First Jehovah's witnesses to knock at my door

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I have had an emergency situation develop that requires my attention. Since I won’t be around for the next few days to follow through with what I hoped to with Logically, I writing this as I travel.

God’s gift of eternal life is a reward and we have this reward to look forward to.

Your Father who sees in secret will reward you.–Matthew 6:18.

God expects us to hope in our reward.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.–Hebrews 11:6.

From the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward—Colossians 3:24.

See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.–Revelation 22:4.

Ecclesiastes says the dead “have no reward.” Since the underlying message of Scripture does not contradict itself, obviously the text cannot be read as a literal statement about reward for the dead.

But the dead do have a hope of a future reward. Catholics believe in the resurrection of the dead and life eternal when the world is made new again. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1042-1050) If the Bible is being literal when it says “never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun,” how can it be said that the dead will be raised in Paradise?

The living can be in Sheol. Jonah 2:2 proves that.

Numbers 16:33 does too when it says:

So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol.

And Psalm 139:7, 8 says God can be present there:

Where can I go from your spirit?
Or where can I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

I am not saying that Ecclesiastes 10 is not true when it says that there is “no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol.” I am saying that it isn’t literal.

Jonah prayed while there. Those who sided with Korah knew they were being punished as they went to their death in Sheol. And God, who is all-knowing and all-wise, can be present there as well.

So it isn’t that the Bible is contradicting itself, it’s that you have a mistaken view of Ecclesiastes. The author was waxing philosophically and writing in cynical metaphors. He calls everything in and about life vanity, saying “all things are wearisome.” (Ecclesiastes 1:2, 8) But then he later admits that some works are not done in vain. (12:1, 13) His statements are spoken from the view of someone suffering disillusionment with life.–See 5:12.

The author also wrote at a time when the Jewish understanding regarding life after death was still incomplete. Eventually things changed to the point that many in Judaism by the Second Temple period believed in life after death.

Being of Jewish heritage myself I can attest that Jews also understand Ecclesiastes this way, that the author’s words offer not a literal but cynical view of desperation, much like some psalms have the author lamenting or complaining to God. The author’s words on death are not meant to be a literal description but a lamentation on how useless life seemed to him during this time of disillusion for the author. He eventually comes to the conclusion at the end that one needs to rely on God’s wisdom and not their own view of matters, but before this the writing is about what the author has come to believe about existence–that it is all in vain, which we know and he claims by the end of the book that it is not.

You have to admit that though our conclusions are different, the one I embrace as a Catholic and a Jew doesn’t make a contradiction of Scripture. It fits in nicely from our understanding. That’s why we don’t define death by what is written in Ecclesiastes 9:5. It is part of a lament of desperation, not a theological definition.

You also have to admit that much of what you charged me with, especially in your last comment was uncalled for and highly incorrect. Can you imagine me, a Jew, denying the valid and truth of Scripture? The Scriptures of Ecclesiastes were believed in before you Gentiles ever knew of them. If I denied them, I might as well deny my existence!

I’m sorry you don’t believe it is right to consider God’s gift of eternal life as a reward.

And I find it hurtful that as a Jehovah’s Witness you attribute motives similar to your clever friend who would use “false reasoning.” It is insulting to hear you call my above beliefs “the exact opposite of Scripture.”

Most people who study Ecclesiastes realise that the author is writing phenomenologically. or in other words it is the authors investigation and description of conscious experience in all its varieties without reference to whether what is experienced is objectively real.
The Author is saying in Ecclesiastes 9 that this is the way death appears to the living. It is not Gods ultimate revelation about death to mankind as the JW’s would have everyone believe. And besides if the verse is followed through we then find out that the dead will no longer have a share in anything under the sun which if taken literally precludes their teaching on the resurrection. So once again we have the JW"s using the Bible in exactly the same way the Gnostics were trying to use Scripture as a mere reference book from which one can site verses to back up ones particular Ideology. They wan’t us to take one part of the verse literally and then another part of the verse non literally, to support their own teaching not the teaching of the Bible. As I said earlier this sort of dishonest use of the Bible works pretty well on those unfamiliar with the subject matter and it is those unfamiliar with the subject matter that the JW is after to make good grist for the Watch Tower mill.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I said I would give your post priority. I have one post to make that I have already written and then I will think about what your excellent questions.
I will reply soon. (as in- within a day or so)

Thank you. You made me feel special or something LOL That is a big deal for someone who has always lived the motto “Don’t be special like everyone. Just be normal, like no one”

Also, Just want to add something to my question. I asked if there was any truth to the rumors that The Watch tower has made prophesies that have not come true even names dates for the second coming of Christ (I am pretty sure scripture says that NOBODY knows the time or the hour, does that not include the year? Remember what you said in a early post about using “Clever reasoning” around scripture? ) I would like to say I meant for that question to include The founder of the JW organization (as we know it today) Charles Taze Russell or any of his successors. Also, if it is not too much to ask, what is your opinion on the fact that I have read that The JW religion is just a offshoot of the Adventist movement, which later also included “The seventh day Adventist” If that is too much, take your time. Not like you are getting paid to do this You are a very patient dude. Take care.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Ooh, excellent. Where do you live?

