First EF in Our Parish; No More for Me, Thanks

[Claire_from_DE]

Why did you start this post? I’m new to CAF, but it seems like the “Traditional” forum merely serves as a place for Novus Ordo Catholics to vent their grievances and complain about traditionalism.

dubiously valid Novus Ordo liturgy any day, thanks!]

To call the OF dubiously valid is incorrect and signifies a rebellious attitude to the authority of the Church. Both forms are equally valid, both the same sacrifice and sacrament.

 

[ac_claire]

To the OP–

I had a completely different experience at the HIgh Mass I attended today. It was sung, reverent, beautiful, they had incense, chant, and some kind of classical music as well at various times. The sound system is much improved from other times I’ve been so I could actually hear some of what was going on. (The parts I’m supposed to hear, anyhow.) I wish I could tell you the correct terminology for the specifics but I’m not too well-versed yet. The sermon about St. Peter and St. Paul in Rome was the highlight for me.

In any case, the reason I respond is becauase the experience at my first two Latin masses was very similar to yours. I could have written your first post, in fact. Bottom line was I couldn’t hear anything, it was all mumbling to me, LATIN mumbling no less. I never knew where we were or what I was supposed to be doing. The music did not impress, and it was all very confusing. I left those masses thinking “ok, I’ve tried it, it’s ok but I prefer the OF.”

I can’t explain exactly all the different factors that led to it, but I didn’t “get it” until my 4th time. All of a sudden, I just understood what was happening, what we were doing and what the prayers meant. The whole package. You can’t take all the parts out and analyze them seperately-- they fit together to make a complete picture. It was like a beautiful secret revealed. But like I said, it took 4 times for me. So please, give it a couple more chances.

It’s worth it, I promise you.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

---

It is my understanding that the priests who offer the EF which you saw via EWTN are from the FSSP. They do have experience with this form of Mass since the EF is their specialization. This would account for the difference.

The priest who offered the EF in your parish may just need a bit of time to gain experience.

Actually, if it is the one I think you are talking about, it was Fr. Wolfgang Seitz, ORC.
bp0.blogger.com/_dfR_xG2hpmw/R_lH7mUfH1I/AAAAAAAACiM/VZouxpc9SxA/s400/08-04-06.jpg
He is one of the priests at Assumption Grotto in Detroit which is my parish.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

As for the EF Mass. I think many parishes are overdoing it with the High Mass. They are almost making it a production instead of a Mass. I think the Low Mass would be more to the liking of many.

 

[JRKH]

It sounds like the liturgy wasn’t done properly.

The important thing, though, is to pray the Mass and offer the Sacrifice. If you pray the prayers of the Mass, and unite your intentions with those of the priest, you should be able to discern a significant improvement from the new Mass - especially in the penetential and humble nature of the prayers, their doctrinal exactitude, and their beauty.

This isn’t a matter of taste. The EF is an objectively superior liturgy.

One can find the EF or the OF to be more satisfying, but that doesn’t make one or the other objectively better.
Such comments are denegrating to the fullness of faith and the glory of God in the sacrafice of the mass.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Yes, it’s my opinion. I also believe it to be the correct opinion. It’s always funny when someone says “that’s your opinion” as if I don’t already know it. How does the fact that it’s my opinion change whether the opinion is correct or incorrect? In reality, this is liberal code language; it means that every opinion is naturally as good as the next, which is absurd.

When you make a statement such as one form is objectively better it can be taken by the ininformed as more than just an opinion. This can be harmful
As to your believing it to be the “correct opinion”, how many opinions do you hold that you think are wrong. Ther must be some since you feel the need to distinguish.

**Simply because both are permitted, this does not mean that the two liturgies are just as good as one another. **The two points simply don’t logically flow. There’s absolutely no argument there - your argument requires me to hold liberal assumptions which I simply don’t hold.

Actually yes it does. The Holy Father has declared it. That is the end of it.

The Traditional Latin Mass has objectively superior prayer, which more accurately and fully expounds the Church’s doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, and better express the humility with which we should approach God with our petitions and offerings. If you want to disagree with me, don’t just say “that’s your opinion”. I challenge you to make an argument using reason.

There is no need to make the argument. The Holy Father has made the decision. As a Devout Catholic, please adhere to it.

