First lesbian bishop to be consecrated by Anglican church in America

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GKC said:
That’s where the idea of Donatism comes in. The proper matter for Holy Orders is a baptized, confirmed male, of a certain age. Morality not a factor. No one is adequately moral to qualify.

Now, prudence is another matter. So to speak.

GKC
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What I am suggesting is not about morality though. More like “what is a male”. If homosexuality were understood as a kind of defect in ones maleness, as it would be with a hermaphrodite for example, it wouldn’t have anything to do with morality. It would be a defect in the physical matter.
 
Bluegoat said:
What I am suggesting is not about morality though. More like “what is a male”. If homosexuality were understood as a kind of defect in ones maleness, as it would be with a hermaphrodite for example, it wouldn’t have anything to do with morality. It would be a defect in the physical matter.
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A possibility. I agree.

GKC
 
larkin31 said:
not heroic, just honest and open

I find some aspects of religion “repugnant”, but I don’t argue that religion should be kept in a closet.

if the press would not sensationalize it, we would not even know. I sure don’t care.
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so basically, in your view anything goes. its ok if a pastor has a live in girlfriend? it ok if pastors or elders are carrying on illicit relationships with members of their congregations? i personally smoke. should i be allowed to come into your home, if you are a nonsmoker, and light up? forcing you to live with even passivly with a lifestyle choice i have made, that many find repugnant? where would you draw the line? is polygamy ok? if not, why not? thank you for your open honest answers. i really am tryin to understand your point of view. i slam the ultra right wing even harder 😃 peace:)
 
Bluegoat said:
Totally aside from the ordination of women issue, and the issue of ordaining someone is sexually active openly outside of marriage -

what really bugs me is this. How can the Episcopalians, and the Anglican Church of Canada, say they are in good faith with Anglicans worldwide and see that there has been a moratorium because this kind of thing has been destroying their church in the West? Why do they even bother to go to Lambeth or other meetings?

I understand that they think they are right, but they almost seem to be setting out to destroy communities, parishes, and the Communion. How can they think this is a good idea?
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One of the major reasons I left the Anglican Church.
 
larkin31 said:
Gays are already in the ministry of ALL religions, and have done a fine job. Maybe it is time we just admit it and openly acknowledge it? They are parents, soldiers, teachers, doctors, preachers.
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You’ve completely missed the issue.

Fr. Seraphim Rose was known to be homosexual and yet has a huge following among the Orthodox, and yet those same people would oppose what is happening in the Anglican Church.

The gender to which an individual feels attracted has very little to do with it.
 
Bluegoat said:
I understand that they think they are right, but they almost seem to be setting out to destroy communities, parishes, and the Communion. How can they think this is a good idea?
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I am not completely familiar with the whole details of the issue other than what is reported in media. However, given the actions of TEC on it, it would seem thoughts of the worldwide communion is the last thing on their minds. Their own theological and political agenda seems to be the more important issue for the hierarchy. I am quite sure they would go it alone if the rest of the communion no longer had ties with them.

Of course, they miss the 800 lb. gorilla in the room that if they continue their present course, within due time their membership numbers will dissipate (as they already are) to negligible and they will cease to function as the body they once were.
 
benidict said:
so basically, in your view anything goes. its ok if a pastor has a live in girlfriend? it ok if pastors or elders are carrying on illicit relationships with members of their congregations? i personally smoke. should i be allowed to come into your home, if you are a nonsmoker, and light up? forcing you to live with even passivly with a lifestyle choice i have made, that many find repugnant? where would you draw the line? is polygamy ok? if not, why not? thank you for your open honest answers. i really am tryin to understand your point of view. i slam the ultra right wing even harder 😃 peace:)
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If a congregation or denomination chooses to ordain a gay minister, who are we to say they can’t?
 
Nine_Two said:
You’ve completely missed the issue.

Fr. Seraphim Rose was known to be homosexual and yet has a huge following among the Orthodox, and yet those same people would oppose what is happening in the Anglican Church.

The gender to which an individual feels attracted has very little to do with it.
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So open acknowledgement is not the issue?
 
Be careful of the phrase “Anglican church in America”. There is a Continuing Anglican denomination called The Anglican Church in America that is separate and distinct from the Episcopal Church. In fact, the Anglican Church in America is a member of the Traditional Anglican Communion and has voted to join the Catholic Church as members of the proposed Anglican Ordinariate for the United States.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I am not completely familiar with the whole details of the issue other than what is reported in media. However, given the actions of TEC on it, it would seem thoughts of the worldwide communion is the last thing on their minds. Their own theological and political agenda seems to be the more important issue for the hierarchy. I am quite sure they would go it alone if the rest of the communion no longer had ties with them.