The above is Logically’s response to the post by Yankeeredneck saying he enjoyed Jw"s coming to his door. And it is obvious from Logically’s response to most of the posts here that his only interest in Catholicism is in trying to prove it wrong and JW’s right.

I would like to point out to those who may be following this thread from start to finish a few tactics the Watch Tower encourages amongst it’s members that Logically has displayed here so that you may be on your mettle the next time a JW comes to your door.

My first post stated that the JW is only interested in the naïve and vulnerable and that they will disappear as soon as one displays even a pedestrian knowledge of the subject matter. And Logically has displayed that he is no different and has learnt the Watch Tower system well.

**WATCH TOWER TACTIC:
1.Quoting eminent persons that appear to support their position out of context
We saw Logically do this with Sir Isaac Newton in an earlier post, and when he was corrected there was no response or apology just a narrowing down of who to engage with and who not to.
2. Attempting to discredit by manipulating facts and scripture.
This is classic Watch Tower tactics. Logically spent some time trying to discredit the Church on its use of images, probably not realising that the Church has been dealing with this one since the Iconoclast heresy. However when corrected and challenged about the Watch Tower use of images and in particular their use of the Image of YHWH which they produce in the millions, once again no response.
Also here we had Logically trying to say that the Catholic Church invented the doctrine of a fiery Hell and when pointed out that these were actually the words of Christ, once again no response. Just a narrowing down of who to engage and who not to.
3. The use of Subordination Theology.
This was the main tactic of the Arians to try and reduce Christ to just another creature. When it was pointed out to him that this Subordination was only relational and that to pursue this line further a defence of all the scriptures which apply attributes that can only be given to God but also applied to Christ (most of which the WT have falsified in their NW translation) would be required. No response.
4. The use of scripture either out of context or incompletely.
We saw Logically use this tactic when talking about the JW teaching on death and the resurrection. He quite rightly quoted Martha in John 11 saying that the dead will rise on the last day. But then leaves out the whole point of the passage when Christ responds by saying
25 Jesus said to her; I am the resurrection, and the life: *he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
26 And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?
Because he knew that once again to justify JW teaching on these subjects Christ’s words here can not be taken literally but must be put through the Watch Tower “Reasoning” Filter.

The above four points are all tactics the JW will employ when talking with you. Always remember that St John pointed out to us that all attacks on Christianity will all come down to an attack on Christ and an attempt to reduce or dissolve Christ to just another creature.
Jn 4:5. Christ told us that if they have attacked him they also will attack us so eventually all attacks will end up being an attack on his Church.

Logically as far as the Bible goes it has been adequately pointed out to you that it is a Catholic book and with out a correct understanding of the Word of God made flesh how can one have a correct understanding of the word of God made scripture through inspired individuals? Christianity is the teaching of the Word of God made flesh in the Incarnate Christ with out this understanding and belief the Bible does not make sense, it just becomes another book used to look up reference’s in support of man made ideology’s.
With in the Church the Bible comes alive and releases it’s true richness and beauty. At the centre of the Church is the Mass and the celebration of the Eucharist, this is our Liturgical worship of God or the community of the faithful coming together in public praise. I challenge you to get a copy of the order of the Mass and read and understand it. And to look up all the Biblical references you will find there, and not only read them but read them in the context of the Chapter the Book and the Bible.
Logically instead of spending your time trying to find ways to discredit the Church, try spending your time at least understanding the Church’s teaching first and then experience that understanding within the context of the Church’s liturgical worship. I can gaurantee you that your perspective of Christ and the Catholic Faith will not remain unchanged and Just like St Paul you will ask the question “Lord what is it you would have me do”.

*And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew near to Damascus: and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him.

4 And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?

5 And he said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.

6 And he, trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?**

 

[ShanPO]

The above is Logically’s response to the post by Yankeeredneck saying he enjoyed Jw"s coming to his door. And it is obvious from Logically’s response to most of the posts here that his only interest in Catholicism is in trying to prove it wrong and JW’s right.

I would like to point out to those who may be following this thread from start to finish a few tactics the Watch Tower encourages amongst it’s members that Logically has displayed here so that you may be on your mettle the next time a JW comes to your door.

My first post stated that the JW is only interested in the naïve and vulnerable and that they will disappear as soon as one displays even a pedestrian knowledge of the subject matter. And Logically has displayed that he is no different and has learnt the Watch Tower system well.

**WATCH TOWER TACTIC:
1.Quoting eminent persons that appear to support their position out of context
We saw Logically do this with Sir Isaac Newton in an earlier post, and when he was corrected there was no response or apology just a narrowing down of who to engage with and who not to.
2. Attempting to discredit by manipulating facts and scripture.
This is classic Watch Tower tactics. Logically spent some time trying to discredit the Church on its use of images, probably not realising that the Church has been dealing with this one since the Iconoclast heresy. However when corrected and challenged about the Watch Tower use of images and in particular their use of the Image of YHWH which they produce in the millions, once again no response.
Also here we had Logically trying to say that the Catholic Church invented the doctrine of a fiery Hell and when pointed out that these were actually the words of Christ, once again no response. Just a narrowing down of who to engage and who not to.
3. The use of Subordination Theology.
This was the main tactic of the Arians to try and reduce Christ to just another creature. When it was pointed out to him that this Subordination was only relational and that to pursue this line further a defence of all the scriptures which apply attributes that can only be given to God but also applied to Christ (most of which the WT have falsified in their NW translation) would be required. No response.
4. The use of scripture either out of context or incompletely.
We saw Logically use this tactic when talking about the JW teaching on death and the resurrection. He quite rightly quoted Martha in John 11 saying that the dead will rise on the last day. But then leaves out the whole point of the passage when Christ responds by saying
25 Jesus said to her; I am the resurrection, and the life: *he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:
26 And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?
Because he knew that once again to justify JW teaching on these subjects Christ’s words here can not be taken literally but must be put through the Watch Tower “Reasoning” Filter.

