First Youth Mass Tonight

[cmudd]

I, too, did not find anything offenseive about VociMike’s questions. I believe that they are justified so that we can get to the heart of the matter. After all the young OP did ask for an opinion and VociMike is simply trying to get clarification.

I am a journalist by degree. It is within my nature to ask questions in order to clarify something or to get the right information. When a post is rather open-ended, clarification is needed in order to formulate an accurate assessment of the OP’s situation.

Absolutely. I just re-examined his original question and I am really impressed by it. If the OP is unsure about clapping, why? And what about other expressions? If clapping is ok and cartwheels are not, why? What predicates acceptibility in devine worship (Catholic worship)?

The question asks the OP to get to the root of his querry. It does not rest with “is clapping right or wrong?” but asks the question why or why not.

 

[Joysong]

VociMike:

And, what awesome expressions of enthusiasm would you not allow in the Mass? Would you allow whistling? Whooping? Stomping? Shouting? Dancing in the aisles? High-fives? Are there any “awesome expressions of enthusiasm” that you would find problematic in the context of the Mass, and if so, which ones and why?

I doubt that Anamchara was pulling rabbits out of hats when she indicated this poster was rather sarcastic and condescending. And I seriously doubt that with the vocabulary expressed therein he was merely asking for clarification.

Does ‘asking for clarification’ include injecting six offensive characterizations that had nothing to do with the OP’s question? He only asked about ‘clapping.’

Has anyone considered the insult to this youngster who stated that he was a former Protestant? And consider well that he is only 12 or 13. Talk about crushing the bruised reed!

He is asking a simple question as one having come from a different religion and may not have knowledge of the Church’s rubrics. Who at 12 years old would know? in comparison with the zillions of threads the rest of us have viewed over the years whereby we gained this knowledge.

I think he deserves an apology, as does Anamchara.

Two cents.

 

[VociMike]

Absolutely. I just re-examined his original question and I am really impressed by it. If the OP is unsure about clapping, why? And what about other expressions? If clapping is ok and cartwheels are not, why? What predicates acceptibility in devine worship (Catholic worship)?

The question asks the OP to get to the root of his querry. It does not rest with “is clapping right or wrong?” but asks the question why or why not.

Thank you for comprehending. I hope the OP won’t be scared off by all the sound and fury, and will explore his own reaction further. Same goes for any others open to the exercise.

 

[benedictgal]

I doubt that Anamchara was pulling rabbits out of hats when she indicated this poster was rather sarcastic and condescending. And I seriously doubt that with the vocabulary expressed therein he was merely asking for clarification.

Does ‘asking for clarification’ include injecting six offensive characterizations that had nothing to do with the OP’s question? He only asked about ‘clapping.’

Has anyone considered the insult to this youngster who stated that he was a former Protestant? And consider well that he is only 12 or 13. Talk about crushing the bruised reed!

He is asking a simple question as one having come from a different religion and may not have knowledge of the Church’s rubrics. Who at 12 years old would know? in comparison with the zillions of threads the rest of us have viewed over the years whereby we gained this knowledge.

I think he deserves an apology, as does Anamchara.

Two cents.

First of all, when I used to help with wedding rehearsals (and helping to oversee the ceremony–telling “padrinos” when to come up to the altar and whatnaught) at our Cathedral, I was a witness to the whistling, whooping, stomping, shouting and high-fives. This occurred on numerous occasions, especially when the couple was pronounced as married in Christ. It really detracted from the solemnity of the liturgy. People forgot that they were in a sacred space. Understandably a wedding is a joyous occasion; however, we need to respect the dignity of the Church and realize that we are in the presence of, as Jesus himself said, “something greater here.”

Now, all of that is fine if you are at the reception hall and the couple has just made the grand entrance, but, not at Church, and, certainly not at Mass.

Now, I’m not saying that this is happening at this particular Youth liturgy. However, VociMike does have a legitimate concern. Maybe, Joysong, you are most blessed to not be a witness to this kind of activity (and, I mean this in the most sincere of terms); however, for those of us who have seen, heard and have had to gently, but, soberly tell the folks that enough was enough, it is very disconcerting.

As far as dancing in the aisles is concerned, I, too, have been subjected to the horrors of liturgical dance, especially after it was told to the nuns advocating this that this was not allowed (nor was taped music). Nonetheless, they superceded what the rector had said and did it anyway. But, that is for another thread. I mention it because it does fall under “dancing in the aisles.”

I stand with VociMIke on this one.

 

[St_Aloysius]

The clapping was WITH the song, not for the singers and players, who were excellent, however.

