First visit to an Eastern Church?

[BVM_1221]

Here is a nice article that explains some things you might want to know

patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Byzantine-101-Before-Visiting-an-Eastern-Catholic-Church-Jessica-Burchtynskyy-08-29-2011.html

Amd always remember that the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Here is a nice article that explains some things you might want to know

patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Byzantine-101-Before-Visiting-an-Eastern-Catholic-Church-Jessica-Burchtynskyy-08-29-2011.html

Amd always remember that the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father

I love Orthodox liturgy but dont talk me about the procession … I had a dialogue with an Orthodox, which is still going on and we stuck on the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father.
Even if I told that there was no problem if we take the Son out, he did not bulge. It’s been 600 years ago, and it is such a spine on their throats …
And again … separation from the Pope … separation from the church of Christ … it is sad…

But I love it, when I am working I am always hearing Russian liturgy music.

This is the Ave Maria of Rachmaninoff, which gives you chills on the spine:

youtube.com/watch?v=4NrXi6BzhQk&feature=related

I could not find the rendition of this prayer by St. Petersbourg Choir, which is … no words … just listen:

youtube.com/watch?v=PSpnHGVuwS8&feature=mr_meh&list=PL307F44B26A4FFEB0&playnext=0

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I love Orthodox liturgy but dont talk me about the procession … I had a dialogue with an Orthodox, which is still going on and we stuck on the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father.
Even if I told that there was no problem if we take the Son out, he did not bulge. It’s been 600 years ago, and it is such a spine on their throats …
And again … separation from the Pope … separation from the church of Christ … it is sad…

But I love it, when I am working I am always hearing Russian liturgy music.

This is the Ave Maria of Rachmaninoff, which gives you chills on the spine:

youtube.com/watch?v=4NrXi6BzhQk&feature=related

I could not find the rendition of this prayer by St. Petersbourg Choir, which is … no words … just listen:

youtube.com/watch?v=PSpnHGVuwS8&feature=mr_meh&list=PL307F44B26A4FFEB0&playnext=0

The Orthodox Church (Greek and Russian) are far closer to Communion with Rome than ever in History. I attended the Ravenna Conference briefing by the principal Orthodox and Roman negotiators at Catholic University following. Just some details need be worked out. Orthodox agreement that the Bishop of Rome is the 1st among Bishops was signed years ago. Principal reasons for communion were the rapid rise in Secularism and anti-religious propaganda, and that The Pope and the Patriarch of Russian Orthodox are bot German.

Let’s look to the future, not to the past. We are the 2 Lungs of The Church Our Lord Founded, with the same Sacraments and principals. The Roman Mass continues the Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison historically. The Divine Liturgy and The Mass have the Same principal Holy parts. :byzsoc: I was fortunate to attend the world Premier of the Orthodox Christmas Oratorio at the Basillica of Immaculate Conception, DC, Televised by Russian and several TV and Media Networks. The Orchestra was the Russian Army Central Command Symphony Orchestra, and 2 or 3 Russian Choirs: One a Russian Orthodox Seminarian Choir. I was totally Awestruck, breathless, standing with Thousands. The Composer attended, as simple Priest: the Orthodox Metropolitan of Europe, Vienna.

I have to get a copy. It was a Once in Lifetime World Premier, Historic.

 

[5Loaves]

The Orthodox Church (Greek and Russian) are far closer to Communion with Rome than ever in History. I attended the Ravenna Conference briefing by the principal Orthodox and Roman negotiators at Catholic University following.

Delegates from the Moscow patriarchate walked out on that Commission held in Ravenna. The Russian Orthodox Church under the Moscow patriarchate is the largest single Orthodox Church,

Just some details need be worked out. Orthodox agreement that the Bishop of Rome is the 1st among Bishops was signed years ago.

If the folks at that conference gave you the impression that the role of the Bishop of Rome has been agreed upon that is certainly not the case. The “details” are far from minor and are in fact of the essence as to the role of the Pope of Rome, and the meaning of any councils after the first seven ecumenical councils.

