First Holy Communion and Confirmation on the same day?

  • Thread starter Thread starter hope21
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
CB_Catholic said:
I** am of the opinion that the Western Church should return to the Eastern practice of receiving all three Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist at the same time, starting with infants.** I think people should be sealed with the Holy Spirit and be given Eucharist from the beginning of their lives. They can begin to understand these mysteries as they grow up , as most people, even in the current system don’t have a clue, even though they were older when they received the Sacraments. Eastern Catholics don’t suffer one bit in their understanding of the sacraments just because they started in infancy. But I am most likely in the minority.
Click to expand...
I’m with you.

I think we pretend that our children understand what they are receiving.

They don’t earn their Sacraments with knowledge.

We should stop pretending and allow babies to receive all three on the same day. 👍
 
coachdennis said:
The sanctifying grace of the sacrament is more important.
Click to expand...
It is but AFAIK, Baptism initiates and Penance restores sanctifying grace. I’m surprised Penance has not been mentioned in this thread. And if communion is allowed at a very early age, at what point do you teach that confession is necessary to receive? How would that work in those churches (like the Orthodox) or cultures where confession is generally required before communion? Just some questions I would have.
 
Summa Theologiae
St. Thomas Aquinas:
I answer that, In this sacrament, as stated above (1 and 4), the Holy Ghost is given to the baptized for strength: just as He was given to the apostles on the day of Pentecost, as we read in Acts 2; and just as He was given to the baptized by the imposition of the apostles’ hands, as related in Acts 8:17. Now it has been proved in I, 43, 3 that the Holy Ghost is not sent or given except with sanctifying grace. Consequently it is evident that sanctifying grace is bestowed in this sacrament.
Click to expand...
First Confession is celebrated one year prior to receiving Confirmation and Eucharist in our diocese which observes the restored order of sacraments.
 
Elizium23 said:
First Confession is celebrated one year prior to receiving Confirmation and Eucharist in our diocese which observes the restored order of sacraments.
Click to expand...
A whole year between First Confession and First Communion?

One usually speaks of receiving the sacraments as receiving both confession and communion.
 
I always heard that Confirmation got moved to teen years as a way to force families to keep their kids in catechism classes.
I does, but then, you get the kids who see it as a card they need punched.
I went to a Catholic school and got confirmed at 12. Not a lot of prep, just get dressed up and be able to answer a question about the Holy Spirit in case the Bishop asks, which he didn’t.
I see benefits to doing it both ways.
 
hope21 said:
My daughter will be doing the sacramental programme this year, and the priest wants to hold her first Holy Communion and Confirmation on the same day as part of the Sunday mass.

In my experience, the sacraments are usually done separately and something about this arrangement doesn’t feel right to me - it will be done by a visiting priest as our parish is very small and it feels like the sacraments are being crammed in to fit into his busy schedule.

I’m just looking for some opinions really - do you think it is better to have confirmation and first Holy Communion separate, or is it just me over-analysing it?
Click to expand...
The restored order in the Latin Catholic Church is the ancient practice and is the canonical norm for the eastern Catholic churches. If fact all three Holy Mysteries of Christian Initiation are given together in the Byzantine Catholic church (and others). Following are two examples of restored order in the Latin Catholic Church.
On May 15, 2005 Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted promulgated the new Policy and Guidelines concerning the restoration of the order of the Sacraments of Initiation in the Diocese of Phoenix. …
**
5. Why is the Diocese of Phoenix changing the age of Confirmation?**
By placing Confirmation at this age, the Diocese of Phoenix will be following the natural sequence of the Sacraments of Christian Initiation: Baptism, Then Confirmation, and then reception of First Eucharist. Pope Paul VI stated the following:
The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and received in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity (CCC 1212).
It should also be noted that this is the sequence followed by RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) which requires that children and adults in the catechumenate receive all three sacraments together, even if the children are younger than the age at which the Catholic children of the parish are routinely confirmed and by the Eastern Catholic Churches for infants and adults alike (CCC 1232).
Code: 
     In addition, by placing Confirmation prior to the reception of First          Eucharist it makes it easier to view the Eucharist as the "summit" of          Christian initiation (CCC 1233).