One song that we clapped to was BEFORE the actual Mass (a warm-up to get our focus on God and prepared to worship him in the Liturgy), the second was within the Liturgy, and was the last song actually. Our youth minister actually started it. I was sitting next to her and naturally joined it.

 

[Joysong]

Benedictgal,

As with the difficulties in cyber-space, and not being able to see facial expressions nor hear vocal tones, it is easy to interpret the post as offensive. If I were asking the question, I think I would have phrased it more delicately, especially considering the age of the OP and his religious background.

We are not talking here about a wedding where you have personally experienced these things, but an ordinary liturgy at a ‘youth mass’ where the music is apt to be more spirited than gregorian chant … and lawfully.

In the final analysis, let’s appreciate and respect that there was more than one way to interpret Voci-Mike’s post.

 

[benedictgal]

The clapping was WITH the song, not for the singers and players, who were excellent, however.

One song that we clapped to was BEFORE the actual Mass (a warm-up to get our focus on God and prepared to worship him in the Liturgy), the second was within the Liturgy, and was the last song actually. Our youth minister actually started it. I was sitting next to her and naturally joined it.

I’m happy you answered. Speaking for myself, I figured that you had homework or some other extra-curricular activity.

St. Aloysius, I was once your age, not too terribly long ago, as it’s been some 26 years since I was in the eighth grade at my Catholic school. I enjoyed going to Mass and was very involved in our school choir and in the Marian club. I was blessed with parents who sent me to a Catholic school for nine years (went through major culture shock when I went to public high school–parents couldn’t afford Catholic HS). I am of the early edition of the John Paul II generation, as he was elected pope when I was 11 years old (just one day after my birthday --I wanted a new pope for my birthday ).

From about the age of five (even before then), I was taught that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is something very special and very important. It’s something totally out of the ordinary. We enter God’s time. The veil between heaven and earth is lifted. We are very much as present at Calvary as the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene were.

Now, I’m not so old that I don’t remember what it was like to enjoy doing the things that you’re doing right now. We clapped during retreats and had a good time. We hung out with our friends during the breaks and tried to make new ones.

However, when it came time for Mass, things became different, very different. The music was different and the behavior was different. We were taught to pray and focus on what was happening during the Mass. The prayers were our “dialogue”, conversation, if you will, with God. We sang the psalm and the Gospel Acclamation, we listened to what the priest said (homily) and we saw Jesus come down to us at the moment of the Consecration. Then, as the priest broke the Sacred Host, Jesus died before us. It wasn’t a re-enactment, we went beyond time and space and were very much a part of what happened on Calvary. Then, we went to receive Jesus in Communion and spent time in silence telling Him how much we love Him and, hopefully, hearing Him tell us the same.

My young friend, there is a time and a place for everything. I may sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but, I believe that the Mass is not that time nor that place. Now, after Mass, when the Holy Father celebrates the Eucharist, people clap out of respect. But, that’s after Mass. During the Mass, our focus needs to be on what is happening. It’s a very powerful and dynamic meeting where Jesus comes to us. It’s also not some “feel good” experience. Feelings come and go. You’ll find that out as you get older (and start discovering girls). One day you’ll have a girlfriend and then 30 minutes later, you’ve broken up. Then, an hour later, you’re back together again. Feelings don’t last very long. It’s the deeper stuff that counts.

Sometimes, you won’t even feel that “fire” you mentioned in your original post. But, that’s okay. Even the great saints and holy people like Blessed Teresa of Calcutta went for long periods of time without feeling anything. Did that mean that God loved them any less or that they loved God any less? No. It means that they didn’t really on “feelings.”

I think that as adults, we try to make things snappy and snazzy for you young ones because we think that it will hold your attention. But, that’s not true. We’re giving you hand-clapping, but, maybe not enough substance.

St. Aloysious, one day, God told Elijah that He was going to come to him. Elijah heard thunder, but God was not in the thunder. He heard a powerful wind; but, no God. Then, he saw a huge fire; nope. Then, Elijah heard a small, whispering voice: that was God.

My point is that you need to center yourself on the Mass. And, spend time in prayer. The hand-clapping is okay for before the Mass, but, not during. You need to focus on the precious mystery that is unfolding before you at every Mass.

God bless you!

 

[Joysong]

St_Aloysius,

Thanks for sending the information to address your original question. I don’t see any problem with this since you clapped in one song prior to the liturgy as a prelude, and also in another to close it, where more spirit is often appropriate. You wouldn’t do this at communion, in other words, but I think you already know that. I see too, that you are a member of your group, and not the one making decisions, so you did nothing out of line.

