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Will_Pick
Guest
The bible talks about the first born of Mary,is this not saying Mary had other children ?
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George_Waters
Guest
Will Pick:
If Mary had other children than why would Jesus need to place her in the care of the apostle John?
Something to think about.
I do not believe so. I am the first born of my mother though I am an only child. My son is my wife’s first born and will always be even if we don’t have any more children. First is first and does not require additional numbers to be the first.
If Mary had other children than why would Jesus need to place her in the care of the apostle John?
Something to think about.
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MrS
Guest
There is a distinction between:
First Born … the one who will receive, or inheirit, or obtain, the special favors and privileges of the family, from the Father
and
Born First… which could imply that there is a Born Second, etc.
refer to Genesis when Esau “sold” his birthright to Jacob for stew. Jacob became the “First Born”
First Born … the one who will receive, or inheirit, or obtain, the special favors and privileges of the family, from the Father
and
Born First… which could imply that there is a Born Second, etc.
refer to Genesis when Esau “sold” his birthright to Jacob for stew. Jacob became the “First Born”
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Fidelis
Guest
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George_Waters
Guest
Well Said MrS!
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MariaG
Guest
There is in the Bible or possibly a tombstone from around the same time period? ( probably cited in the article linked in previous post), a story of a woman who died giving birth to her firstborn child. The woman is dead. She can not have any more children, yet her child is still referred to as firstborn.
Language usage changes.
God Bless,
Maria
Language usage changes.
God Bless,
Maria
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
If Mary only had one child, would not that child be the firstborn?
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BrianH
Guest
George Waters:
They were not there, only John was(besides all the women mentioned).
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kparlet
Guest
Then why didn’t Jesus tell John to tell his “brother” to watch over her?
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MariaG
Guest
Jesus gave His mother to the care and protection of John because the others apostles or brothers weren’t there?
God Bless,
Maria
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BrianH
Guest
There is one fact we will all agree on I am sure.
Only John was there with the women. I do not think that anyone is arguing with that.
Also, we will agree at the very least, the four men mentioned with Mary were her nephews.
We also suspect, I think we will all agree, these men were not believers.
As far as why Jesus did or did not do something, I would prefer to just stick to the facts. But** if ** they are not believers, you could see why they would not get care of his mother.
Only John was there with the women. I do not think that anyone is arguing with that.
Also, we will agree at the very least, the four men mentioned with Mary were her nephews.
We also suspect, I think we will all agree, these men were not believers.
As far as why Jesus did or did not do something, I would prefer to just stick to the facts. But** if ** they are not believers, you could see why they would not get care of his mother.
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BrianH
Guest
I posted this awhile back but I do not think anyone responed:
“James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb.” Hegesippus
We will throw in Jude as well though:
"There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. "
Hegesippus
"the family of one of the reputed brothers of the Saviour, named Judas, as having survived until this same reign"
Hegesippus
Lets look at the context:
Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Mary wants to speak to him. The “brothers” are with her and also have something to say. No one else is mentioned. She travels with them and if anyone else is with them, they are not mentioned.
Mat 13:54-56 *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? *
*
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things? *
Jesus is back home. The people are astonished. They are not believers and they are talking about a family.
Hey…thats Joseph’s son.
His Mom is Mary.
His brothers are James, Joses, Simon, and Judas.
And his sisters are here.
If these are other peoples kids…they leave out that important detail. No doubt these four men do not just travel with her, like the other verses, in his hometown they are so closely associated together that no one else is mentioned…they are once again all together AND NO OTHER ADULTS.
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
Different author here. Same four guys associated with him.
John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
His Mom is with him again and his brothers, traveling with her again. No other family mentioned. Him mother. His disciples. His brothers.
You have seen the context that shows they are brothers, where is my cousin context for these verses?"
“James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother’s womb.” Hegesippus
We will throw in Jude as well though:
"There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. "
Hegesippus
"the family of one of the reputed brothers of the Saviour, named Judas, as having survived until this same reign"
Hegesippus
Lets look at the context:
Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Mary wants to speak to him. The “brothers” are with her and also have something to say. No one else is mentioned. She travels with them and if anyone else is with them, they are not mentioned.
Mat 13:54-56 *And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? *
*
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things? *
Jesus is back home. The people are astonished. They are not believers and they are talking about a family.
Hey…thats Joseph’s son.
His Mom is Mary.
His brothers are James, Joses, Simon, and Judas.
And his sisters are here.
If these are other peoples kids…they leave out that important detail. No doubt these four men do not just travel with her, like the other verses, in his hometown they are so closely associated together that no one else is mentioned…they are once again all together AND NO OTHER ADULTS.
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
Different author here. Same four guys associated with him.
John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
His Mom is with him again and his brothers, traveling with her again. No other family mentioned. Him mother. His disciples. His brothers.
You have seen the context that shows they are brothers, where is my cousin context for these verses?"
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kparlet
Guest
But if in fact Mary had other children and therefore, Jesus had brothers or sisters, don’t you think they would be there for his death? Not only to witness their brother on the cross, but to comfort their mother?..just a thought.
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BrianH
Guest
All I know is what the Bible says. Only John and the women. No Peter, No anybody else.
BH
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MariaG
Guest
Yes, I could see even IF Jesus did have brothers, actual brothers born from Mary, who were not believers that Jesus would not have wanted Mary to live with them.
But this point actually strays from what should be the focus and I agree that trying to figure out why Jesus did something is not always possible or helpful.
The point that can be confirmed historically?
**First born in no way implies that there was ever a second born child. **
God Bless,
Maria
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kparlet
Guest
Then maybe in this case, what it doesn’t say also speaks volumes.
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BrianH
Guest
God Bless,
Maria
I agree. I think that when Protestants use this verse to prove their point, it is rather silly.
Chace was my firstborn, even when the four others were not around
BH
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BrianH
Guest
Okay, I also think we lose sight of how things were back then.
We have no clue what the people with Mary were doing at the time of his death. Mary, I do not think, had more than a weeks notice that he might be dying here. Its not like she could have called or emailed guys.
Jesus had also clearly stated earlier that:
"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Jesus was not going to be bound my family ties in this kind of decision. If you are a believer, and John certainly was, that is what mattered to him…I would suspect based upon that verse and others.
BH
We have no clue what the people with Mary were doing at the time of his death. Mary, I do not think, had more than a weeks notice that he might be dying here. Its not like she could have called or emailed guys.
Jesus had also clearly stated earlier that:
"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Jesus was not going to be bound my family ties in this kind of decision. If you are a believer, and John certainly was, that is what mattered to him…I would suspect based upon that verse and others.
BH
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MariaG
Guest
Awesome. I am glad we can agree on the fact that first born son does not prove whether or not Mary had more children or not. (Notice I did not say I am glad we can agree on whether or not Our blessed Mother had more children, just that first born means nothingOriginally posted by BrianH
I agree. I think that when Protestants use this verse to prove their point, it is rather silly.
Chace was my firstborn, even when the four others were not around
BH
)I too find it slightly silly or intellectually dishonest, depending on my mood
God Bless,
Maria
And what is up with the auto quote? It does not seem to be working correctly lately. I have to keep going back and manually correcting it
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adrift
Guest
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