First Cause

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Is the First Cause Dependent upon an Effect?

Rossum is arguing that in order for there to be that which is called a “First Cause,” there must be a contemporaneous effect. The question is, is this true?

Certainly, in the world of words, i.e., from the standpoint of the logic of language (grammar), and those things which the language stands as a sign for, a cause is not a cause until it can be associated with an effect. In other words, a cause can only be a cause simultaneous with the recognition of (at least) its initial effect, but not until then. However, from an ontological perspective, there is a problem with this scenario.

But the problem is not a simple one for (at least) two reasons: first, from an ontological point of view, an effect cannot pre-exist its cause. And second: nor can an effect be its own cause, for again it would then pre-exist itself. Either way, this would be clearly contradictory. Besides, we know from all of our investigations of cause-effect events in the world, that the cause always anticipates the effect. In my opinion Rossum’s entire line of reasoning, which says that a “cause is not a cause until it produces an effect,” rests on sophistry.

As explained by St. Thomas, the middle term of a demonstrative syllogism represents a certain and necessary cause or principle. The derivative word here for ‘cause’ is the word: principle. ‘Principle’ he defines as: “that from which anything flows in any manner whatsoever.” - (Summa, Book I, q. 33, a. 1). Further, he says, that a principle is not a cause, per se, although it may be a cause, as a parent is the cause of its child. He goes on to teach that there are principles that are not causes, e.g., a point on a line is not the cause of the line; but, that every cause is a principle.

Principle implies orderly origin but does not imply dependence: which is interesting. What is interesting about this is that the dependence St. Thomas suggests is of a different sort than what is being argued for by Rossum. A cause, he says, is indeed a principle, but it is a principle from which anything proceeds “with dependence.” In other words, the effect depends on the cause rather than the other way around. A cause is that on which the effect depends in order to come to be or to simply be.

Now, the word principle is from late middle English, from old French, from Latin principium ‘source’, principia (plural) ‘foundations’, from princeps, princip- ‘first, chief’ (- The Oxford Dictionaries on line). As used in the Latin, it is: that from which anything flows in any manner whatsoever. ‘Cause’ is in the order of ‘principle’. The pairing of the words: ‘cause’ and ‘effect’, was derived from the need to communicate the fact that when certain things occurred, certain other things were produced always, or for the most part, as a result.

But, it is not a bad definition to call the principle of anything that from which the thing begins, since principium means ‘beginning’, i.e., ‘source’. When St. Thomas speaks of ‘First Cause’ he is speaking about this idea of ‘cause’, not the exsanguinated, modern meaning which places it in tandem with ‘effect’. Correctly speaking, First Cause has to do with its action of being the beginning of all chains of events, including their continuous maintenance, as they move, change and exist in space-time. The beginning of the universe is merely one of trillions of such activities, albeit an all-important one (to us). And, even if our universe exists in a multi-verse landscape, there is no reason to conclude that it, too, did not have a beginning. No finite thing, or even a collection of finite things, can be the source, beginning, or cause of itself.

God bless,
jd
 
Is the First Cause Dependent upon an Effect?

Rossum is arguing that in order for there to be that which is called a “First Cause,” there must be a contemporaneous effect. The question is, is this true?

Certainly, in the world of words, i.e., from the standpoint of the logic of language (grammar), and those things which the language stands as a sign for, a cause is not a cause until it can be associated with an effect. In other words, a cause can only be a cause simultaneous with the recognition of (at least) its initial effect, but not until then. However, from an ontological perspective, there is a problem with this scenario.

But the problem is not a simple one for (at least) two reasons: first, from an ontological point of view, an effect cannot pre-exist its cause. And second: nor can an effect be its own cause, for again it would then pre-exist itself. Either way, this would be clearly contradictory. Besides, we know from all of our investigations of cause-effect events in the world, that the cause always anticipates the effect. In my opinion Rossum’s entire line of reasoning, which says that a “cause is not a cause until it produces an effect,” rests on sophistry.
It rests on Nagarjuna. How can a cause be a cause and simultaneously not be a cause?
As explained by St. Thomas, the middle term of a demonstrative syllogism represents a certain and necessary cause or principle. The derivative word here for ‘cause’ is the word: principle. ‘Principle’ he defines as: “that from which anything flows in any manner whatsoever.” - (Summa, Book I, q. 33, a. 1).
Which matches my point. If nothing has yet “flowed” then the object in question is not (yet) a Principle.
Correctly speaking, First Cause has to do with its action of being the beginning of all chains of events, including their continuous maintenance, as they move, change and exist in space-time. The beginning of the universe is merely one of trillions of such activities, albeit an all-important one (to us). And, even if our universe exists in a multi-verse landscape, there is no reason to conclude that it, too, did not have a beginning. No finite thing, or even a collection of finite things, can be the source, beginning, or cause of itself.
There is reason to conclude that there was no beginning, that the multiverse is eternal:At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on.
  • Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3
    In an eternal universe there is no beginning to the chain of events.
rossum
 
There is reason to conclude that there was no beginning, that the multiverse is eternal:At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on.
  • Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3In an eternal universe there is no beginning to the chain of events.
rossum
How can you make a definitive claim from a quote which is about that which cannot be construed, or explained? Because a beginning point is not evident does not mean it does not exist.