The above four points are all tactics the JW will employ when talking with you. Always remember that St John pointed out to us that all attacks on Christianity will all come down to an attack on Christ and an attempt to reduce or dissolve Christ to just another creature.
Jn 4:5. Christ told us that if they have attacked him they also will attack us so eventually all attacks will end up being an attack on his Church.

Logically as far as the Bible goes it has been adequately pointed out to you that it is a Catholic book and with out a correct understanding of the Word of God made flesh how can one have a correct understanding of the word of God made scripture through inspired individuals? Christianity is the teaching of the Word of God made flesh in the Incarnate Christ with out this understanding and belief the Bible does not make sense, it just becomes another book used to look up reference’s in support of man made ideology’s.
With in the Church the Bible comes alive and releases it’s true richness and beauty. At the centre of the Church is the Mass and the celebration of the Eucharist, this is our Liturgical worship of God or the community of the faithful coming together in public praise. I challenge you to get a copy of the order of the Mass and read and understand it. And to look up all the Biblical references you will find there, and not only read them but read them in the context of the Chapter the Book and the Bible.
Logically instead of spending your time trying to find ways to discredit the Church, try spending your time at least understanding the Church’s teaching first and then experience that understanding within the context of the Church’s liturgical worship. I can gaurantee you that your perspective of Christ and the Catholic Faith will not remain unchanged and Just like St Paul you will ask the question “Lord what is it you would have me do”.

*And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew near to Damascus: and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him.

4 And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?

5 And he said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.

6 And he, trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?**

In all fairness, I don’t think that was Logically’s motive in that response. The poster said he likes to invite them in for a glass of water on hot days, and it seems like Logically would take him up on that offer. Not to disprove Catholicism, but to enjoy a glass of water and some friendly conversation. Logically has been quite patient with the amount of time and sheer number of questions he’s answered, I can’t think of another JW who’s done that on this forum.

 

[adf417]

I accept that you are not worshiping her. (This whole debate on images or idols seems to boil down to a choice of words.)

A developing situation…

A JW I know well hears me tell them that a pseudo-JW I am in conversation with (I use “pseudo” as not knowing a better word to describe mine and your relationship) says the above statement, and they tell me that “as a true believer you cannot believe that”. “A JW that would profess that is apostate and all Catholics do worship Mary and the CC does teach this worship”.

I have long believed I cannot change the minds of my JW family and friends but this does create more questions - (sorry for more questions Logically).

I do not intend to pit JW against JW nor do I expect you to debate someone not represented on this forum but can you truly make the above statement and continue to remain in the “truth” of the JW organization? Am I missing something in your statement or maybe in the teaching of the organization?

Peace!!!

 

[Miserissima]

I would like to point out to those who may be following this thread from start to finish a few tactics the Watch Tower encourages amongst it’s members that Logically has displayed here so that you may be on your mettle the next time a JW comes to your door.

The most frustrating element of talking to a JW is not staying with one topic until it’s resolved. Ten more come up and it’s so simple to get side tracked.
DelsonJacobs didn’t get answers or a full response yet, he seemed to have just been written off.

There seems to be a lot of consulting with elders pioneers behind the scenes with Logically, but not research.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

The most frustrating element of talking to a JW is not staying with one topic until it’s resolved. Ten more come up and it’s so simple to get side tracked.
DelsonJacobs didn’t get answers or a full response yet, he seemed to have just been written off.

There seems to be a lot of consulting with elders pioneers behind the scenes with Logically, but not research.

You speak truth…They don’t stick to the subject because deep down they can’t without something like this happening.

Wow! I’m gone for a few days and still nothing from Logically? This is probably because he’s written himself into a corner.

I hope he really loves real truth and has the courage to admit where he is wrong (and we need to pray that he does)…but this is the point where most JWs will jump ship and never return. Logically, if he stays with JW thinking, will have to do the same to remain a JW–why? He has publicly gone on record promoting teachings contrary to the Governing Body.

Among other things, he declared “false” and “deceptive reasoning” the use of the word “reward” saying that God’s gift of eternal life is “not a reward or wages, as if that is something we are owed.*” This even though as I pointed out that Hebrews 11:6 states: “Without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Without belief that God “rewards those who seek him,” the Bible tells us “it is impossible to please God,” we “must believe that…he rewards” us.

