T
traditionalgal
Guest
Is there anything in historical documents of the era of 325 that actually calls the participants Catholic? Is someone actually called the Pope?
- Status
A
Alexius
Guest
Even earlier actually:
St. Ignatius of Antioch, martyred under the Emeror Trajan around 110 A.D., says:
“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the first use of the term, “Catholic” by the Early Church Fathers, but it is not the last…
***It is important to note; however, that he is not writing specifically about the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope), but rather bishops in general.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
St. Ignatius of Antioch, martyred under the Emeror Trajan around 110 A.D., says:
“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the first use of the term, “Catholic” by the Early Church Fathers, but it is not the last…
***It is important to note; however, that he is not writing specifically about the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope), but rather bishops in general.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
T
traditionalgal
Guest
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. In which document does he say this? Also, do we know if that was a term meaning “universal” or an actual physical church?Even earlier actually:
St. Ignatius of Antioch, martyred under the Emeror Trajan around 110 A.D., says:
“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the first use of the term, “Catholic” by the Early Church Fathers, but it is not the last…
***It is important to note; however, that he is not writing specifically about the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope), but rather bishops in general.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
T
traditionalgal
Guest
Thanks for the interesting link. I see the term “Catholic” was used during the era of Ignatius and Polycarp. However, was there any evidence of Catholic teachings mentioned at that time from either of them such as-
- The real presence
- praying to the saints
- confession to priests
- Mary as co-redemptrix
- Pope as head of the church
- selling of indulgences
- Mary as a virgin at the end of her life
A
Alexius
Guest
The ones I bolded were accepted by the 4th century as Church teaching. The perpetual virginity of Mary the Theotokos was written on extensively by St. Jerome (I think he is the one…). Indulgences were much later and are foreign to me. As for selling them, that requires much studying to understand…I also don’t believe Mary was Co-Redemptrix and it is not dogma anyway. The real presence is talked about by Ignatius, Justin Martyr and many others from the very early 1st to the 3rd century and after that…Praying to saints, or rather seeking their intercession, is written about by St. Ephrem the Syrian in the 4th century. The primacy of the pope is written about from Ignatius onward. Confession to priests is from the ascetic movement in the 3rd century. Here is a link to the Ignatius writing you asked about:
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.viii.html…It took some time to find it on the internet since I use textbooks that I own on the Church Fathers. I can elaborate later if you’d like. I recommend reading some of the writings on the site I posted. There is wealth of texts on there…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
R
Rolltide
Guest
A few weeks ago I posted a long article based on the history of the Real Presence, based on information from the Early Church Fathers found on this site, with my own commentary interjected. You can read it at the link below, posts #6-14. I wrote it for a different purpose, but it should soundly answer the first of your seven points.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198602
Also, as Alexius pointed out, #4 is acceptable for belief, but is not required, and is not dogma.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=198602
Also, as Alexius pointed out, #4 is acceptable for belief, but is not required, and is not dogma.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Also, here are the links to references from the Early Church Fathers about different aspects of the papacy, from tracts available on this site. This should more than adequately address your fifth point.
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
As I understand First Council of Nicaea-325 AD is where basic and formal beliefs of the Modern Catholic Faith were decided.
From the experience of the source of Hadith, which was collected in the book form about 250 years after Muhammad, we can guess fairly well as to what would have happened to formalise the Catholic faith with the delay of one hundred years more.
We had at least Quran and Sunnah intact, wherefrom we could verify the things.
I respect your faith.
Thanks
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear traditionalgal
When brother Alexius states that the teachings were accepted in the 4th century, he is not indicating that they did not exist in the Church before that time. It is simply that it was not until the fourth century that the Church was really free to write down her beliefs and so we have more records since THAT time of the early Church’s beliefs. Before the 4th century, the Church was a heavily persecuted group in a pagan land, and many of her writings were destroyed in the 3rd century during those persecutions.
As far as indulgences are concerned, I believe the first record we have of them is (likewise) in the fourth century canons of individual Fathers. In the early Church, certain punishments were attached to certain sins. The worst of this was the inability for a penitent to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ in communion. For some sins, this punishment could last up to 20 years. Since the earliest times, in both the Eastern and Western Catholic Church, bishops had the authority to lessen these punishments depending on the penitential good works done by the one who sinned. The act of lessening the punishment by virtue of a good work or disposition was known as an indulgence.
The selling of indulgences (i.e., lessening the punishment by virtue of monetary payment) crept into the Western Catholic Church in the latter 12th century (by this time, the very idea of indulgences seems to have disappeared from the religious culture of the Eastern Catholic Church). It developed from the valid and holy notion that almsgiving or giving money to support the Church would be considered a good work on which an indulgence could be based. But certain priests (maybe bishops) abused the practice by using the system of indulgences for personal monetary gain. The abuse was formally condemned by a Lateran Council of the Western Catholic Church (in 1215, IIRC). Despite the condemnation by the Church, the practice continued in some areas by some unscrupulous local priests or itinerant monks.
Blessings,
Marduk
Just to add to the wonderful post by brother Alexius:
When brother Alexius states that the teachings were accepted in the 4th century, he is not indicating that they did not exist in the Church before that time. It is simply that it was not until the fourth century that the Church was really free to write down her beliefs and so we have more records since THAT time of the early Church’s beliefs. Before the 4th century, the Church was a heavily persecuted group in a pagan land, and many of her writings were destroyed in the 3rd century during those persecutions.
As far as indulgences are concerned, I believe the first record we have of them is (likewise) in the fourth century canons of individual Fathers. In the early Church, certain punishments were attached to certain sins. The worst of this was the inability for a penitent to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ in communion. For some sins, this punishment could last up to 20 years. Since the earliest times, in both the Eastern and Western Catholic Church, bishops had the authority to lessen these punishments depending on the penitential good works done by the one who sinned. The act of lessening the punishment by virtue of a good work or disposition was known as an indulgence.
The selling of indulgences (i.e., lessening the punishment by virtue of monetary payment) crept into the Western Catholic Church in the latter 12th century (by this time, the very idea of indulgences seems to have disappeared from the religious culture of the Eastern Catholic Church). It developed from the valid and holy notion that almsgiving or giving money to support the Church would be considered a good work on which an indulgence could be based. But certain priests (maybe bishops) abused the practice by using the system of indulgences for personal monetary gain. The abuse was formally condemned by a Lateran Council of the Western Catholic Church (in 1215, IIRC). Despite the condemnation by the Church, the practice continued in some areas by some unscrupulous local priests or itinerant monks.
Blessings,
Marduk
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
As the Sunnah as you have it is derived from the Hadith, your argument is circular. Btw, the textual history of the Quran is yet to be written.
And all the books of the New Testament were written within the first generations of Christians. Even if St. Paul didn’t know Christ while He walked the earth, there were plenty around who did with whom St. Paul associated with, and could have called him on anything he got wrong.
And the all those books were around at Nicea. They formed the basis of it, and wherefore it was verified.
A
Alexius
Guest
Yes, this is what I mean…Thank you for making that clearly than I did.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
J
JRKH
Guest
I assume you are refering to “Catholic” as distinct from “Christian”. However at the time of these writings there was no such difference. There was only one Christian Church and it was Catholic under the authority of the Bishops appointed through apostolic succession.
The distinction “Catholic” only became important as a distinct denomination after the Protestant Reformation since before that all Christians were Catholic.
The early church fathers had no reason to concern themselves with whether the term Catholic referred to the “name” of the Church or to the “Universal Church” since they were one in the same.
Peace
James
- Status