A Common Response to the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue Between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church Regarding the Ravenna Document “Ecclesiological and Canonical Consequences of the Sacramental Nature of the Church: Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority” By the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, 2009:

…The [Ravenna] document ends with **questions that remain to be answered: “What is the specific function of the bishop of the “first see” in an ecclesiology of koinonia and in view of what we have said on conciliarity and authority in the present text? How should the teaching of the first and second Vatican councils on the universal primacy be understood and lived in the light of the ecclesial practice of the first millennium?” These are the questions that drive all discussion of papal primacy… **

I recommend reading the whole of The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation “Common Response” for the many questions it poses that they found unaddressed by the Ravenna Document.

I also recommend as timely all the podcasts of Plenary sessions of this year’s Orientale Lumen Conference “Rome and the Communion of Churches: Bishop, Patriarch or Pope?” Start with Plenary One Fr. Taft’s “The Future Church” and work through them all, at least once.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

The Orthodox Church (Greek and Russian) are far closer to Communion with Rome than ever in History. I attended the Ravenna Conference briefing by the principal Orthodox and Roman negotiators at Catholic University following. Just some details need be worked out. Orthodox agreement that the Bishop of Rome is the 1st among Bishops was signed years ago. Principal reasons for communion were the rapid rise in Secularism and anti-religious propaganda, and that The Pope and the Patriarch of Russian Orthodox are bot German.

Let’s look to the future, not to the past. We are the 2 Lungs of The Church Our Lord Founded, with the same Sacraments and principals. The Roman Mass continues the Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison historically. The Divine Liturgy and The Mass have the Same principal Holy parts. :byzsoc: I was fortunate to attend the world Premier of the Orthodox Christmas Oratorio at the Basillica of Immaculate Conception, DC, Televised by Russian and several TV and Media Networks. The Orchestra was the Russian Army Central Command Symphony Orchestra, and 2 or 3 Russian Choirs: One a Russian Orthodox Seminarian Choir. I was totally Awestruck, breathless, standing with Thousands. The Composer attended, as simple Priest: the Orthodox Metropolitan of Europe, Vienna.

I have to get a copy. It was a Once in Lifetime World Premier, Historic.

I would wish the unity would come. We are too close, separated through a thin line.
If you get a copy and have the kindness to send to me, I would love to read it.
My dream was to spend Easter in Moscow. I had a chance when a friend on Moscow but I lost it. lets see what god wants.

 

[I_Thirst]

As I’m considering a first visit to an EC Church, thanks for the link. Very helpful!

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Delegates from the Moscow patriarchate walked out on that Commission held in Ravenna. The Russian Orthodox Church under the Moscow patriarchate is the largest single Orthodox Church,

1. (1) Why did the Delegates from the Moscow Patriach walk out at Ravenna? It’s been too long ago to remember.
   
   If the folks at that conference gave you the impression that the role of the Bishop of Rome has been agreed upon that is certainly not the case. The “details” are far from minor and are in fact of the essence as to the role of the Pope of Rome, and the meaning of any councils after the first seven ecumenical councils (2)(a) I was not at The Ravenna Conference; I attended the public (b) Briefing by The principal Orthodox Metropolitan Negotiator, the Very engaging, Brilliant Director of Theology at Cambridge University, and his former student, a Catholic Priest secondary Negotiator Professor at Catholic University. 80% of the Briefing was by The Metropolitan. (c) Indeed, The Metropolitan closed wioth The Need for Communion, and indicated the ROLE of Metropitans and the Bishop of Rome need to be worked out. The Orthodox position was that the Bishop of Rome should consult the Metropolitans First on issues, Before the Cardinals; seemingly a Very self-Centered view of Self Power, imo. (d) As I wrote, the Bishop of Rome has been Agreed in Wrirting as the Primary Bishop, Years ago, a major agreement.
   