Peace
James

 

[Dauphin]

One can find the EF or the OF to be more satisfying, but that doesn’t make one or the other objectively better.
Such comments are denegrating to the fullness of faith and the glory of God in the sacrafice of the mass.

Peace
James

I’m not arguing that the EF is superior because I personally find it “more satisfying”. It’s superior in the sense that its prayers are more doctrinally exact and more penetential and humble. Anyone who seriously examines the two liturgies can see this.

The Catholic faith doesn’t in any way require me to hold that these two liturgies are equal.

 

[Dauphin]

When you make a statement such as one form is objectively better it can be taken by the ininformed as more than just an opinion. This can be harmful
As to your believing it to be the “correct opinion”, how many opinions do you hold that you think are wrong. Ther must be some since you feel the need to distinguish.

I don’t feel that any opinion I hold is wrong. However, the person I was responding to asserted that my opinion is wrong simply because it’s my opinion. I was pointing out the logical absurdity of this argument.

Actually yes it does. The Holy Father has declared it. That is the end of it.

No, you’re wrong. The Holy Father has nowhere declared that these two forms of the Mass are equal, or that Catholics are bound to hold that one is as good as the other. What you’re saying is simply false.

There is no need to make the argument. The Holy Father has made the decision. As a Devout Catholic, please adhere to it.

Peace
James

What decision are you referring to? The Holy Father has said nothing authoritative which affects our discussion in the slightest. You’re invoking him in order to scare me away from my opinion, but it won’t work.

 

[rosebudsal]

Dave,

I’m a cradle Catholic who prefers the NO too. I went to a Low Mass in the EF. I thought it was lovely and the profound silence of it all was quite mesmerizing, the priest was very good, he explained so much about the EF and seemed to be teaching those of us in the pews all about it, the traditions and history, as well as as a bit of the catechism too. It was a nice Mass, but it wasn’t my cup of tea. The guy sitting next to me prayed the rosary the whole time, which I suppose people do during both forms of the Mass, but it was the first time I encountered that. It didn’t bother me, as I was trying to follow along with the priest and the missal/guidebook which was so helpful. Still, it’s not going to be my weekly choice for Mass. I’m spoiled because I have a very good NO parish.

The thing that’s wonderful about the Pope’s Motu Proprio allowing wider access to the EF of the Mass is that people again have more of a choice. I know in some places there is much more resistance to the EF of the Mass and it will take time to see it flourish in some dioceses than others.

I appreciate the EF. It’s rich in tradition, ritual, symbols and everything else that I love about Catholicism, but am glad we have the OF too.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

When will it end. Its like movie critics rushing to the wires to try to put out their opinions before anyone else’s hits the press. I have said it before and I will say it again, and THINK ABOUT IT. What we are talking about is the reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross being played out in front of us. Would any of you dare stand in front of Jesus and tell him the things you are saying about the mass. If you would not, they why tell it to others. It is a mass with infinite merit, and is not any less efficacious than any other mass regardless of the form. Each mass is infinite in merit and therefore each is as good and holy and sacred as any other mass. Debate that with Jesus and see where you end up.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Yes, it’s my opinion. I also believe it to be the correct opinion. It’s always funny when someone says “that’s your opinion” as if I don’t already know it. How does the fact that it’s my opinion change whether the opinion is correct or incorrect? In reality, this is liberal code language; it means that every opinion is naturally as good as the next, which is absurd.

Simply because both are permitted, this does not meant that the two liturgies are just as good as one another. The two points simply don’t logically flow. There’s absolutely no argument there - your argument requires me to hold liberal assumptions which I simply don’t hold.

The Traditional Latin Mass has objectively superior prayer, which more accurately and fully expounds the Church’s doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, and better express the humility with which we should approach God with our petitions and offerings. If you want to disagree with me, don’t just say “that’s your opinion”. I challenge you to make an argument using reason.

I’m not using liberal code language, I’m disagreeing with your statement that the TLM has ‘objectively superior prayer’. I think there is a difference in emphasis. The prayers of the TLM express our humility. The prayers of the NO express more of a confidence in God’s mercy and a joyful hope.

Which prayers are more beautiful is truly a matter of opinion. I prefer more direct and intimate and less flowery prayer.