In this Logically is publicly advancing reasoning that is not in line with official Watchtower teaching. Jehovah’s Witnesses *do indeed *believe that God rewards his faithful servants. Just recently The Watchtower of August 15, 2012 had an article entitled “The Exists a Reward for Your Activity.” There was also *The Watchtower *of April 1, 2004, in an article entitled “Are You Focusing on the Reward?” In it the instruction from the Governing Body is:

Among “the things unseen” to our literal eyes is the glorious reward of eternal life, which Jehovah holds out to his loyal ones. (2 Corinthians 4:18) Of course, the prime reason Christians serve God is that they love him. (Matthew 22:37) Nonetheless, Jehovah wants us to look forward to our reward. He wants us to see him as a generous Father who is “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Hence, those who really know God and love him treasure his promised blessings and yearn for their fulfillment.—Romans 8:19, 24, 25. (Italics added for emphasis.)

These are but a few examples that demonstrate that Jehovah’s Witnesses are a people who do expect the “reward” of eternal life, and have no problem referring to God’s gift as such.

What Logically should ask himself now is whether or not he had the Holy Spirit while researching and then writing his comments. If it was Holy Spirit directing him, why did he write things contrary to what one finds in The Watchtower? If he admits he acted against the direction of Jehovah’s Spirit, then were we who defended our stand not in the right? In this Logically would have to admit he was arguing against what was right.

And if Logically has to leave for a few days to “regroup,” so to speak, to do research and find answers–even with the help of others, why would he have to do so in the first place? Are we not speaking about fundamentals? Doesn’t Hebrew 6:1-2 tell us that “the basic teaching about Christ” consists of subjects such as the “resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment”? Has Logically not progressed passed these things? Do the Witnesses send out immature spiritual babes who know nothing about the basics of the kingdom message to preach to us?

I hope this wakes up Logically. Any Jehovah’s Witness who would publicly teach contrary to what the Governing Body instructs, I would not be surprised to see keep going and debating. But he already risks being disfellowshipped for what is written above. If the elders of his congregation get wind of these statements he has made and the reproach it places on their religion–well, Logically may have no choice but to find another religion.

But the facts are that the Bible doesn’t teach what either Logically or the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach. Trying to make the Bible fit the Witness teachings on death, for example, don’t work, especially in view of their new 2013 revised New World Translation.

These new renditions in the NWT are either a mistake that shows up the lack of education on those who revised it, or the Governing Body is about to tell the Witnesses that they’ve believed and preached falsehood for over 100 years and now they need to accept the truth that the members of Christendom have always preached.

I hope Logically has the courage to look deep inside himself and review what we’ve been talking about here–what all of us have been saying.

---

*–When I was once in a similar situation, I had to go into heavy denial. It can be very hard on Logically, I’ve been there. So I really wish him the best. He might come back and try to splice his comment and say something like “I was just saying that one’s reward can’t be earned as if ‘owed’ to them,” even though the subject was that Ecclesiastes 9, if read as a definition for death, excludes the possibility of any type of reward, owed or otherwise. My above words may be strong, but you have to apply pressure to the ground if any of the seed you are sowing is to get down deep and take root.–Mark 4:1-20.

 

[Logically]

?..As we know, there were a lot of restoration movements that popped up around the time the JW religion, as we know it, was also founded. I think we might be close to a impass though Hope my post makes sense. Can you help me out at all with what I just wrote?

Also, I certainly do not want to misinterpret what you wrote. I have heard that a lot of things were changed from the early days (from my point of view, that is the 1800s, I understand you believe the early Christians were JW in a way) of the JW religion. So, are you saying that your governing body does make mistakes in what it teaches sometimes, or is it just a further development of teachings or perhaps a little of both? Also, I have heard a lot of rumors that The watchtower has made prophesies in the past that never came true.
…

Hi Laughing boy. Really sorry I haven’t replied, (and all the others I owe a reply to)
but it’s gonna be a few days yet. I’m in the middle of moving flats and my internet has been cut off early. (I’m at a cafe using their free wifi at this moment)
I really wanna tackle your question above.
I’m not trying to weasel out of it.
(I should write a reply on word and just paste it in when I have access to internet)
Patience with me friend.
Logically

 

[Logically]

Thank you. You made me feel special or something LOL That is a big deal for someone who has always lived the motto “Don’t be special like everyone. Just be normal, like no one”

Also, Just want to add something to my question. I asked if there was any truth to the rumors that The Watch tower has made prophesies that have not come true even names dates for the second coming of Christ (I am pretty sure scripture says that NOBODY knows the time or the hour, does that not include the year? … Take care.

You are absolutely right. Jesus said so at Matthew 24:36. (Infact, there he said even he didn’t know) only the Father.
I’m gonna write something on word and reply. My internet might take a week!
Take care.

 

[Logically]

In all fairness, I don’t think that was Logically’s motive in that response. The poster said he likes to invite them in for a glass of water on hot days, and it seems like Logically would take him up on that offer. Not to disprove Catholicism, but to enjoy a glass of water and some friendly conversation. Logically has been quite patient with the amount of time and sheer number of questions he’s answered, I can’t think of another JW who’s done that on this forum.

Thank you. That is exactly what I meant.

(I’m not nearly as wicked as a couple of people here are trying to make me sound. )

Enjoy your day!