     Therefore, all baptized persons who have reached the age of reason          should be appropriately prepared and receive the Sacrament of          Confirmation before the reception of the Holy Eucharist.
ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ordsacinit.htmRome, Italy, Mar 8, 2012 / 03:58 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Bishop Samuel Aquila of Fargo said he is delighted to have first-hand papal approval for changing the order by which children in his diocese receive the sacraments. …

Over the past seven years the Diocese of Fargo has changed the typical order of the sacraments of initiation. Instead of confirmation coming third and at an older age, it is now conferred on children at a younger age and prior to First Communion.

Bishop Aquila said he made the changes because “it really puts the emphasis on the Eucharist as being what completes the sacraments of initiation” and on confirmation as “sealing and completing baptism.”

When the sacraments are conferred in this order, he said, it becomes more obvious that “both baptism and confirmation lead to the Eucharist.” This sacramental assistance helps Catholics live “that intimate relationship of being the beloved sons and daughters of the Father in our daily lives,” he added.

The Bishop of Fargo said the changes have also distanced the Sacrament of Confirmation from “some false theologies that see it as being a sacrament of maturity or as a sacrament for ‘me choosing God.’”

Instead, young people in Fargo now have “the fullness of the spirit and the completion of the gifts of the spirit” to assist them in “living their lives within the world,” especially “in the trials they face in junior high and high school.”
…

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/
 
ProVobis said:
A whole year between First Confession and First Communion?

One usually speaks of receiving the sacraments as receiving both confession and communion.
Click to expand...
Yes, my son did the same. The kids, of course, are expected to regularly practice the Sacrament of Reconcilliation in that intervening year, and are also receive Sacramental Absolution again prior to the reception of First Holy Communion.

What would be your objection to participating in Confession for the first time a year prior.
 
Brendan said:
Yes, my son did the same. The kids, of course, are expected to regularly practice the Sacrament of Reconcilliation in that intervening year, and are also receive Sacramental Absolution again prior to the reception of First Holy Communion.

What would be your objection to participating in Confession for the first time a year prior.
Click to expand...
If the child has reached the age of reason and has sufficient understanding of culpability for his or her sins and sufficient understanding of the Sacrament of Confession, what is the reasoning for delaying admission to Holy Communion? Of course, I ask this taking the western perspective in mind. In my own Eastern Catholic tradition, infants are chrismated and communed immediately following baptism.
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

My little girl has made her first confession, so our parish is following the revised reconciliation followed by confirmation, followed by communion pattern.

It does seem to be just me who feels that having confirmation and First Holy Communion on the same day would somehow result in her experience of confirmation being overshadowed by communion. And so, she would have less of a regard for the 2 sacraments.

I wasn’t aware that the 2 sacraments were done at the same time in other churches.

I think I may also need to read up a bit on the sacraments themselves, as (after reading this thread) I probably don’t have enough understanding of eg. confirmation as I should have! :o
 
RyanBlack said:
If the child has reached the age of reason and has sufficient understanding of culpability for his or her sins and sufficient understanding of the Sacrament of Confession, what is the reasoning for delaying admission to Holy Communion? Of course, I ask this taking the western perspective in mind. In my own Eastern Catholic tradition, infants are chrismated and communed immediately following baptism.
Click to expand...
Preparation time and organizational issues. We’ve already decided to cram two sacraments into one ceremony and one year of preparation, isn’t it a bit much to ask kids to prepare for all three all at once?
 
FrDavid96 said:
I’ve never hear that before: the part about Vatican II changing the order of the sacraments.

I’d like to read more on this.

Can you tell me which Vatican II document(s) speak about changing the order of the sacraments? Could you give me the name of the document and the paragraph number, please?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
The order of Christian Initiation. In 1932, the Sacred Congregation on Sacraments said, “It is truly opportune and more conformable to the nature and effects of the sacrament of confirmation, that children should only approach the sacred table for the first time after the reception of the sacrament of confirmation …”