   I recommend reading the whole of The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation “Common Response” for the many questions it poses that they found unaddressed by the Ravenna Document. (3) Thank You for the Important link. Reading it, 2 things Impress: (a) the Need to be more United in our 2 Lungs of The Church. (b) Of Course there are innumerable Details left, but the Important, Significant ones are the Roles of The Pope and Patriarchs, and the Role of Metropolitans and Cardinals. (c) The “Superiority” of Each is Past History, Never should be revisited, and Against Our Lord’s Prinipals. The Patriarch of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome twice annually ‘co-celebrate’ each other’s major Feasts, Very visible on EWTN wordwide. (d) The 22 Eastern Orthodox Full Communion, Retaining the Principles and Cultures of Each, are the model for hopefully not too far full Communion wirth Rome. Eastern Rite Parishes are Listed in Catholic Diocese, including my own.
   

                                                                                                                        The  Overview  Problem I   see is  Maintaing   Power  by Patriarchs  and Metropolitans;   a   Very  Self Centered  Non-Christian  concept,  imo.  The    Roman Church is Rapidly  Expanding Most in Africa  and Asia;  the Orthodox   do not seem so evangelical.    The  Entire  Church of Christ  and our  7  Sacraments  are entrusted to  Spread,  Bring Christ to the  unchristians.  
   
                                                                                                          I also recommend  as timely all the [podcasts of Plenary sessions](http://ancientfaith.com/specials/orientale_lumen_xv_conference) of this year's Orientale Lumen Conference “Rome and the Communion of Churches: Bishop, Patriarch or Pope?”   Start with [Plenary One](http://ancientfaith.com/specials/orientale_lumen_xv_conference/plenary_one) Fr. Taft's "The Future Church" and work through them all, at least once. :)

1. 
   Thank You very for your key Links, Brother in Christ. We share the Same Sacraments, the same teachings, the same Missions, the same Saints, the Same Blessed Virgin. We are One in Fact; we need to dispel our Human differences, retain our powerful Cultures, as the last Popes have Urged. :byzsoc: Weren’t our Differences, Split Power, ‘Political’ based? that is the overview taught us Romans. Power Centered. Let’s return to Fully Our Lord, His Church’s Work, Powerful Cultures. Our Protestant and even atheist friends move to Our Church (Singularl)

 

[5Loaves]

Thank You very for your key Links,

You’re welcome.
I’m happy to have repeated the links here, since your similar post and my similar response were in another section of CAF.

I suggest you start a new thread here for this; it’s off topic for the OP.

Brother in Christ.

I’m a sister.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

We should pray for unity, the kind that God wants, not as we would have it.

I once said this to a ROCOR priest who then smiled and said, “We are one then!”

Alex

 

[Pambo]

And again … separation from the Pope … separation from the church of Christ … it is sad…

0

Hello!

From what I understand, this is not the Catholic position on the Orthodox anymore. They are considered to be part of Christ’s Church, but separated from the Holy See. They have fully valid sacraments and priestly orders, which I don’t think would be possible if they were not a part of Christ’s Church. Many Orthodox consider Catholics to be outside Christ’s Church and that is why they don’t belive our sacraments to be valid. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken here!

 

[Vico]

Hello!

From what I understand, this is not the Catholic position on the Orthodox anymore. They are considered to be part of Christ’s Church, but separated from the Holy See. They have fully valid sacraments and priestly orders, which I don’t think would be possible if they were not a part of Christ’s Church. Many Orthodox consider Catholics to be outside Christ’s Church and that is why they don’t belive our sacraments to be valid. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken here!

…

Something on ecclesial communities and particular Churchs and the meaning of subsists in the Catholic Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/subsistit.htm

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello!

From what I understand, this is not the Catholic position on the Orthodox anymore. They are considered to be part of Christ’s Church, but separated from the Holy See. They have fully valid sacraments and priestly orders, which I don’t think would be possible if they were not a part of Christ’s Church. Many Orthodox consider Catholics to be outside Christ’s Church and that is why they don’t belive our sacraments to be valid. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken here!

This opinion is not shared by all Orthodox. The Orthodox believe that they know where Christ’s Church is, they do not know where it is not. They know that the Orthodox Churches are part of Christ’s Church. They are unsure if the Catholic Church is (again a general statement, some will say yes, others an outright now) so thus they see our Sacraments as suspect.