 

[Logically]

A developing …

…I do not intend to pit JW against JW nor do I expect you to debate someone not represented on this forum but can you truly make the above statement and continue to remain in the “truth” of the JW organization? Am I missing something in your statement or maybe in the teaching of the organization?

Peace!!!

Fair enough opinion I guess.
Though “apostates” usually are attacking the JWs and charging them with all sorts of crimes. (Crimes even worse than taking ages to reply to questions!)
I’m just answering your questions as best I can. If you have convinced me you personally are not actually worshipping Mary, well done.
We are actually free to have our own opinions. That is why we are encouraged to read the Bible every day. If we weren’t allowed to understand things ourselves we would be forbidden the Bible and told to only read the watchtower. (Ironically, that is another thing apostates charge us with doing) It’s only if we actually start working against the organisation that we would be labeled “apostate”.
Anyway, gotta answer laughing boy first!
Bye.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Fair enough opinion I guess.
Though “apostates” usually are attacking the JWs and charging them with all sorts of crimes. (Crimes even worse than taking ages to reply to questions!)
I’m just answering your questions as best I can. If you have convinced me you personally are not actually worshipping Mary, well done.
We are actually free to have our own opinions. That is why we are encouraged to read the Bible every day. If we weren’t allowed to understand things ourselves we would be forbidden the Bible and told to only read the watchtower. (Ironically, that is another thing apostates charge us with doing) It’s only if we actually start working against the organisation that we would be labeled “apostate”.
Anyway, gotta answer laughing boy first!
Bye.

It’s not always what Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you should be on guard against. Often it is what they do not tell you.

While Witnesses will tell you they are allowed to read the Bible for themselves, what they don’t readily admit is that they are forbidden to read it by themselves.

Without the direction of the Governing Body, Witnesses are told their Bible reading amounts to turning away from God, adding:

To rely simply on personal Bible reading and interpretation is to become like a solitary tree in a parched land.–The Watchtower, June 1, 1985, p.20.

Without the assistance of “the faithful and discreet slave,” [the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses] we would neither understand the full import of what we read in God’s Word nor know how to apply it.–The Watchtower September 15, 2010, p. 8.

Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using [the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses], we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.–The Watchtower December 1, 1981, p. 27.

I’ve never heard of this fabled “apostate” that declares that JWs are forbidden to read the Bible and told to only read The Watchtower, but as you can see above from The Watchtower itself that JWs believe one cannot gain life if they read the Bible without the Watchtower’s influence.

And while Jehovah’s Witnesses may develop an opinion, they are not to advance it or even keep it to themselves. It has to be flushed out.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses is not to “advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.”–The Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p.14.

What if a Jehovah’s Witness tell you otherwise? “Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions.” states The Watchtower of March 15,1986, p.17.

 

[Porknpie]

It’s not always what Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you should be on guard against. Often it is what they do not tell you.

While Witnesses will tell you they are allowed to read the Bible for themselves, what they don’t readily admit is that they are forbidden to read it by themselves.

Per post #80, I wonder if Logically has research how the bible came to be, including Logically’s answering the questions below from #80

So the questions become:

1. who decided what was scripture?
2. when did they decided this?
3. how did they decide?

Without the direction of the Governing Body, Witnesses are told their Bible reading amounts to turning away from God, adding:

That’s interesting because no where in the bible does it say that reading scripture alone amounts to turning away from God. This is truly a man-made invention coming from Brooklyn, NY

Without the assistance of “the faithful and discreet slave,” [the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses] we would neither understand the full import of what we read in God’s Word nor know how to apply it.–The Watchtower September 15, 2010, p. 8.

neither does the bible says anything about a governing body being the faithful and discreet slave."

Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using [the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses], we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.–The Watchtower December 1, 1981, p. 27.

Hmm. The Governing Body sure has gotten it wrong on the end of the world…how many times? God is either a poor communicator or the GB is a poor listener OR God is not working though them as they say.

PnP

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Hi Laughing boy. Really sorry I haven’t replied, (and all the others I owe a reply to)
but it’s gonna be a few days yet. I’m in the middle of moving flats and my internet has been cut off early. (I’m at a cafe using their free wifi at this moment)
I really wanna tackle your question above.
I’m not trying to weasel out of it.
(I should write a reply on word and just paste it in when I have access to internet)
Patience with me friend.
Logically

It is understandable. I am in no hurry. I look forward your answers, at your convenience. Too bad we live on the opposite sides of the world, or I would help you move, because I have a truck, then we could tackle the Q and A afterward LOL.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Hi Logically,
I find the debates about the use of images to assist in the worship of the one true God interesting. One big stumbling block seems to be the difference between 3D images and 2D images. Catholics use 3D images of the Saints (Holy Ones) who have gone before us and have played significant rolls in Christ’s church as a reminder to us of those who have truly dedicated themselves to the will of God and placed God’s will and Gods will for them above all else in their lives. The epitome of this of course is Mary the mother of our Lord. We also ask these Saints who have gone before us to pray for us. We do not worship them as God or gods.
Correct me if I am wrong but does not the Watch Tower print reams and reams of magazines full of 2D Images of the same thing, and I am sure that many JW’s would have these images intentionally or inadvertently on display when they pray and I may be wrong however in the few meetings at the Kingdom hall I have attended prayers are said while teaching from these magazines and clearly with the amount of images in these magazines they are being used as an assistance to worship.
Also in these magazines I have seen images of YHWH that you call Jehovah, this is one thing I have never seen in my life as a Catholic, I have never seen either in print in Catholic literature or in a Church etc an Image of God the Father. However the Watch Tower seems to have no problem with producing millions of images of YHWH and then attributing a hybrid man made name, the erroneous Jehovah, to these images. Your comment about the Israelites producing an Image of YHWH as a Bull and giving it Gods name, and the scripture that God does not share his glory with graven images is more appropriately directed to the Watch Tower who have no problem reducing YHWH or as you say Jehovah to a man made graven image a practice that I have never experienced in the Catholic Church.