According to your quoted passage, an inconstrutable beginning point is the cause of the first transmigration.

The inconstruable is so because you are still thinking in terms of a Humerian concept of causation. Go back to post #42 to begin an alternative field of enquiry.

All rather self evident.
 
It rests on Nagarjuna. How can a cause be a cause and simultaneously not be a cause?
Rossum:

A naked assertion. Your question needs no answer: it is the either/or that is under discussion.
Which matches my point. If nothing has yet “flowed” then the object in question is not (yet) a Principle.
You are ‘defining’ yourself into an impossible situation, Rossum. You can’t possibly know whether or not the First Principle, i.e., First Cause, is responsible for anything else. Yours is, as you like to call it, a ‘naked assertion’. Whereas things exist and they are finite, therefore, a priori, there must have been a primal cause, or first principle. That’s logical and, moreover, these days, scientific.
There is reason to conclude that there was no beginning, that the multiverse is eternal:At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on.
  • Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3
Another naked assertion. I say, the universe is not eternal. So there.
In an eternal universe there is no beginning to the chain of events.
Not relevant; I do not believe in an eternal universe.

God bless,
jd
 
Then post a link…I have seen you assert it, I have not seen your proof.
Having responded to the answer multiple times, we know that you do know why we call First Cause Actus Purus and are pretending that you do not now that you need another distraction. No one is fooled by these continual antics. Do you, or do you not have a formal logical refutation to the proof offered or are you ready to admit that you do not and accept the proof?
 
You are ‘defining’ yourself into an impossible situation, Rossum. You can’t possibly know whether or not the First Principle, i.e., First Cause, is responsible for anything else.
If I cannot know then neither can you.
Yours is, as you like to call it, a ‘naked assertion’. Whereas things exist and they are finite, therefore, a priori, there must have been a primal cause, or first principle. That’s logical and, moreover, these days, scientific.
I suggest you have a look at Multiverse theory, which is also currently scientific. There is only a logical requirement for a First Cause in a non-eternal universe. In an eternal universe, which does not have a beginning, there is no logical requirement for a First Cause. See the Kalaam argument for details.
Another naked assertion. I say, the universe is not eternal. So there.
This current bubble universe is indeed not eternal. I am talking about the overall universe/multiverse, which contains many smaller bubble universes, such as ours.
Not relevant; I do not believe in an eternal universe.
I do. Which probably explains some of our differences over a First Cause.

rossum
 
How can you make a definitive claim from a quote which is about that which cannot be construed, or explained? Because a beginning point is not evident does not mean it does not exist.
That was merely the first relevant quote I had to hand.

Here is another one:“There comes a time, monks, sooner or later after a long period, when this [material] world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly reborn in the [immaterial] Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long time.”

Wrong view 5 “But the time comes, sooner or later after a long period, when this [material] world begins to expand. In this expanding world an empty palace of Brahma appears. And then one being, from exhaustion of his life-span or of his merits, falls from the Abhassara world and arises in the empty Brahma-palace. And there he dwells, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and he stays like that for a very long time.”
  • Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1
    This shows the Buddhist concept of an eternal immaterial universe with temporary material universes expanding and contracting.
rossum
 
That was merely the first relevant quote I had to hand.

Here is another one:“There comes a time, monks, sooner or later after a long period, when this [material] world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly reborn in the [immaterial] Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long time.”