I have been present at some young children’s liturgies where they sang some songs that just would not be effective without some type of animation.

Keep the fire!

 

[cmudd]

The clapping was WITH the song, not for the singers and players, who were excellent, however.

One song that we clapped to was BEFORE the actual Mass (a warm-up to get our focus on God and prepared to worship him in the Liturgy), the second was within the Liturgy, and was the last song actually. Our youth minister actually started it. I was sitting next to her and naturally joined it.

Clapping during mass is one of those things that tends to start off a firestorm in many circles. Before the Second Vatican Council, one never heard clapping at mass because the mass was correctly seen as a very solemn prayer. Since then, however, there has been an effort in many quarters to deemphasize the *sacred *in sacred liturgy. I think the term was called a hootenanny mass or something like that. While it is very clear that most of those who participate in such activity are in no way trying to demean the mass, clapping and other types of distracting behavior (liturgical dancing, holding hands, inappropriate attire, etc.) reflect a lack of true understanding of the solemn and introspective nature of one’s participation at mass.

As a new and young Catholic, you may not be aware of many these issues, but it will serve you well to reflect on why you go to mass. Do we go to get energized, to engage in banal acts of “community” with those around us, or to be entertained? No. We go to mass to reflect on our relationship with Christ. To listen to and participate in the prayers in an effort to aid in that task.

I think that is why VociMike’s question was such a good one. First, it recognized in your OP the fact that something or someone led you to think that clapping may not be appropriate. Next, it recognized the greater issue at hand, in that if there is something wrong with clapping, what is it and why. Finally, it highlighted a possible distinction (or lack there of) among other non-proscribed activity that may occur during the sacred liturgy.

Nevertheless, your feelings of enthusiasm are not to be dismissed. They are a good thing. But you can get so much more out of mass. The more you investigate the history, richness, and solemnity of the mass, you will begin to understand how and why we can get so much more out of it than an enthusiastic charge of energy.

Also, it can be very distracting to those who are quietly praying before, during, and after mass. Think of this: being that the mass is the un-bloody re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary, is clapping something that is called for? Would we clap and dance and play the drums at the foot of the cross while Christ hang there dying for our sins? It is definitely something to think about and perhaps to bring to the attention of your youth director.

God Bless.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Well its a teen mass so I shouldnt be surprised yall would clap. I perfer to keep mass more solem but a teen mass is different. Being a teen I can see why it would be natural to clap but I just dont prefer it. However with the ordinary form I’m strongly against clapping with the song.

 

[Strummer]

The clapping was WITH the song, not for the singers and players, who were excellent, however.

One song that we clapped to was BEFORE the actual Mass (a warm-up to get our focus on God and prepared to worship him in the Liturgy), the second was within the Liturgy, and was the last song actually. Our youth minister actually started it. I was sitting next to her and naturally joined it.

WITH the song? Oh, then it was part of the congregational response, part of the “music” if you will (music is not just words and melody) and perfectly fine given the setting and the call of the Spirit at that particular time and place. Don’t let the fuddy-duddies get you down. Sadly there are some who believe God is so limited that one’s response to Him is similarly limited. You experienced something else entirely. Naturally, a word of Catholic caution would be wise here (not letting the emotion of the moment carry you away from the source of that emotion/moment), but your concern demonstrates just how cognizant you are of that and so I have no worries for you.

Bless you and all who work in that ministry that touched you (and no doubt dozens or hundreds of others).

 

[Joysong]

cmudd:

Also, it can be very distracting to those who are quietly praying before, during, and after mass.

Remember, cmudd, that the OP is not serving in an ordinary liturgy, but in a youth liturgy, which I presume was advertised in the bulletin. If someone wanted to pray quietly before mass, then they need to come earlier, for during the Christmas season especially, there are many parishes that have preludes prior to the start of Mass. As for during mass, I saw no reason for concern, since he said they did not use that type of song; but even then, the mass was advertised and any who cannot exercise common charity and forebearance should not be at that mass.

The parish with its liturgy accommodates many types of individuals and cannot be expected to be all things to all people simultaneously. You apparently uphold the right of some to pray in silence as the norm to be imposed upon all, but there are others who appreciate soft music or a vocal prelude, especially at Christmas. Our choir sang some beautiful hymns prior to mass, which was warmly received by most people.

Think of this: being that the mass is the un-bloody re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary, is clapping something that is called for? Would we clap and dance and play the drums at the foot of the cross while Christ hang there dying for our sins?