Hi Logically,
I have realised that I need to correct myself on the above post. It dawned on me that of course in Michael Angelo’s fresco on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel in the panel depicting the creation of Adam is an image of Elohim or El Shaddai or YHWH, or as Jesus taught us the Father or if you like the improbable Jehovah.
Do you have any comment about the Watch Towers use of Images of the same?

 

[Logically]

Hi Logically,
I have realised that I need to correct myself on the above post. It dawned on me that of course in Michael Angelo’s fresco on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel in the panel depicting the creation of Adam is an image of Elohim or El Shaddai or YHWH, or as Jesus taught us the Father or if you like the improbable Jehovah.
Do you have any comment about the Watch Towers use of Images of the same?

Oh yeah. Good point. i didn’t think of that painting. Thanks for your honesty.

Sorry, I have to answer “laughing boy” first and only have an hour with internet. (at a cafe again)

Please believe I do read all the posts, especially replying to me. But I would need a couple of hours a day to reply to them all.

 

[Logically]

It is understandable. I am in no hurry. I look forward your answers, at your convenience. Too bad we live on the opposite sides of the world, or I would help you move, because I have a truck, then we could tackle the Q and A afterward LOL.

Hi at last!

I tried to find the post to quote where you asked, but couldn’t spot it. Your questions were something like:

1. What are the differences of JWs to others who claim to be resorative Christianity?
   and
2. What’s all this about false predictions of dates I hear?

Very good questions that deserve an answer.

There are several things that I notice makes the witnesses unique. I will put forward a couple that will lead into answering your question about dates. (Hopefully)

Before I begin, please believe I intend no insult to anyone or any religion. I will try to be general in what I say, but if anyone reads their religion into anything I mention, please don’t take offense.

One difference that the mainstream churches almost never mention is “the last days.” -The time of the end, the end of the age, the final part of the days, the conclusion of the system of things. It goes by many names and is a major subject of the Bible. (Isaiah 2:2, Matt 13:39,40, Matt 24, Luke 21, 2 Tim 3:1-7…)

Basically God is going to bring an end to the current global system, and replace it with something far better. The new world will be ruled by his Kingdom. Jesus is King of this Kingdom. That is the change millions (often unknowingly) pray for in the “Lords prayer.”

Another Bible teaching that most religions don’t mention is this: The world is currently ruled by Satan. (Luke 4:6, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Rev 12:9…) Like Hellfire, you don’t often hear Satan mentioned anymore, but this is one teaching JW’s refuse to water down. (by the way, we don’t believe he has horns and a pointed tail.)
He is an angel that lead a rebellion against Jehovah. He currently controls the political, commercial and religious systems that run our world.

These two Bible teachings are related. Satan controls the world, that is why Jehovah will bring it to an end. His original purpose in Genesis was for the earth to be a paradise home for humankind. He will carry out that purpose once the issue of “who has the right to rule” has been concluded. (Rev 21:3,4)

I think one reason most religions don’t teach these two things is because they are very involved in the world. Religions have pulled the strings of huge governments and empires for thousands of years. Kings and emperors have been crowned by religious leaders, politicians have been promoted or demonized by them, wars have been waged because of differences of religion.

So rather than teach “the world is ruled by Satan and God’s Kingdom will bring it to an end,” they are trying to influence it themselves! Trying to establish God’s Kingdom on earth by human efforts. Noble, but futile.

That is a totally different doctrine to the one Jesus taught. At John 18:36, when Pilate asked Jesus if he was a king, Jesus relied “my Kingdom is no part of this world.” Of course not. He knew who was ruling the world then and now.

That is a main subject JW’s preach in hundreds of lands and languages. They are unique in the scale and the message preached also. And this preaching work is part of the sign Jesus told us would mark the last days. (Matthew 24:14)
The Bible also tells us the last days would see a re-establishment of true worship. (Isaiah 2:2-4, Matt 13:37-43.) It would become obvious what organisation God is using and approving of.

Yes there are other religions that say: “we are the restoration of true worship.” But none can tick all those boxes.

Now, what about these failed predictions? I might have to do another post.

 

[Logically]

… As we know, there were a lot of restoration movements that popped up around the time the JW religion, as we know it, was also founded. …

…So, are you saying that your governing body does make mistakes in what it teaches sometimes, or is it just a further development of teachings or perhaps a little of both? …

…Also, I have heard a lot of rumors that The watchtower has made prophesies in the past that never came true. …

I found the post!