– Faith Facts: Answers to Catholic Questions, Volume 2 edited by Leon J. Suprenant, JR., Philip C. L. Gray, p. 4. (Emmaus Road Publishing, Mar 1, 2003)
  1. From apostolic times until about the fifth century the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation were given in one continuous rite of initiation, which culminated in a Christian’s admission to the Eucharist.
  2. In the Middle Ages (5th-13th centuries) Baptism and First Eucharist were administered together at infancy, with a later Confirmation by the bishop in very early childhood.
  3. During the thirteenth to sixteenth century, infant Baptism was the norm but Confirmation was celebrated at the age of discretion (seven), with First Eucharist between the ages of ten and fourteen.
  4. By the sixteenth century until the nineteenth century infant baptism was the norm, Confirmation was between seven and fifteen years, followed by First Eucharist.
  5. In modern times infant baptism, First Eucharist at the age of discretion, and Confirmation between seven and eighteen became common.
  6. The restored order for children is similar to that of the sixteenth century, but early, and for adults, RCIA, is like apostolic times, so it is not a full restoration to before the fifth century.
B = Baptism, C = Confirmation (Chrismation), E = Eucharist, … = time delay

Infant baptism:
  1. BCE
  2. BE…C
  3. B…C…E
    4) B…CE
  4. B…E…C
    6) B…CE
 
Vico said:
The order of Christian Initiation. In 1932, the Sacred Congregation on Sacraments said, “It is truly opportune and more conformable to the nature and effects of the sacrament of confirmation, that children should only approach the sacred table for the first time after the reception of the sacrament of confirmation …”

– Faith Facts: Answers to Catholic Questions, Volume 2 edited by Leon J. Suprenant, JR., Philip C. L. Gray, p. 4. (Emmaus Road Publishing, Mar 1, 2003)
  1. From apostolic times until about the fifth century the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation were given in one continuous rite of initiation, which culminated in a Christian’s admission to the Eucharist.
  2. In the Middle Ages (5th-13th centuries) Baptism and First Eucharist were administered together at infancy, with a later Confirmation by the bishop in very early childhood.
  3. During the thirteenth to sixteenth century, infant Baptism was the norm but Confirmation was celebrated at the age of discretion (seven), with First Eucharist between the ages of ten and fourteen.
  4. By the sixteenth century until the nineteenth century infant baptism was the norm, Confirmation was between seven and fifteen years, followed by First Eucharist.
  5. In modern times infant baptism, First Eucharist at the age of discretion, and Confirmation between seven and eighteen became common.
  6. The restored order for children is similar to that of the sixteenth century, but early, and for adults, RCIA, is like apostolic times, so it is not a full restoration to before the fifth century.
B = Baptism, C = Confirmation (Chrismation), E = Eucharist, … = time delay

Infant baptism:
  1. BCE
  2. BE…C
  3. B…C…E
    4) B…CE
  4. B…E…C
    6) B…CE
Click to expand...
Which of those 2 sources do you consider to be a Vatican II document?

Perhaps you missed my question the first time around, so I’ll repeat it here:
FrDavid96 said:
I’ve never hear that before: the part about Vatican II changing the order of the sacraments.

I’d like to read more on this.

Can you tell me which Vatican II document(s) speak about changing the order of the sacraments? Could you give me the name of the document and the paragraph number, please?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
Elizium23 said:
Preparation time and organizational issues. We’ve already decided to cram two sacraments into one ceremony and one year of preparation, isn’t it a bit much to ask kids to prepare for all three all at once?
Click to expand...
I think that “cramming” sacraments into one ceremony is a horrible way to look at it. The sacraments of initiation naturally belong together, even if they have been temporally separated for good reason. It is strange to think that it is cramming the sacraments together. Are the sacraments crammed together when adults or older children are received into the church and receive all three sacraments of initiation in the same ceremony? In terms of preparation and organization, how difficult is it to include the children receiving communion into a Confirmation Mass? In a Confirmation Mass for teenagers, don’t the teens receive Holy Communion? Don’t they generally go to Confession as a class in preparation for the Sacrament? Organizational issues are only an issue if the “ceremony” takes precedence over the sacrament.

Of course it isn’t a bit much to ask kids to prepare for all three at once. A seven year old preparing for Confirmation doesn’t really require significantly more preparation than a seven year old preparing for First Communion. The curriculum for either sacrament would focus on the sacraments of initiation. The sacraments do not stand alone and any good curriculum would integrate our understanding of the sacraments of initiation and the role of confession anyway.

