, it was probably all they could do.

And I don’t think its fair to compare Dresden to Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
On the Hiroshima threads, I asked those in opposition to come up with an alternative.

It’s 1943 or July 1945. They are in charge. What would they do.

One fellow said he would surrender.

Other than that … no response.
 
Is there a thread, “The Firebombing of London during World War II” anywhere? Just curious.
 
This thread has been dormant for a considerable period. With rare exceptions, reviving threads after a protracted period of inactivity is discouraged because:
Code:
the issues that spurred them are often no longer "hot" or current topics, explaining why thread activity ceased originally.
posters originally involved in the discussion are sometimes no longer active on the forum and, therefore, unavailable to reply to comments added to the thread.
Our experience suggests that, when a topic merits revival, it is best accomplished by initiating a new thread that draws on recent events and can be posted to contemporaneously. This eliminates the baggage of folks being frustrated by asking and not receiving responses to issues raised in early posts (because the new poster didn’t notice that the post he was responding to was made a long time ago).

Posters are very welcome to open a new thread on the subject or any other topic, as well as to actively participate in the myriad active threads in the fora.

Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top