As far as better expounding the church’s doctrine on the sacrifice of the Mass, give an example that I can respond to. In the NO, when the priest says, “through Him and with Him and in Him is to Thee, God the Father almighty, all glory and honor forever and ever.” and we respond, “Amen!” we are affirming Christ’s eternal sacrifice which is both made present by means of, and symbolized by, the consecration of the bread and wine. This is the church’s doctrine.

 

[Dauphin]

When will it end. Its like movie critics rushing to the wires to try to put out their opinions before anyone else’s hits the press. I have said it before and I will say it again, and THINK ABOUT IT. What we are talking about is the reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross being played out in front of us. Would any of you dare stand in front of Jesus and tell him the things you are saying about the mass. If you would not, they why tell it to others. It is a mass with infinite merit, and is not any less efficacious than any other mass regardless of the form. Each mass is infinite in merit and therefore each is as good and holy and sacred as any other mass. Debate that with Jesus and see where you end up.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

You’ve consistently attacked this strawman position when you are unable or unwilling to respond to the argument that the EF is a superior liturgy. Nobody is arguing that the sacrifice is any different - simply that the prayers of the Mass are superior in one versus the other.

I would most certainly make my argument before Christ, if He asked my position.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

As for the EF Mass. I think many parishes are overdoing it with the High Mass. They are almost making it a production instead of a Mass. I think the Low Mass would be more to the liking of many.

I agree with this. My experience of the mass prior to Vatican II was mostly the low mass. We had 7 or more masses on Sunday and only one was a high mass.

 

[Dauphin]

I’m not using liberal code language, I’m disagreeing with your statement that the TLM has ‘objectively superior prayer’. I think there is a difference in emphasis. The prayers of the TLM express our humility. The prayers of the NO express more of a confidence in God’s mercy and a joyful hope.

When approaching the altar of God, and receiving that which we are infinitely unworthy to receive, humility and penance are more appropriate. The EF is a superior liturgy because its prayers are more appropriate for the occasion, and also because they more clearly and explicitly expound the Church’s doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Which prayers are more beautiful is truly a matter of opinion. I prefer more direct and intimate and less flowery prayer.

A matter of good taste vs. bad taste, perhaps.

As far as better expounding the church’s doctrine on the sacrifice of the Mass, give an example that I can respond to. In the NO, when the priest says, “through Him and with Him and in Him is to Thee, God the Father almighty, all glory and honor forever and ever.” and we respond, “Amen!” we are affirming Christ’s eternal sacrifice which is both made present by means of, and symbolized by, the consecration of the bread and wine. This is

the church’s doctrine.

An example? Not once is it mentioned in the Novus Ordo that the Mass is a sacrifice offered up for the remission of sins. This doctrine is so essential to the Mass, that its omission is a scandal.

Here are the fuller, more doctrinally precise prayers from the offertory of the Traditional Latin Mass, which so clearly and beautifully propose the doctrine of sacrifice. This is from a post I made a while ago:

“Receive, O Holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host which I, thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my own countless sins, offenses, and negligences, and for all here present; as also for all faithful Christians, living or dead; that it may avail for their salvation unto life eternal. Amen.”

Here, it is made clear that the sacrifice is being offered up for the sins of the living and the dead.

“O God, Who in creating human nature didst marvelously enoble it, and hast still more marvelously renewed it; grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity Who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.”

This clearly enunciates the reality that we partake of God’s Divinity when we receive the Eucharist. It reminds us of our mystical union with Christ by the life of grace.

“We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency that, in sight of Thy Divine Majesty, it may ascend with the savor of sweetness, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.”

Again, we are offering Christ’s sacrifice for the salvation of the world. The doctrine of the Church concerning the nature of the Mass is made extremely clear. This continues in the next prayer:

"In an humble spirit, and a contrite heart, may we be received by Thee O Lord; and may our sacrifice be so offered up in Thy sight this day that it may be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.

Come, O Sanctifier, almighty eternal God, and bless this sacrifice prepared for Thy Holy Name"

It’s not my intention to “bash” the Novus Ordo, but I can’t see how anyone can deny how dramatically the Catholicity of these prayers, along with so many others, contrasts with what is heard during the Novus Ordo.

 

[laudamus_te]

We had a “sung high Mass” this afternoon in our parish; Miss Bonnie, her father, and I attended. I won’t again.