Children who have reached the age of reason are bound to the Church law requiring the reception of Holy Communion at least once each year. Since these children have had their first confession, their parents and pastors have certainly determined that they have reached the age of reason. To delay the reception of Holy Communion deprives them of the opportunity to keep church law on this matter.

I invite you to read the words of Pope Pius X:
… It happened that children in their innocence were forced away from the embrace of Christ and deprived of the food of their interior life; and from this it also happened that in their youth, destitute of this strong help, surrounded by so many temptations, they lost their innocence and fell into vicious habits even before tasting of the Sacred Mysteries. And even if a thorough instruction and a careful Sacramental Confession should precede Holy Communion, which does not everywhere occur, still the loss of first innocence is always to be deplored and might have been avoided by reception of the Eucharist in more tender years.
No less worthy of condemnation is that practice which prevails in many places prohibiting from Sacramental Confession children who have not yet made their First Holy Communion, or of not giving them absolution. Thus it happens that they, perhaps having fallen into serious sin, remain in that very dangerous state for a long time…

The Council of Trent, indeed, teaches otherwise when it calls the Eucharist, “An antidote whereby we may be freed from daily faults and be preserved from mortal sins.” …

The abuses which we are condemning are due to the fact that they who distinguished one age of discretion for Penance and another for the Eucharist did so in error. **The Lateran Council required one and the same age for reception of either Sacrament when it imposed the one obligation of Confession and Communion. **
Therefore, the age of discretion for Confession is the time when one can distinguish between right and wrong, that is, when one arrives at a certain use of reason, and so similarly, for Holy Communion is required the age when one can distinguish between the Bread of the Holy Eucharist and ordinary bread-again the age at which a child attains the use of reason.
Click to expand...
If children are capable of confession, they we assume that they are capable of sin. Why would we acknowledge that reality, yet prevent them from the “antidote whereby we may be freed from daily faults and be preserved from mortal sins.”?
 
Doesn’t the issue really come down to the understanding of Confirmation, its institution, its history, and how it has been perceived throughout the years?
It’s my understanding that it was originally the blessing of the Bishop confirming you in membership of the Church.
In our lifetimes, it kind of morphed into a rite of passage (you should pardon the pun) from childlike Catholic to adult Catholic.
I think maybe that is why some parents are so alarmed at the change to move it to a much younger age. They think there is a whole range of classes that will be missed or glossed over. I know at my parish, Confirmation is a huge deal. Lots of hours of study, an emphasis on making a personal decision to serve Christ, etc. In recent years we as Church (in some locales) have made a big deal out of Confirmation coming later…having a lot of study associated with it, and it being the catapult into adult faith.
Now we’re talking about putting it back where it was originally intended.
Is this an issue of church history?
I’m asking. I certainly don’t know the answers to this one…🤷
 
ProVobis said:
It is but AFAIK, Baptism initiates and Penance restores sanctifying grace. I’m surprised Penance has not been mentioned in this thread. And if communion is allowed at a very early age, at what point do you teach that confession is necessary to receive? How would that work in those churches (like the Orthodox) or cultures where confession is generally required before communion? Just some questions I would have.
Click to expand...
It happens as part of a gradual understanding, just as their understanding of communion is gradual. It helps tremendously if the priest mentions it in his homilies from time to time. 🙂 My oldest children made their first confessions at the age of 6 and 5 after our priest preached a homily about confession and they both realized their need for it. They asked me if they could go, we talked to Father about it together, he asked them a few basic questions to make sure they understood what they were asking, and then he heard their confessions. My 7 year old just asked for confession as well, under similar circumstances, and the same thing happened. Then my 5 year old asked me “Shouldn’t confession be for everyone?” I suspect she’ll go soon. Of course, this only works in a family and church culture in which the faith is practiced fully. If the ECF (Eastern Christian Formation) class is the first time they’ve ever heard the word “sin”, it probably wouldn’t work very well.
 
In my diocese for several years now the children have received the sacrament of confirmation and their first holy communion on the same day in both the OF and EF. One of the differences is that in the EF both sacraments are not received during Holy Mass. The children are confirmed before Mass using the rite in use in 1962. We have a new bishop being installed next month, so we will see what he does. But, with our previous bishop, he of course did the EF Confirmation. Our chaplain celebrated the Mass, but the children received their first holy communion from the bishop.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Which of those 2 sources do you consider to be a Vatican II document?

