First canonized saint to have an abortion?

[JerryZ]

If sinners could not become Saints then St. Peter, St. Paul are in trouble. But nothing is impossible to GOD. Rejoice that GOD willing we shall join them soon.
Peace!

 

[Socrates92]

Saint Blessed Bartolo Longo was an ex-Satanist high priest… so I don’t the fact that Dorothy Day repented of her abortion and went on to become a saint is not particularly spectacular.

 

[Uriel1]

Uriel1:

My diocese has even stopped teaching the First Communion kids that it is a sin to miss Mass deliberately so that when the confirmation kids were told that, they were astonished

Although I have not taught kids, I have repeatedly had an earful from those who do teach in the Catholic schools, as well as those who teach CCD or its equivalent.

As children receive Communion at about the age of 7 or 8, they all too often are in families where the parents may not make it to Sunday Mass regularly or at all. At times the choice for a Catholic school is based on reputation of training the children better than the equivalent public school, not because they (the parents) are committed Catholics. Others put their kids in CAtholic school to get what they can’t, themselves, teach of the Faith… I ahve heard too many times of parents showing up for the weekday children’s Mass, and not darkening the door on Sunday for whatever reason(s) or excuses.

Teaching young children that missing Mass is a sin may be correct moral theology, but it puts a 7, 8, 9 or older child in the position of being taught one thing and having parents who do just the opposite. It is said that the family is the foundation of teaching Faith; so what are the children being taught - that their parents (and possibly they ) are going to hell? Or are they being taught "never mind what they are teaching you at (school, CCD); it is not true?

So the teachers are between a rock and a hard place; and I would have a tendency to agree with the teachers, that teaching missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin to young children who a) have absolutely no control in the matter and b) will be given weekly evidence to the contrary by their parents, does not make sense.

Do you think that Jesus would have held back the truth to help those between a rock and a hard place, or maybe illustrated the truth with a parable? We are not just a social club, but God’s people, here to proclaim the Kingdom of truth

 

[tweedlealice]

Sins can be forgiven. The Our Father has the formula. FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES,AS WE FORGIVE THOSE, WHO HAVE TRESPASSED AGAINST US! Now, if we don’t forgive others, we can’t be forgiven. Forgiveness is a gift from God. Keeping negativity hurts us. Forgiveness gets rid of the anger or whatever.
Just don’t commit the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is unforgivable.

 

[tweedlealice]

Thank you for repeating earlier thread notes. I’m glad she was really remorseful.

 

[otjm]

Do you think that Jesus would have held back the truth to help those between a rock and a hard place, or maybe illustrated the truth with a parable

I don’t know if you have had children. I have. I am also aware of Mt. 18:6, which you might want to read. A 9 year old child has no way to reconcile being taught that missing Mass is a mortal sin, with his parents not taking him to Mass. If you don’t get that, I can’t help you understand that not telling the children about that mortal sin would likely create major problems for them.

 

[Uriel1]

Uriel1:

Do you think that Jesus would have held back the truth to help those between a rock and a hard place, or maybe illustrated the truth with a parable

I don’t know if you have had children. I have. I am also aware of Mt. 18:6, which you might want to read. A 9 year old child has no way to reconcile being taught that missing Mass is a mortal sin, with his parents not taking him to Mass. If you don’t get that, I can’t help you understand that not telling the children about that mortal sin would likely create major problems for them.

I get it, but the better way to do it is use the word “serious sin” to the parents who enrol the kids in the class and ask them to try to better order their lives to put God at the centre, and help them to achieve that by inviting them to yours for dinner, and show them how we pray before and after our meals. Hiding the truth was something Jesus never did.

Let me tell show you an example; we abhor abortion, but how many of us come forwards to help those girls with a room at ours and love, enabling the birth of the baby? It is always easier to be laisser faire but the right thing is to call out the sin.

In my job I always tell patients that smoking will almost certainly cause disease, and you’d be amazed how many stop, then tell me that their kid or grandkid who sat in through the consultation nagged them, and nagged them till they actually stopped.

So Matt 18 tells us that if they make their First Communion but don’t know the sin in missing Mass and then miss it, they are already stumbling. . . .

 

[otjm]

I get it, but the better way to do it is use the word “serious sin” to the parents who enrol the kids in the class and ask them to try to better order their lives to put God at the centre, and help them to achieve that by inviting them to yours for dinner, and show them how we pray before and after our meals. Hiding the truth was something Jesus never did.

Oh, I am sure that going to dinner at the kids’ parents house and saying grace is going to convert the parents. NOT.

Let me tell show you an example;

This has nothing to do with the discussion of teaching 7 or 8 or 9 year olds.

In my job I always tell patients that smoking will almost certainly cause disease, and you’d be amazed how many stop, then tell me that their kid or grandkid who sat in through the consultation nagged them, and nagged them till they actually stopped.

That has little or nothing to do with the issue of teaching a 7 year old that when they miss Mass, they a;re committing a mortal sin, when they have absolutely no control over the matter. You clearly have no concept of age-appropriate information.

So Matt 18 tells us that if they make their First Communion but don’t know the sin in missing Mass and then miss it, they are already stumbling. . . .

No. The parents are stumbling.

 

[Uriel1]

The parents are stumbling.

Granted, but so are the Catechists, and the children are not being taught the truth. The kids are not sinning if the parents wont take them, but they are not being properly informed. tell me once, just once where Jesus hid the truth

That has little or nothing to do with the issue of teaching a 7 year old that when they miss Mass, they a;re committing a mortal sin, when they have absolutely no control over the matter. You clearly have no concept of age-appropriate information.

Correct, the kids wont be sinning, but the parents likely are . . . and if the kids knew the truth they would teach the parents, just like the parents I see with kids sitting in often tell me that they have made lifestyle changes because the kids kept on at them

 

[Uriel1]

Oh, I am sure that going to dinner at the kids’ parents house and saying grace is going to convert the parents. NOT.

I actually suggested you invite the family to yours, more than once. Give them a good time and show them how to pray over a meal. Teach the kids

 

[otjm]

You are now on ignore.

 

[Uriel1]

You are now on ignore.

God love you, my friend

 

[Randolph]

God can forgive any sin. Look at Venerable Matt Talbot who spent years drunk. I saw an article questioning canonizing someone like him solely for the sins he committed which to me seems wrong. They argued it wouldn’t send a good message to others. That’s ridiculous. To me it sends a message that you can indeed become a saint, regardless of your sins.

Whatever sins you’ve committed, he can make them white as snow though they be as red as scarlet.

Amen… Among other examples:

—St. Paul persecuted and hunted down Christians;
—St. Augustine fathered children outside of marriage;
—St. Peter—the holder of the key to Heaven—denied Christ three times.

Love, mercy, repentance, and forgiveness are bedrocks of Catholicism.

 

[NoelFitz]

This has nothing to do with the discussion of teaching 7 or 8 or 9 year olds.

The thread is not about teaching young children.

 

[otjm]

No, it was a side discussion.

Categorized under the heading of “Oh! Look! A chicken!”

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Any sin can be forgiven (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.)

I don’t want to get off on too much of a tangent, but what exactly is “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”?

 

[Emtguy89]

As all abortions are murder, without exception, and there is no valid excuse for it, ever, then having an abortion is the same as committing what secular law calls murder, and there are no doubt plenty of saints who have done that. Saint Paul for example. The number of canonized saints is in the thousands at least. A good portion of our Church’s history, we’ve been outlaws. No doubt that among the pagans there were some people who had murdered Christians, and then later converted, who are possibly saints, having at some point committed the exact same crime as Saint Dorothy did.