I have seen this argument a few times, mostly given by traditionalists who use it to justify almost anything that they dislike in a liturgy. The theology is poor, for it fails to consider the total paschal mystery being celebrated, as though it is only calvary to the exclusion of the resurrection, which calls for joy.

We are not talking about clapping for clapping’s sake, but clapping in a youth liturgy within a song to give it their mode of expression. It is perfectly licit for this particular liturgy. You probably would be aghast at some of the expressions in African liturgies, but that is their culture, and it is permitted for them.

I’m concerned that this young lad is getting conflicting advice in this thread which will be very difficult for him to decipher, and burdens him with a potential and unwarranted guilt trip. I don’t believe it would be appropriate for him to sit quietly while being an active member of a youth choir, while the other singers in the group are clapping, and it would be disrespectful to his director who is leading the choir.

If he is reading, I would say follow in obedience what your director indicates as long as you participate in that group.

 

[japhy]

Also, it can be very distracting to those who are quietly praying before, during, and after mass.

Remember, cmudd, that the OP is not serving in an ordinary liturgy, but in a youth liturgy, which I presume was advertised in the bulletin.

What’s stopping the people praying quietly before Mass from also being the young people attending the Mass? Have we come to expect that young people simply do not pray (quietly, if at all) before, after, or during Mass? Maybe they just haven’t been taught.

 

[pnewton]

What’s stopping the people praying quietly before Mass from also being the young people attending the Mass?

Nothing, just like nothing to stop them from singing before Mass. I believe the key is to have a known and advertised routine so there are no surprises. The Church is big enough for different people. Outside of Mass is a much more appropriate place for a lot of things that people try to squeeze into Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

What’s stopping the people praying quietly before Mass from also being the young people attending the Mass? Have we come to expect that young people simply do not pray (quietly, if at all) before, after, or during Mass? Maybe they just haven’t been taught.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. The problem is that there are those who are so quick to throw around the traditionalist label (which I don’t mind wearing) that they forget the real crux of the Mass.

I meant what I wrote to the OP. You need to realize that at the Mass, something, Someone, greater than yourself is there. You are doing and being part of something that is out of the ordinary.

Now, St. John Bosco had several hundred youths gathered at his oratories. They sang, danced, played games and had fun. However, when it came time for the Mass, everything changed. Granted, this was in the 19th century, but the aspect of the Mass as SACRIFICE and as something SOLEMN and DIGNIFIED has never changed. Were these young people “turned off” by the solemnity and the sobriety? NO. In fact, one of them became a saint (Dominic Savio); one of them wound up being Don Bosco’s first successor and another wound up being a bishop.

Joysong, I do take exception to your remark:

The theology is poor, for it fails to consider the total paschal mystery being celebrated, as though it is only calvary to the exclusion of the resurrection, which calls for joy.

Perhaps you have not read the Holy Father’s homily that he preached on Holy Thursday 2007.

Thus, the Cross was at the centre of the new Passover of Jesus. From it came the new gift brought by him, and so it lives on for ever in the Blessed Eucharist in which, down the ages, we can celebrate the new Passover with the Apostles.

From Christ’s Cross comes the gift. “No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord”. He now offers it to us.

The paschal haggada, the commemoration of God’s saving action, has become a memorial of the Cross and Resurrection of Christ - a memorial that does not simply recall the past but attracts us within the presence of Christ’s love.

Thus, the berakah, Israel’s prayer of blessing and thanksgiving, has become our Eucharistic celebration in which the Lord blesses our gifts - the bread and wine - to give himself in them.
Let us pray to the Lord that he will help us to understand this marvellous mystery ever more profoundly, to love it more and more, and in it, to love the Lord himself ever more.

You are only reading things in a tiny box. You cannot have the Resurrection without the Last Supper and without Calvary. Focusing only on the Resurrection while leaving out the Last Supper and Calvary makes for even poorer theology. The Mass is called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for a reason. Hand-clapping has its place during retreats, but, not during the Holy Sacrifice.

Strummer, I don’t mind being called a fuddy duddy because that’s how I called myself. However, I believe that you missed the point of my lengthy post when you said:

Don’t let the fuddy-duddies get you down. Sadly there are some who believe God is so limited that one’s response to Him is similarly limited.

There is a time and a place for clapping. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not such a place. The problem is that when we begin to introduce innovations that deviate from the norm, we let creativity reign over the norms and over appropriate behavior. The Mass calls for solemnity, dignity and sobriety. Something truly out of the ordinary is happening here, but, if you have too many things that don’t have anything to do with the central act, then, you make those more important than the Mystery that is unfolding before you.

