First Confession, Moral Theology

[Esdra]

Hi folks,

today I had an interesting discussion with an aquaintance of me. He was Catholic but became an Agnostic and even left the Church.

He said that the Catholic Church teaches that blood-transfusions are bad, just like Jehovah’s Wittnesses do (That’s by the way one of the reasons they are known for!).

And that the same counts for organ transplantationes.

He also mentioned sth concerning aids and that the CC rejects this illness completely. But I didn’t really get him here…

What is the official doctrine of the CC concerning these two issues? (I promised him to post it here, as he knows that I am registered here at CAF and often write posts here, and tell him then. )

Another point we were discussing about is that her daughter didn’t want to go to confession before recieving First Communion because she thought that to be ridiculous.
I guess a typical aspect of VERY poor catechisis!
But, as he quitted with the Church, he said he doesn’t mind; because he also thinks that it is stupid for a child with 8 years to go to confession. What terrible sins she might have done?
And he said he remembered when he had to go to confession as a child that he was afraid in the cold and dark church with a statue of a martyr scourging himself (what could he have meant?) and that he made up sins because he simply couldn’t remember any he actually commited.

I then told him that he and her daughter be heretics because you are obliged from the CC doctrine to go to confession before recieving the Holy Communion for the first time. (And I added that I also would be, as I am not even Catholic [anymore].)
By the way is this linked to 1 Cor 11:29?

But the story is going on! Then several kids (classmates of his daughter) refused to go to confession and when the priest of his parish got to know, he said he’ll refuse Holy Communion to those without them going to confession.
So the parents went to the priest of the neighboring parish and asked him to give their kids first communion and he agreed to make a penitential service for the kids and then give them the First Communion.

What do you say to this? Did the priest of the neighboring village act correctly? Or the priest of his home parish?

What would you suggest him (my acquaintance)?

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[Scoobyshme]

Hi folks,

today I had an interesting discussion with an aquaintance of me. He was Catholic but became an Agnostic and even left the Church.

He said that the Catholic Church teaches that blood-transfusions are bad, just like Jehovah’s Wittnesses do (That’s by the way one of the reasons they are known for!).

And that the same counts for organ transplantationes.

He also mentioned sth concerning aids and that the CC rejects this illness completely. But I didn’t really get him here…

What is the official doctrine of the CC concerning these two issues? (I promised him to post it here, as he knows that I am registered here at CAF and often write posts here, and tell him then. )

I’m not sure where he’s getting his information, but he’s completely wrong. The Church allows blood transfusions and organ transplants, etc. And no one takes care of AIDs patients more than the Catholic Church. So, tell him to try learning what the Church teaches from the Church. Not someone else. Not making it up. Not confusing it with Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.

Another point we were discussing about is that her daughter didn’t want to go to confession before recieving First Communion because she thought that to be ridiculous.
I guess a typical aspect of VERY poor catechisis! Correct.
But, as he quitted with the Church, he said he doesn’t mind; because he also thinks that it is stupid for a child with 8 years to go to confession. What terrible sins she might have done?

How about lying, stealing, cheating, disobeying mother/father, etc.? The Church withholds the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Communion until the age of seven, because that’s considered the age of reason. Your friend needs to understand what sin is, first of all. It is, to put it in its simplest form, saying, “No!” to God. God gave mankind 10 Commandments. Knowingly and willfully disobeying them is a sin. The Sacrament of Confession gives a child (or anyone) the opportunity to repent and make things right with God and the community, and know that they’ve made things right.

And he said he remembered when he had to go to confession as a child that he was afraid in the cold and dark church with a statue of a martyr scourging himself (what could he have meant?) and that he made up sins because he simply couldn’t remember any he actually commited. Sounds like he’d never been taught to do a good examination of conscience. And, like he wasn’t taught much about the faith, even then.

I then told him that he and her daughter be heretics because you are obliged from the CC doctrine to go to confession before recieving the Holy Communion for the first time. (And I added that I also would be, as I am not even Catholic [anymore].)
By the way is this linked to 1 Cor 11:29?

But the story is going on! Then several kids (classmates of his daughter) refused to go to confession and when the priest of his parish got to know, he said he’ll refuse Holy Communion to those without them going to confession. As well he should. If you don’t teach them to do it right in the beginning, what chance do you have when they grow up?! Besides, the Church is very clear on children going to sacramental Confession before receiving First Holy Communion. And if they don’t understand sin, how can they understand Jesus and what He did for them?

So the parents went to the priest of the neighboring parish and asked him to give their kids first communion and he agreed to make a penitential service for the kids and then give them the First Communion. Second priest needs his hands slapped. Bad priest! He’ll have to answer for any of those children who never go to Confession now.

What do you say to this? Did the priest of the neighboring village act correctly? No, not at all. He was trying to be popular by doing what was wrong. Or the priest of his home parish? Yes. He was being faithful to his vocation. Doing his duty to the children and God.