Perhaps you missed my question the first time around, so I’ll repeat it here:
Click to expand...
No, I did not miss it, but wanted to show that the order restoration was an issue between the two Vatican councils, which would naturally lead to incorporation into the synod. Neither document is Vatican II. Usige said"Vatican II called for the return of not only the permanent diaconate, but also the original order of the sacraments."

These documents from Vatican II do emphasize the original ordering of Christian Initiation and are always shown in that order, and the purpose and relationship are elaborated.SC 71. The rite of confirmation is to be revised and the intimate connection which this sacrament has with the whole of Christian initiation is to be more clearly set forth; for this reason it is fitting for candidates to renew their baptismal promises just before they are confirmed. Confirmation may be given within the Mass when convenient; when it is given outside the Mass, the rite that is used should be introduced by a formula to be drawn up for this purpose.

LG 11. It is through the sacraments and the exercise of the virtues that the sacred nature and organic structure of the priestly community is brought into operation. Incorporated in the Church through baptism, the faithful are destined by the baptismal character for the worship of the Christian religion; reborn as sons of God they must confess before men the faith which they have received from God through the Church (4*). They are more perfectly bound to the Church by the sacrament of Confirmation, and the Holy Spirit endows them with special strength so that they are more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith, both by word and by deed, as true witnesses of Christ (5*). Taking part in the eucharistic sacrifice, which is the fount and apex of the whole Christian life, they offer the Divine Victim to God, and offer themselves along with It.(6*)

OC 13. The established practice in respect of the minister of Confirmation that has obtained from most early times in the Eastern Church should be fully restored. Therefore, priests validly confer this sacrament, using chrism blessed by a patriarch or a bishop.(14)

OE 14. All Eastern Rite priests, either in conjunction with Baptism or separately from it, can confer this sacrament validly on all the faithful of any rite including the Latin; licitly, however, only if the regulations both of the common and the particular law are observed.(15) Priests, also, of Latin Rite, in accordance with the faculties they enjoy in respect of the administration of this sacrament, validly administer it also to the faithful of Eastern Churches; without prejudice to the rite, observing in regard to licitness the regulations both of the common and of the particular law.(16)

PO 5. … the Eucharist shows itself as the source and the apex of the whole work of preaching the Gospel. Those under instruction are introduced by stages to a sharing in the Eucharist, and the faithful, already marked with the seal of Baptism and Confirmation, are through the reception of the Eucharist fully joined to the Body of Christ.

AG 36. As members of the living Christ, incorporated into Him and made like unto Him through baptism and through confirmation and the Eucharist, all the faithful are duty - bound to cooperate in the expansion and spreading out of His Body, to bring it to fullness as soon as may be (Eph. 4:13).
ewtn.com/library/councils/v2all.htm
 
Well, babochka, you can take it up with my bishop if you do not like separating Confession from Eucharist and Confirmation, because we have the restored order of sacraments in my diocese, and that is how we have done it ever since. I personally think that it is extremely useful for children to accustom themselves to regularly celebrating Penance for a little time before they receive the Eucharist for the first time. That leaves a whole school year to talk about mortal sin, its effects, how to recognize it, and how to maintain your state of grace for the sacraments to come.
 
pianistclare said:
I think maybe that is why some parents are so alarmed at the change to move it to a much younger age. They think there is a whole range of classes that will be missed or glossed over. I know at my parish, Confirmation is a huge deal. Lots of hours of study, an emphasis on making a personal decision to serve Christ, etc. In recent years we as Church (in some locales) have made a big deal out of Confirmation coming later…having a lot of study associated with it, and it being the catapult into adult faith.
Now we’re talking about putting it back where it was originally intended.
Is this an issue of church history?
I’m asking. I certainly don’t know the answers to this one…🤷
Click to expand...
Confirmation should be a big deal. Having been confirmed, having sponsored three candidates, and having served a confirmation administered by the cardinal himself, I know what preparations we used to go through, including selecting a saint whose name we wished to take upon confirmation. (And as I remember that was the fun part of being confirmed.) Also there is no reason that a bond similar to a god parent can’t develop afterward by the sponsor. That is valuable in itself IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top