 

[japhy]

Nothing, just like nothing to stop them from singing before Mass. I believe the key is to have a known and advertised routine so there are no surprises. The Church is big enough for different people. Outside of Mass is a much more appropriate place for a lot of things that people try to squeeze into Mass.

You’re missing my point, I think. Prayerful “warming up” and musical warming up are two different things. Was there any time for prayer before Mass? Was it suggested to them? Or was there mingling and talking until the warm-up began, followed by Mass?

 

[Joysong]

benedictgal:

Joysong, I do take exception to your remark:
Perhaps you have not read the Holy Father’s homily that he preached on Holy Thursday 2007.

The paschal haggada, the commemoration of God’s saving action, has become a memorial of the Cross and Resurrection of Christ …
You are only reading things in a tiny box. You cannot have the Resurrection without the Last Supper and without Calvary. Focusing only on the Resurrection while leaving out the Last Supper and Calvary makes for even poorer theology.

I see nothing in the Holy Father’s words that exclude the Resurrection. My words were: the total paschal mystery, which focuses on both and the canon is richly expressive of this. You are condescendingly putting words in my mouth, I’m afraid, for I said nothing about exclusive focus on the Resurrection to the detriment of Calvary. Assumption: I know nothing about liturgy due to my tiny box.

The Mass is called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for a reason. Hand-clapping has its place during retreats, but, not during the Holy Sacrifice.

In your humble opinion. May we not put this in the mouth of the Church?

There is a time and a place for clapping. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not such a place. The problem is that when we begin to introduce innovations that deviate from the norm, we let creativity reign over the norms and over appropriate behavior. The Mass calls for solemnity, dignity and sobriety.

Assumption: Clapping within a song is an innovation and cannot possibly show reverence, and to maintain sobriety, joy is inappropriate?

Benedictgal, I sense that this will become another hamster wheel and I have no desire to entertain that ride. You may preach what you wish from this point, and I am so saddened that honest dialogue has again been thwarted. You seem to find joy in dissecting people’s words and degrading them without a morsel of tact that invites continued discussion.

 

[AlexV]

Of course nowhere in the Roman liturgy does hand-clapping appear as a part of the service. Even the 1977 Zairean Usage as published does not mention it.

Then again, some people will justify almost anything.

 

[benedictgal]

I see nothing in the Holy Father’s words that exclude the Resurrection. My words were: the total paschal mystery, which focuses on both and the canon is richly expressive of this. You are condescendingly putting words in my mouth, I’m afraid, for I said nothing about exclusive focus on the Resurrection to the detriment of Calvary. Assumption: I know nothing about liturgy due to my tiny box.

In your humble opinion. May we not put this in the mouth of the Church?

Assumption: Clapping within a song is an innovation and cannot possibly show reverence, and to maintain sobriety, joy is inappropriate?

Benedictgal, I sense that this will become another hamster wheel and I have no desire to entertain that ride. You may preach what you wish from this point, and I am so saddened that honest dialogue has again been thwarted. You seem to find joy in dissecting people’s words and degrading them without a morsel of tact that invites continued discussion.

First of all, your tone is rather uncharitable. You are the one who has taken things out of context on many threads. The real issue is that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is something solemn and sacred. Activity such as hand-clapping is best reserved for outside the confines of the Mass. What part of that do you not understand?

You roll eyes because you don’t agree. However, show me something in the documents that calls for hand-clapping with the music? This is not a Pentecostal service. This is the Mass.

Alex V speaks the truth. The problem is that over the course of 40 years, people have been so caught up with the spirit of Vactican II that they forgot (or, in some cases, ignored) what Vatican II and all of the documents resulting from same have rightfully said.

Remember, too, that the Lineamata that the Bishops used for the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist mentioned many shadows that have tried to eclipse the liturgy. One of the main problems was the Youth Mass.

 

[anamchara]

I doubt that Anamchara was pulling rabbits out of hats when she indicated this poster was rather sarcastic and condescending. And I seriously doubt that with the vocabulary expressed therein he was merely asking for clarification.

Why thank ye Joysong! No I wasn’t pulling any rabbits. The questions seemed suspect to me because it sounded more like “why are you asking us when you obviously know better”

If anyone doesn’t think the clapping was the right thing then say so and give Church documentation on it. I don’t like sneaky "and so why do you think this is wrong hmmmmmm!!! "

This thread really moved along. We do clap in our parish during the youth Mass. At certain times, often at the end or sometimes other parts. No where that is wrong as far as I have read. I looked over all sorts of things yesterday and couldn’t find one thing that said this can’t be done.

So clap and be happy people!