 

[TrueLight]

Question: During a Vespers service(?), is there holy communion?

I really want to attend vespers at an Eastern Catholic church, but if there is communion, I will be darned if I have to stay in my pew while everyone goes up for communion. In that case, I’d rather wait till I have my first communion.

When I visited the OCA church and the deacon, I believe, started singing “All Catechumens leave” or something to that effect, at the end of the mass of the catechumens, I almost left. Ha ha.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Question: During a Vespers service(?), is there holy communion?

I really want to attend vespers at an Eastern Catholic church, but if there is communion, I will be darned if I have to stay in my pew while everyone goes up for communion. In that case, I’d rather wait till I have my first communion.

When I visited the OCA church and the deacon, I believe, started singing “All Catechumens leave” or something to that effect, at the end of the mass of the catechumens, I almost left. Ha ha.

To be honest, it kind of depends. Some parishes offer Great Vespers, which is a prayer service. Some Eastern Catholic parishes instead have a Vigil Liturgy; however, this practice is starting to be phased out in favor of Great Vespers.

Look it up at website of the parish or, if they don’t have a website, call ahead and ask. That is the best advice I can give you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Question: During a Vespers service(?), is there holy communion?

I really want to attend vespers at an Eastern Catholic church, but if there is communion, I will be darned if I have to stay in my pew while everyone goes up for communion. In that case, I’d rather wait till I have my first communion.

When I visited the OCA church and the deacon, I believe, started singing “All Catechumens leave” or something to that effect, at the end of the mass of the catechumens, I almost left. Ha ha.

Generally, no. There is the Latinized “anticipation Mass” which is referred to as “Vesperal Divine Liturgy”. It Divine Liturgy celebrated in the time of Vespers akin to anticipated Mass. That would have Holy Communion. But real Vespers won’t. Although there are some Great Feasts where Vespers do lead into Divine Liturgy.

Eastern Parishes won’t confuse you with terms though. If it just says Vespers, there is no Holy Communion. If it says Vesperal Divine Liturgy, then it has.

 

[5Loaves]

Question: During a Vespers service(?), is there holy communion?

I really want to attend vespers at an Eastern Catholic church, but if there is communion, I will be darned if I have to stay in my pew while everyone goes up for communion. In that case, I’d rather wait till I have my first communion.

Aren’t you in NYC? I don’t think you’ll find pews at St. Michael’s “Russian Catholic Church of Byzantine Rite”, nor Eucharist at a Vespers… but I could be wrong.

If you aren’t going up for Holy Eucharist in your Latin parish why would it seem odd to you to not receive it in an Eastern Catholic parish?

When I visited the OCA church and the deacon, I believe, started singing “All Catechumens leave” or something to that effect, at the end of the mass of the catechumens, I almost left. Ha ha.

The Catechumens depart in a Roman Rite Mass at this same time, if they are in the Catechumenate, to go “break open the Word”. In the Roman Rite this part is called the Liturgy of the Word now, but it was previously called the Mass/Liturgy of the Catechumens in the Roman Rite as it is still called in the Divine Liturgy. The Holy Mysteries were intended to be reserved for Christians and the uninitiated were still in need of catechesis to prepare themselves to receive the Sacraments. Part of what we pray before reception of Eucharist is “Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss ; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom.” which also reflects this concern to not expose the Holy Mysteries to those who are not prepared to understand them, nor those who may wish to do harm to the Church.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Question: During a Vespers service(?), is there holy communion?

I really want to attend vespers at an Eastern Catholic church, but if there is communion, I will be darned if I have to stay in my pew while everyone goes up for communion. In that case, I’d rather wait till I have my first communion.

When I visited the OCA church and the deacon, I believe, started singing “All Catechumens leave” or something to that effect, at the end of the mass of the catechumens, I almost left. Ha ha.

Some basic Misunderstandings: 22 Eastern (Byzantine) Churches are in Full Communion with the Vatican. They are listed in Catholic Diocese under our Bishop.