The celebrant was wearing a microphone, but he apparently chose not to use it. The only time he was understandable was when he delivered the homily at the ambo. There were a few other times that you could tell he was speaking, but I couldn’t discern the language, let alone what he was saying. Most of the time there was no voice audible at all.

The choir (three young ladies in black skirts, white blouses, and white mantillas) was audible, but incomprehensible; most of the time they sounded like they were vocalizing sequential vowels to a musical line.

Part of the time I was reminded of the music-less ballet rehearsal scene from Amadeus–steps, gestures, and movements with no clue as to why they were being performed. I was also reminded of the passage where St. Paul was condemning the indiscriminate use of tongues during corporate worship–“Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?” Following the script is impossible if the speaker can’t or won’t be heard. If there was a “Pater Noster,” the priest said it silently to himself. Likewise, there was no benediction–only “Ite missa est.”

If this is the EF, then I’d rather not, thank you. I’ll take the reverent OF Masses that our parish has, or that the OLAM Shrine has.

DaveBj

DaveBj, it sounds to me like you attended a typical Traditional Latin High Mass. You are not supposed to hear the priest, except when he is at the ambo, or the few times during the Mass when the rubrics require him to raise his voice. However, you should have been able to hear the Pater Noster (perhaps the accoustics in the church are inadequate… you were sitting far back… I don’t know), and there should have been a blessing before the reading of the Last Gospel (unless it is a requiem mass - no blessing).

The music which you described as “vocalizing sequential vowels to a musical line” is called Gregorian Chant. It is what is sung at Traditional Latin High Mass.

I hope you will give it another try.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

You’ve consistently attacked this strawman position when you are unable or unwilling to respond to the argument that the EF is a superior liturgy. Nobody is arguing that the sacrifice is any different - simply that the prayers of the Mass are superior in one versus the other.

I would most certainly make my argument before Christ, if He asked my position.

So would I. We are talking opinion here. Fact is that yours and mine are different. Thats all. There is nothing objective as to superior liturgy for either form. It is all subjective, whether you accept that small fact or not.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Dauphin]

So would I. We are talking opinion here. Fact is that yours and mine are different. Thats all. There is nothing objective as to superior liturgy for either form. It is all subjective, whether you accept that small fact or not.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

I don’t accept that this is a subjective matter, or purely a matter of taste.

I believe that the prayers of the Traditional Latin Mass expound the doctrine of the Church much more fully and effectively, that they are more humble and penetential, and that the Novus Ordo omits or obscures certain doctrines to its detriment.

I think it’s entirely fair to say that the EF is a superior liturgy, since its prayers are objectively more suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Conservative]

Not knowing the parish - or how well trained / versed those who sang the EF High Mass were - I can only wonder particularly about the Benediction. Usually, at a High Mass, the priest will sing it, “Benedicat vos Omnipotens Dei. Pater, et Filium et Spirito Sancto.” (I’m doing this from memory, so asking God’s pardon, if I’m missing the wording/spelling.) Do you mean to say the priest didn’t speak or sing those words? Might have just been in error. Don’t be turned off if delivery by singers, microphone issues - or perhaps a priest who may have been trained/more well-versed in NO and (I’m guessing) left the singing to a choir and accidentally left out the Benediction. Accidents happen. But I understand your missing it. The Benediction is a beautiful moment (sung or not) since we understand what the priest is saying - even though in Latin - and know when to sign ourselves - choir or no.

My question is why don’t they try a low EF Mass - And why would this cause you to say EF is not for you? Don’ t blame things that may have gone wrong with “delivery” on the Mass itself.

 

[allhers]

To the OP, Maybe it was all of their first time too??

 

[rosebudsal]

My question is why don’t they try a low EF Mass - And why would this cause you to say EF is not for you? Don’ t blame things that may have gone wrong with “delivery” on the Mass itself.

That’s my question too. Maybe the priest is more adept with it, but if he’s just learning the EF, I’d think he’d want to master the Low Mass and work his way up to a Sung High Mass. I’m sure a Sung High Mass is beautiful. Where I live, we just finished (ok, it was about three weeks ago) a novena of lovely, NO Masses in honor of the Blessed Mother and I’m still in awe of how wonderful the OF can be, when done well. I imagine in the days of Latin, the novena was even more beautiful.