What would you suggest him (my acquaintance)? Well, since he’s decided to turn his back on God and the Church, there’s not much I could tell him. I hope someone prays for him so that he converts back before he dies. Otherwise, it’s going to be a long eternity.

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[Barbkw]

He must not watch the News. It’s unbelievable the young age of children who commit adult crimes.

A child’s examination of conscience guide is going to center on God and family. Probably the areas where there’s a lack of love for God, parents, family and friends.

I’ve spoken with a four year old child about his anger, hurt and confussion over a relationship with a negative classmate in preschool.

I’d imagine at one time, there was apprehension about the safety of blood transfusions and transfused blood. Which is correct, it does spread disease when safeguards don’t catch contaminated blood.

Hospitals allow people, prior to planned surgeries, to donate their own blood in case it is needed.

 

[Dorothy]

There is a very good reason for First Confession before First Communion. A child begins to have a sense of what sin is, and to be catechized in the Ten Commandments according to his/her age appropriateness.

Your friend sounds quite unknowledgable about what the Church teaches, and it sounds like there is some exaggeration in the memories related to you.

I remember feeling nervous while waiting to make my first Confession, and, I think in most cases that it is natural to be. But, in growing older and more mature one realizes the peace and help that the Sacrament gives us.

 

[JRKH]

Scoobyshme pretty well covered all the points.

The only suggestion I can give you for helping your aquaintance is to continue to talk and work with her so that she (and her daughter) can learn what the Catholic Church really DOES teach and why.
Then it is up to a) The Holy spirit to convict her in the Truth and b) for her to respond to that conviction.

Peace
James

 

[Barbkw]

On the topic of confession prior to Eucharist, parents here may have different experiences parish to parish.

I’ve heard people say that some parishes institute the Sacrament of Reconciliation weeks after the children have received Eucharist.

That was not my family’s experience in the 1960-70s. And ya, it was more frightening an experience than it needed to be. And should have been handled better.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Scoobyshme,

thanks for this good answer.
I’ll wait for more (I’m sure there’ll be more interesting ones ) and then print it out and give it to him to read.

So a penitential service is not of the same value than a confession?
I didn’t know that. Because especially in Austria that’s becoming more and more popular. It started I guess when I was a child (so, about10 years ago).

Do you also have answers to

Esdra:

I then told him that he and her daughter be heretics because you are obliged from the CC doctrine to go to confession before recieving the Holy Communion for the first time. (And I added that I also would be, as I am not even Catholic [anymore].)
By the way is this linked to 1 Cor 11:29? (That you have to go to confession before recieving the Holy Communion?)

Did I tell him the right things concerning the necessity of confession before the (First) Communion?* [You see, I have also been very poorly catechised and have nearly converted in the meantime to a Baptist Church. So I only know most teachings of the CC if I had read them here in CAF!]*

I think it’s alarming that there are so many people out there calling themselves Catholics but knowing NOTHING about their faith and even talk lies and crabb about it.
This starts at refusing as a child going to confession and ends in rejecting the Church (normally). And this happens too often, I guess around the world!
I was the same, but at least I drew the consequence, after I have found after a long search Jesus, I left the CC!
But who knows what’ll happen if I write another 400 posts here! I am constantly learning about what the CC teaches and this is what I love this board for so much.

Esdra:

And he said he remembered when he had to go to confession as a child that he was afraid in the cold and dark church with a statue of a martyr scourging himself (what could he have meant?) and that he made up sins because he simply couldn’t remember any he actually commited.

Anyone know who he might have meant by the statue scourging himself? Or did he simply see Christ being scourged?

Esdra

 

[Carlan]

He must not watch the News. It’s unbelievable the young age of children who commit adult crimes.

A child’s examination of conscience guide is going to center on God and family. Probably the areas where there’s a lack of love for God, parents, family and friends.

I’ve spoken with a four year old child about his anger, hurt and confussion over a relationship with a negative classmate in preschool.

I’d imagine at one time, there was apprehension about the safety of blood transfusions and transfused blood. Which is correct, it does spread disease when safeguards don’t catch contaminated blood.

Hospitals allow people, prior to planned surgeries, to donate their own blood in case it is needed.

yes, is not the age of reason 7 years. natural law and such? Peace, Carlan

 

[Esdra]

yes, is not the age of reason 7 years. natural law and such? Peace, Carlan

Is it?
I am not sure about the US, but in Austria the age of reason is 14. When you get 14 you can be made accountable for your crimes and get into prison.

 

[Barbkw]

Esdra,

I don’t know if it would help him, but there are online adult examination of conscience guides for children and for adults.

They do a much better job of guiding a conscience through the Commandments than what was available in years past. They prompt insight into sin and the guide helps in the acknowledgement of our relationship with self, others and with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Google word search:

adult examination for children
adult examination for teens
adult examination for adults catholic

 

[Cristiano]

Is it?
I am not sure about the US, but in Austria the age of reason is 14. When you get 14 you can be made accountable for your crimes and get into prison.