• (1) We can Participate fully in Their Liturgy; and attending Saturday evening Vespers or Sunday Divine Liturgy fulfills Our Sunday Mass attendance obligation if our Mass not readily available.
• (2) We are not “Catechumens”. I never heard Catechumens being told to leave for Consecration; I’ve attended Byzantine and Orthodox Saturday Vespers and Sunday Dvine Liturgy. The Early Church in the Catacombs 1800 Years ago had Catechumens leave for Consecration and Communion back Then.
  

                                                                                                                     (3)  We  receive  Eastern/Byzantine  Communion  Their liturgical  way,  as they would  Our  Roman way    at our Mass.  We  fully  Observe Each  Other's  Cultural  Historic Traditions. Remember  Eastern/Byzantine    and Roman  are  In Full  Communion,  observing each other's  Liturgy   their  Way, Mutually.  We  can   walk up  at    Orthodox  Communion,  Hands  crossed on our Shoulders,  to  receive Their  Blessing  with  the  Cup on our Forehead;  Same  as Non-Catholics  receive  blessing    instead of Communion  by the  Priest.  
  
                                                                                                                   Our  Bishops  and Churches  recommend  following our Own Liturgies,  if possible;  Occassional  the Other's  is no  problem:  Our Or Their way.  We  can learn by  Watching  their Liturgy.   They  are the  "Eastern  Lung"  of the One Church  founded by  Christ,  with the  same  7  Sacraments He Founded,  but observed  differently.   Their   Divine Liturgy    and our Roman Mass have the same  components.  They  Chant The Lord's Prayer  as  is often done at Catholic Mass,  as  seen on Daily  EWTN   Mass.                               :signofcross::byzsoc:

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Hello!

You are right. Everybody gets salvation through Christ. Having said that, you may get closer to christ or not (this image of psocimity is not good but lets talk this way).
There is in the Catholic Church the Catholic Orthodox. The ones are separated from the Pope and started to drift away. Of course their sacraments are valid but they stopped on time.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

You are right. Everybody gets salvation through Christ. Having said that, you may get closer to christ or not (this image of psocimity is not good but lets talk this way).
There is in the Catholic Church the Catholic Orthodox. The ones are separated from the Pope and started to drift away. Of course their sacraments are valid but they stopped on time.

Guten Tag, Pfaffenhoffen. a few misnomers: “Catholic Orthodox” is Misnomer; They are in Full Comuinion with the Vatican, and are Known as the 22 Eastern/Byzantine Churches we can Fully Participate in each others Liturgical ways. The Orthodox Churches: mainly Greek or Russian, we can participate, but Not in Communion, and does not count for our Sunday Obligation, as Eastern/Byzantine does.

                                                                                                                     The Orthodox  Churches  are fairly close to  becoming  in Communion with the Vatican Also.                                                                                                                            Bayern    Gruss  Gott!  Latin   Knights of Columbus  Vivat Jesu.

 

[5Loaves]

• (2) We are not “Catechumens”. I never heard Catechumens being told to leave for Consecration; I’ve attended Byzantine and Orthodox Saturday Vespers and Sunday Dvine Liturgy. The Early Church in the Catacombs 1800 Years ago had Catechumens leave for Consecration and Communion ** back Then**.

You may not be a Catechumens however there are Catechumens among us, and in a parish of the Latin Church where there are Catechumens they normally are dismissed by the priest and leave the Holy Mass at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens AKA Liturgy of the Word, to go and “break open the Word” which they have just received and have heard preached on in the homily. If your Roman Rite parish doesn’t do this with their Catechumens that is their priest’s decision but it is not what is intended in the RCIA. The homily concludes the Liturgy of the Word/Catechumens in the Roman Rite. The next thing in the Mass is not the consecration but the recitation of the Creed and the unbaptized are not yet prepared to recite the “I believe” of the Credo.

If you have never heard the Dismissal of the Catechumens in Divine Liturgy, that may be because there were no Catechumens present in which case the priest may decide to not recite the Litany of the Catechumens which ends with the Dismissal. There is no Dismissal in Vespers so you certainly never heard it there.