OK. Now what about these failed predictions and dates?

Sure the JW’s are preaching the system will soon end and the Kingdom will take over, but haven’t they pointed at particular years in the past and been proved wrong?
My answer: “Sort of.”

First may I say that JW’s are not “inspired” by God. They have repeatedly said this.

A quote from Awake:
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. … Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’
…The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425)
… the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157)
… “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19.
End of quote.

So Charles Taze Russell was not visited by an Angel. No one received a divine vision. No one came out of a trance and said: “Wow, I understand the entire Bible all of a sudden.”

The early name of JW’s (until the 1930’s) was simply: “The Bible students.” The name says it all.
They studied the Bible passionately and wrote about what they learned.

And in the late 19th and early 20th century they learned heaps! Each time they discovered something new they made changes to what they believed.
(The ridiculous alternative would be to keep believing something they had come to realise was false )

Even the apostles had wrong expectations at times. Acts 1:6 shows they thought the Kingdom was about to be established in 33 AD, and still had this idea it was on earth!
That didn’t mean they were the wrong religion or that Jesus wasn’t using them.

1914 was something the JW’s spotted.

Daniel foretold a time period (connected to God’s kingdom) that would end. The JW’s calculations showed this period would end in 1914.
(Here is a link to the explanation of where that date comes from.) jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-a-significant-year-in-bible-prophecy/

The Kingdom would be set up in that year!

With that in mind, - of course they speculated on what would happen and what to expect in that year.
In one of our new videos on the history of JWS (I think you can watch it here)
jw.org/en/publications/videos/?start=12
has one of our governing body say: “they recognized the date was significant, but had some wrong expectations about what was going to happen”

Of course 1914 was one of the turning points of world history.

We believe the Kingdom was set up then, but what was the first action that Kingdom took? Rev 12:9, 12 shows Satan was confined to the earth and has great anger because he knows this means a “Short period of time”.

1914 was the beginning of the last days, not the end!

After 1914 with the world in turmoil, the JW’s were trying to make sense of what was happening. I think there were other dates temporarily put forward for a bit. (I knee jerk reaction to their long held expectation not being what they thought)

Also, there was a popular idea that developed before 1975, based on that being 6000 years since Adam was created.
The end coming in 1975 was never an official teaching, but some unfortunate things were said like: “It could be, who knows?”
Some of course, interpreted that as “Yes.”

I have questioned several who were JW’s back then, they say: “We all knew it wasn’t in the Watchtower, but some brothers just wouldn’t let it go” Humans eh?

But Jesus, in his prophesy of the last days repeatedly urged his followers “Keep on the watch.” Matt 25:13 tempers those words with: “Keep on the watch, because you know neither the day nor the hour.”

Imagine if, in the years leading up to the 9/11 terror attacks, a group had been proclaiming that “a bomb is going to destroy the Empire state building in late 2001!”

• Would we now dismiss them as “false prophets” because of the details they got wrong? Or would we seriously consider what else they think is going to happen in the future?

1914 was the beginning of the last days. Everything that has happened since proves that.

The JW’s were right, they just didn’t have all the details or the correct understanding of its significance .

 

[DelsonJacobs]

First may I say that JW’s are not “inspired” by God. They have repeatedly said this.

A quote from Awake:
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. … Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’
…The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425)
… the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157)
… “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19.
End of quote.

Just because the Witnesses didn’t use the words “inspiration” or the phrase “these are the words of Jehovah” in their failed predictions doesn’t mean they didn’t expect people to believe their views were any less true or any less of God.

Let’s say I yell “Fire!” in a crowded movie theatre, and it causes people to run out in a panic. In the panic some people fall and hurt themselves. Others trample upon other patrons trying to escape. Some of the injuries are serious. Some even lose their lives.

Now let’s say, in the face of everything, when all subsides, people realize there was no fire in the movie theatre. People turn to me, the man who yelled “Fire!”

“I never used the actual words ‘there is a fire in the theatre’ or claimed that my word was valid and dependable,” I tell everyone. “I just yelled the word ‘Fire!’ I’m not guilty of claiming there was a fire or starting a panic.”

The Witnesses used to teach in each issue of their Awake! magazine that God promised that the world would end before the generation who witnessed the start of World World I died off the earth:

Why AWAKE! Is Published…Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.–Emphasis added.

This appeared on every inside cover of the Awake! magazine until November 1995. Up to that point they were telling everyone that what they taught about the 1914 generation was “God’s promise.” They were attributing a “promise” of God to something they later rejected when it was clear it would never happen.

Notice how literal the Jehovah’s Witnesses have been in calling themselves prophets.

Whom has God actually used as his prophet?..Jehovah’s Witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them.–Watchtower, 1/15/1959, pg 40, 41

Who is this prophet?..Today they are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.–Watchtower, 4/1/1972, pg 197.

There was even an entire book dedicated to the subject of Jehovah’s Witnesses being God’s sole prophet on earth entitled “The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah—How?” You can find copies of it on Amazon to this day. Inside the Witnesses claim to be God’s prophet verbatim, stating that they alone have been

“commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah”

and that they have received a direct

“commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah.”