The age of reason in the Catholic Church is 7 years old, that has nothing to do with the legal system.

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,

I don’t know if it would help him, but there are online adult examination of conscience guides for children and for adults.

They do a much better job of guiding a conscience through the Commandments than what was available in years past. They prompt insight into sin and the guide helps in the acknowledgement of our relationship with self, others and with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Google word search:

adult examination for children
adult examination for teens
adult examination for adults catholic

Hi

well, I don’t know if anything would help him…
I think he has quite quitted with the CC. - But I guess, I’ll have a look at it and show him, if I find something interesting. At least, I am writing this thread in authority of him.

And actually, it’s partly my fault. When I had found Jesus in the Baptist Church, I was quite aggressive in evangelizing and he told me later occasionally that as a consquence, he resigned compeltely and officially from it… (the CC)
But that was of course not my intend, as he didn’t want to become a Baptist either…
Although, who knows? Maybe he would’ve resigned nevertheless…

I know this was a mistake of me. - I have learned from my mistakes and am much less aggressive evangelizing and started just talking about religion… instead of making real attempts to prozytelise or so.

 

[Esdra]

The age of reason in the Catholic Church is 7 years old, that has nothing to do with the legal system.

Hi

I see. But what did the other poster (Carlan; see above) mean then?

Esdra

 

[Cristiano]

Hi

I see. But what did the other poster (Carlan; see above) mean then?

Esdra

Carlan mentioned natural law and not secular law (law of a specific country). Natural law is the law that is imprinted into us by God, and such a law will drive us even if we are not knowledgeable of Christ.

 

[Esdra]

Carlan mentioned natural law and not secular law (law of a specific country). Natural law is the law that is imprinted into us by God, and such a law will drive us even if we are not knowledgeable of Christ.

Hi

most intersting.
I’ve never heard about that ever before.
Is this then a terminology from theology or philosphy?

 

[KarenElissa]

So a penitential service is not of the same value than a confession?
I didn’t know that. Because especially in Austria that’s becoming more and more popular. It started I guess when I was a child (so, about10 years ago).

Esdra

This all depends on what exactly you are calling a “penitential service.”

If you are talking about one that includes general absolution, when the priest prays the prayer over everyone at the same time without actual confession, these are NOT allowed except in VERY extreme circumstances, as in the plane is about to crash. Also, for it to be valid one must intend to go to regular confession as soon as they can if they survive.

If when you say “penitential service” you are talking about when there is a short service, often the priest leads everyone in an examination of conscience, and then everyone goes to individual confession, usually there are a number of priests for this, than that is perfectly fine and can be a good source of encouragement.

 

[Cristiano]

Hi

most intersting.
I’ve never heard about that ever before.
Is this then a terminology from theology or philosphy?

It started when philosophy and theology were not separated. The concept of natural law was described by mankind well before Christianity. There is a famous Greek drama that was based on the natural law concept of burying the dead. The name of the drama is “Antigone” by Sophocle.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Karen,

thanks.

This all depends on what exactly you are calling a “penitential service.”

If you are talking about one that includes general absolution, when the priest prays the prayer over everyone at the same time without actual confession, these are NOT allowed except in VERY extreme circumstances, as in the plane is about to crash. Also, for it to be valid one must intend to go to regular confession as soon as they can if they survive.

Yes, I meant this one here. As I have said, this is becoming more and more popular and I guess this is what the priest of the neighboring parish will do with the children of my acquaintence’s daughter’s class.

If when you say “penitential service” you are talking about when there is a short service, often the priest leads everyone in an examination of conscience, and then everyone goes to individual confession, usually there are a number of priests for this, than that is perfectly fine and can be a good source of encouragement.

But I have also heard of this one.
But normally this is no seperate service. I just remember the priest saying: “Today after (or before) mass/service is an opportunity to confession.”

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

It started when philosophy and theology were not separated. The concept of natural law was described by mankind well before Christianity. There is a famous Greek drama that was based on the natural law concept of burying the dead. The name of the drama is “Antigone” by Sophocle.

Hi

thanks for clarifying.

So it’s from Greek philosphy.
I know Antigone by Sophocle only by name.

Esdra

 

[KarenElissa]

Yup, that is not at all allowed. And even when general absolution is permitted, one still must go to individual confession afterwards, so it makes no sense.

But I have also heard of this one.
But normally this is no seperate service. I just remember the priest saying: “Today after (or before) mass/service is an opportunity to confession.”

Esdra

In my area these kinds of services are quite popular in Advent and Lent. It is usually just 15 minutes or so, a song, a few words from the priest, and a guided examination. Then everyone goes to individual confession. The local priests take turns at the various parishes, so there are often 10 or so priest spread through out the church hearing confession. They are nice as it is a very vivid reminder that we are all sinners in need of confession.