Of course, they miss the 800 lb. gorilla in the room that if they continue their present course, within due time their membership numbers will dissipate (as they already are) to negligible and they will cease to function as the body they once were.
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I completely agree. It seems to me TEC has adopted the sort of elitist mentality of “we know better than you” (reminiscent of some politicians 😉 ) except this time they seem to believe they know better than the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion at large.

As to declining membership, I’m living proof of that. I was born & raised Episcopalian, as were my children, but none of us are Episcopalian now. I can’t help but wonder what my dear Mother would have thought about all of this. Thankfully, she is not here to see it.
 
MelanieAnne said:
I completely agree. It seems to me TEC has adopted the sort of elitist mentality of “we know better than you” (reminiscent of some politicians 😉 ) except this time they seem to believe they know better than the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion at large.

As to declining membership, I’m living proof of that. I was born & raised Episcopalian, as were my children, but none of us are Episcopalian now. I can’t help but wonder what my dear Mother would have thought about all of this. Thankfully, she is not here to see it.
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From 2002 to 2009, Episcopal Church membership has declined by 10 percent, and attendance by 14 percent. To what, did the all-wise and understanding Presiding Bishop Schori attribute this decline? The proportion of Episcopalians in the US population “used to be larger percentage-wise, but Episcopalians tend to be better-educated and tend to reproduce at lower rates than some other denominations. Roman Catholics and Mormons both have theological reasons for producing lots of children.”

Yes, Mrs. “Bishop,” that must be it!
 
MelanieAnne said:
I completely agree. It seems to me TEC has adopted the sort of elitist mentality of “we know better than you” (reminiscent of some politicians 😉 ) except this time they seem to believe they know better than the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion at large.

As to declining membership, I’m living proof of that. I was born & raised Episcopalian, as were my children, but none of us are Episcopalian now. I can’t help but wonder what my dear Mother would have thought about all of this. Thankfully, she is not here to see it.
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Should dogma be concerned with membership numbers? I find it interesting for a Catholic to say this.
 
MelanieAnne said:
You’ll need to explain what you mean.
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Usually–and especially with Catholics–the right or wrongness of a dogmatic decision is not evaluated by how many people are happy with it nor by how many people leave the congregation for other faiths.

Right?

These congregations aren’t willy-nilly making these moves. They truly believe it is the correct thing to do. And if you believe that it is correct, you do it, whether you please everyone or not.
 
Bluegoat said:
What I am suggesting is not about morality though. More like “what is a male”. If homosexuality were understood as a kind of defect in ones maleness, as it would be with a hermaphrodite for example, it wouldn’t have anything to do with morality. It would be a defect in the physical matter.
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So, celibate homosexuals may not be priests?
 
Bruce_in_Iloilo said:
Be careful of the phrase “Anglican church in America”. There is a Continuing Anglican denomination called The Anglican Church in America that is separate and distinct from the Episcopal Church. In fact, the Anglican Church in America is a member of the Traditional Anglican Communion and has voted to join the Catholic Church as members of the proposed Anglican Ordinariate for the United States.
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Yes, the headline is from a British publication, apparently not too familiar with the American Anglican scene.
 
larkin31 said:
Usually–and especially with Catholics–the right or wrongness of a dogmatic decision is not evaluated by how many people are happy with it nor by how many people leave the congregation for other faiths.

Right?

These congregations aren’t willy-nilly making these moves. They truly believe it is the correct thing to do. And if you believe that it is correct, you do it, whether you please everyone or not.
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I agree that dogma should not be a political decision if that is what you mean, nor should reference to membership statistics, no matter which way the line is trending. If you thought that I was suggesting that the Episcopal church dogma should be altered with reference to membership numbers, let me correct that conclusion. That was not what I meant.

These congregations may not be making these moves “willy-nilly” but they are doing it in direct opposition to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion at large. I have no idea whether or not they’re consulting their membership and, if so, how. But it appears to me that they are definitely operating with an elitist “we know better than you” mentality. It cannot be viewed as insignificant that they are going up against the rest of the Anglican Communion. I can only assume that much of the Anglican Communion finds many of the actions of TEC as profoundly offensive and troublesome.

As for the decline in membership, it may very well be the result of some of these attitudes. For me, the Episcopal church lost its relevancy a while ago. While I do find the elitist mentality offensive, that was not the reason I left the church.
 
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