Wrong view 5 “But the time comes, sooner or later after a long period, when this [material] world begins to expand. In this expanding world an empty palace of Brahma appears. And then one being, from exhaustion of his life-span or of his merits, falls from the Abhassara world and arises in the empty Brahma-palace. And there he dwells, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and he stays like that for a very long time.”
  • Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1This shows the Buddhist concept of an eternal immaterial universe with temporary material universes expanding and contracting.
rossum
Gobbeldy Gook and irrelevant to the topic and everything else in this universe and any other that exist in the minds of men prone to fanciful thinking. Hawking included. 😃
 
In case anyone reading this thread is unaware, the idea that an eternal universe does not require a First Cause is false. As Fr. Copleston pointed out in a 1947 debate with Bertrand Russell, an infinite number of contingent beings does not become its own cause. A million chocolates does not equal a chocolate factory. This argument has been disproven for 64 years, longer than most of the people who still make it have been alive. :rolleyes:
 
In case anyone reading this thread is unaware, the idea that an eternal universe does not require a First Cause is false. As Fr. Copleston pointed out in a 1947 debate with Bertrand Russell, an infinite number of contingent beings does not become its own cause. A million chocolates does not equal a chocolate factory. This argument has been disproven for 64 years, longer than most of the people who still make it have been alive. :rolleyes:
Nor does the First Cause require a cause because the First Cause creates causality! 🙂
 
Nor does the First Cause require a cause because the First Cause creates causality! 🙂
That’s another interesting way to look at it. First Cause precedes the concept of causality. First Cause establishes causality hence it cannot be subject to causality.
 
Is anything known truly linear? Try drawing your perceived straight line around the earth and then take a trip to the moon. Is space and light linear? No. Is matter or anything seen in the cosmos linear? No. Can’t everything perceived form a closed loop given enough space? Why can’t it? Why can’t CAUSE and EFFECT? You wouldn’t need a cause to precede an effect in a closed loop. Your thoughts?
 
Is anything known truly linear? Try drawing your perceived straight line around the earth and then take a trip to the moon. Is space and light linear? No. Is matter or anything seen in the cosmos linear? No. Can’t everything perceived form a closed loop given enough space? Why can’t it? Why can’t CAUSE and EFFECT? You wouldn’t need a cause to precede an effect in a closed loop. Your thoughts?
Are you referring to a closed system?

If you are, what’s outside it?
 
Is anything known truly linear? Try drawing your perceived straight line around the earth and then take a trip to the moon. Is space and light linear? No. Is matter or anything seen in the cosmos linear? No. Can’t everything perceived form a closed loop given enough space? Why can’t it? Why can’t CAUSE and EFFECT? You wouldn’t need a cause to precede an effect in a closed loop. Your thoughts?
A closed loop doesn’t account for itself!
 
Is anything known truly linear? Try drawing your perceived straight line around the earth and then take a trip to the moon. Is space and light linear? No. Is matter or anything seen in the cosmos linear? No. Can’t everything perceived form a closed loop given enough space? Why can’t it? Why can’t CAUSE and EFFECT? You wouldn’t need a cause to precede an effect in a closed loop. Your thoughts?
What is the meaning of a closed loop?

In-order for it to have any meaning in the first place we must first agree that there is such a thing as causality, that a cause precedes the effect necessarily and requires one in-order to exist. If are are talking about something which changes and therefore has potentiality, one must admit that an effect is existentially proportionate to the nature and power of the cause because out of nothing comes nothing. We must admit this if we agree that a closed loop is necessarily the sum of its parts.

But then you proceed to destroy that meaning by turning all events in to effects with no ultimate cause, because what we are left with, in a loop, is a string of secondary causes that are forever borrowing their existential power and potentiality from preceding effects, since out of nothing comes nothing, and thus we never find out where that power and potentiality came from because it doesn’t originate in any of the secondary causes. Thus in effect, a closed loop requires something to come out of absolutely nothing by itself.

In a closed loop, as i have said, there are only ever secondary causes which do not ultimately explain the existence of the effect because all secondary causes are themselves effects since they are forever preceded by effects and thus have no explanatory value in regards to the existence of their existential potentiality. There is no reason for there to be any effect in existence at all if there is no ultimate cause that is not itself a potential effect.

Also, in a loop there is no change, since all effects are complete. There is no progression beyond the loop, and thus no potentiality in it. There is no rational meaning in the idea of going around in a loop that is already complete in its potentiality - complete in its effect; since the effects themselves comprise the sum of its parts and thus defines the existence of the loop in its completion.

The idea of an eternal universe with no cause, has always been irrational. It has been proven false for centuries. Its continuation proceeds because of a lack education, an encouragement in true and honest critical thinking, elitist propaganda, and an agenda which has noting to do with rationality, but is to do with undermining all attempts at making religion appear rational. Its not about producing rational arguments, but rather its to do with creating an illusion of rationality.

This illusion in its most successful form has been the subjugation of science as a mascot for atheist skepticism.
 
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rel1:
In my hypothesis a closed loop or system is cyclicle. Everything in existence evolves and reevolves. Nothing is lost or gained. It generates and regenerates. So why would there have to be anything outside???
 
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