–See The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah–How? pp.58, 62.

What Logically is feeding you here is just a word game that the Witnesses use to weasel out of things.

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and even has the DNA of a duck, isn’t it a duck? I mean, even if you don’t want to use the word “duck,” it doesn’t make it any less of a duck, does it?

What do you call a religion that calls itself Jehovah’s prophet and Jehovah’s prophet class, and proclaims it is the only channel of truth, and sets dates on the end of the world (dates that must be accepted by its members under pain of excommunication), and calls their predictions “God’s promise”?

So what if you don’t use the exact words for claiming inspiration? If you tell people that you’ve been “commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah” and “to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah,” how is that not a claim to be an inspired prophet?

That like calling out “Fire!” in a crowded theatre and then claiming you can’t be blamed for what happened because you never said “the theatre is on fire, run for you lives,” you only said the word “fire.”

As a drag queen I used to know was fond of saying: “Gurl, please!”

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Hi at last!

There are several things that I notice makes the witnesses unique. I will put forward a couple that will lead into answering your question about dates. (Hopefully)

One difference that the mainstream churches almost never mention is “the last days.” -The time of the end, the end of the age, the final part of the days, the conclusion of the system of things. It goes by many names and is a major subject of the Bible. (Isaiah 2:2, Matt 13:39,40, Matt 24, Luke 21, 2 Tim 3:1-7…)

Basically God is going to bring an end to the current global system, and replace it with something far better. The new world will be ruled by his Kingdom. Jesus is King of this Kingdom. That is the change millions (often unknowingly) pray for in the “Lords prayer.”

Another Bible teaching that most religions don’t mention is this: The world is currently ruled by Satan. (Luke 4:6, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Rev 12:9…) Like Hellfire, you don’t often hear Satan mentioned anymore, but this is one teaching JW’s refuse to water down. (by the way, we don’t believe he has horns and a pointed tail.)
He is an angel that lead a rebellion against Jehovah. He currently controls the political, commercial and religious systems that run our world.

These two Bible teachings are related. Satan controls the world, that is why Jehovah will bring it to an end. His original purpose in Genesis was for the earth to be a paradise home for humankind. He will carry out that purpose once the issue of “who has the right to rule” has been concluded. (Rev 21:3,4)

I think one reason most religions don’t teach these two things is because they are very involved in the world. Religions have pulled the strings of huge governments and empires for thousands of years. Kings and emperors have been crowned by religious leaders, politicians have been promoted or demonized by them, wars have been waged because of differences of religion.

So rather than teach “the world is ruled by Satan and God’s Kingdom will bring it to an end,” they are trying to influence it themselves! Trying to establish God’s Kingdom on earth by human efforts. Noble, but futile.

That is a totally different doctrine to the one Jesus taught. At John 18:36, when Pilate asked Jesus if he was a king, Jesus relied “my Kingdom is no part of this world.” Of course not. He knew who was ruling the world then and now.

That is a main subject JW’s preach in hundreds of lands and languages. They are unique in the scale and the message preached also. And this preaching work is part of the sign Jesus told us would mark the last days. (Matthew 24:14)
The Bible also tells us the last days would see a re-establishment of true worship. (Isaiah 2:2-4, Matt 13:37-43.) It would become obvious what organisation God is using and approving of.

Yes there are other religions that say: “we are the restoration of true worship.” But none can tick all those boxes.

Now, what about these failed predictions? I might have to do another post.

Thank you for your answers. They are very interesting indeed but I have a few comments on a few things your wrote. Remember, the point of my questions being why I should take The JW religion seriously, and why are they different from the other Restoration movements.

I do not know how much interaction you have had with people of other denominations in the protestant world, but a belief and constant talking about “The end of days” and us being in “The last days” and “A end to it all and a new kingdom coming” is nowhere near only a JW thing or even close to being something that other denominations “hardly talk about”, as you have said. Nor is talk about Satan. What gives you that impression? No disrespect at all… You know I appreciate your kindness here so I do not at all intend to offend you but In my experience with Protestant tradition, I saw a big obsession with “The end of time” In fact, I can remember my Grandmother telling me, when I was a little boy, that “We are living in the last days” and she even went as far as to be more specific about how soon into the last days we were. She told me that she heard a minister say that “He could feel that it would be less than 20 years away” Now, this was probably in the early 90s. But I grew up thinking that I would most likely not live to see adulthood because Jesus was coming back soon.

I read a Seventh Day Adventist book (before I became Catholic) about the last days. They also believe we are in “The last days” and the book outlined how “The last days of the last days” would be. At least from the seventh day Adventist point of view. Like I said before, they have various “theories” about the end of days. A sect called “The house of YHWH” Is extremely obsessed with the last days and preach how it is all going to end soon in a nuclear holocaust. Even “The westboro Baptist Church” seems to believe that theirs is the last generation. I saw a documentary about them and the young girls, when asked why they don’t ever want to get married, answered that These are the last days so marriage is not important. In other words… They were implying that Jesus was going to come back sometime in their lifetime. And I know, from my own experience, this is not unique to only the JW religion. So, in my view and experience, a lot of newer movement “Tick all those boxes”

Now… on to your other post. I will re-read it again first.