First Youth Mass Tonight

[snhs]

So they shouldn’t come at all if they aren’t coming for the right reasons?

Again, as i stated before…I wasn’t arguing for any points, just the state of many teenagers today. I did not say one word about “happy clappy”. (and by the way, I don’t think the natural incliniation to clap to rhythm to and ending song qualifies the sarcastic name of “happy clappy”)

This comment you made that they aren’t coming for the right reasons…yet another person that doesn’t know teenagers well. THEY AREN’T COMING AT ALL!!! I think ANY reason we can get them there (cute girls, great music, future friends, relationship to the youth minsiter…whatever) is a great reason. But we have to get them there. We can’t get them there on good reasons if they aren’t coming in the first place. If you read my earlier post, the state of many teenagers today (not all of course), is in a place where they see no need for God.

You say if they come to listen to the music, that’s all they will do. Not true. Once we get them there, we evangelize. I’ve seen it done over and over again.

Look, again, I am not arguing for or against anything in this post, I’m arguing against the reasonings that are given. These do not hold water.

If the only reason they are attending a Mass is to hear their mates play music then yes in my opinion it is wrong given the nature of Mass. If you look at the Bible Jesus didn’t tell jokes, dress up in costumes, or pull out a guitar to call young people to the faith.

I think if it sounds like it and looks like it then in this context it is logical to assume that it is happy clappy. It is also far from a ‘natural inclination’ especially given that its only reached such predominance over the last few decades. Historically both the French and Italians are renowned for their love of and engagement with music yet very seldom, if ever, did they resort to clapping along.

Actually I am a teenager and coincidentally I do know quite a few teenagers, some of them quite well surprisingly, and I’ve spent a reasonable amount of time both at school and University with them. It is true that a lot of them don’t go to Mass, however quite a few still do. It is grossly unfair to write off those teenagers who do go to Mass as some sort of weird anomaly and it is attitudes such as yours which are more likely to put them off going to Mass than anything else.

“ANY reason” Interesting so perhaps opening a brothel, that will get a few more punters, and how about opening a casino with binge drinking every night of the week and maybe a rock group instead of Eucharistic Adoration. Would those be great reasons to attend a Mass? I wonder if people ever went up to the Temple to speak to the money traders, that might have got people going to the synagogue but it didn’t stop Jesus saying they were wrong. Maybe if we paid them to come it would help as well, but I don’t think it will bring them any closer to salvation.

I disagree with you here, how do you expect to evangelise anyone when they are there for an hour to listen to someone strum a guitar? If it has been pre ordained that the only way to save these people is by playing music to them then go ahead, but don’t try to change the Mass to add it in. Have a concert by all means, do your evangelising there or at schools, houses where ever else. But when they come to Church for Mass it should be not to listen to a band, look at girls or anything of the sort it should be to commemorate the sacrifice of Our Lord for the salvation of mankind not the base and superficial reasons your propose.

Quite clearly you are arguing for something, even if you don’t want to admit it, you are arguing that the reasons given so far do not hold water, with the apparent presumption that your own do. If you truly believe that attending Mass to look at girls or because of a ‘relationship’ with a youth minister is a proper reason to attend Mass then please provide some sort of justification for it based in the Catholic faith. Your only current justification seems to be the end justifies the means, but just how far do you think it acceptable to degrade the sacrifice of Mass before its message is completely lost?

 

[agapewolf]

If the only reason they are attending a Mass is to hear their mates play music then yes in my opinion it is wrong given the nature of Mass. If you look at the Bible Jesus didn’t tell jokes, dress up in costumes, or pull out a guitar to call young people to the faith.

I think if it sounds like it and looks like it then in this context it is logical to assume that it is happy clappy. It is also far from a ‘natural inclination’ especially given that its only reached such predominance over the last few decades. Historically both the French and Italians are renowned for their love of and engagement with music yet very seldom, if ever, did they resort to clapping along.

Actually I am a teenager and coincidentally I do know quite a few teenagers, some of them quite well surprisingly, and I’ve spent a reasonable amount of time both at school and University with them. It is true that a lot of them don’t go to Mass, however quite a few still do. It is grossly unfair to write off those teenagers who do go to Mass as some sort of weird anomaly and it is attitudes such as yours which are more likely to put them off going to Mass than anything else.

“ANY reason” Interesting so perhaps opening a brothel, that will get a few more punters, and how about opening a casino with binge drinking every night of the week and maybe a rock group instead of Eucharistic Adoration. Would those be great reasons to attend a Mass? I wonder if people ever went up to the Temple to speak to the money traders, that might have got people going to the synagogue but it didn’t stop Jesus saying they were wrong. Maybe if we paid them to come it would help as well, but I don’t think it will bring them any closer to salvation.

I disagree with you here, how do you expect to evangelise anyone when they are there for an hour to listen to someone strum a guitar? If it has been pre ordained that the only way to save these people is by playing music to them then go ahead, but don’t try to change the Mass to add it in. Have a concert by all means, do your evangelising there or at schools, houses where ever else. But when they come to Church for Mass it should be not to listen to a band, look at girls or anything of the sort it should be to commemorate the sacrifice of Our Lord for the salvation of mankind not the base and superficial reasons your propose.

Quite clearly you are arguing for something, even if you don’t want to admit it, you are arguing that the reasons given so far do not hold water, with the apparent presumption that your own do. If you truly believe that attending Mass to look at girls or because of a ‘relationship’ with a youth minister is a proper reason to attend Mass then please provide some sort of justification for it based in the Catholic faith. Your only current justification seems to be the end justifies the means, but just how far do you think it acceptable to degrade the sacrifice of Mass before its message is completely lost?

No I did NOT say that attending for those reasons are proper…I said no such thing and do not twist my words. I did not say it is right at all. We agree on this point. But there are people that are holding the point that they shouldn’t be there at all if they aren’t there for the right reasons. THAT is what I am arguing against.

How can we evangelize them if they come for the wrong reasons? Simple…they witness the Eucharist. They are physically close to the divine. We let GOD do the basics of the work. Once we get them there, we evangelize. No matter what reasons got them there.

I am not writing off teenagers and your statement is insulting. I have been working in youth work for over 10 years now. Lots of vocations have come from the programs I have been involved in…It is not my attitude that puts them off from coming to mass, it is my understanding of where they are that makes them want to come.

 

[snhs]

No I did NOT say that attending for those reasons are proper…I said no such thing and do not twist my words. I did not say it is right at all. We agree on this point. But there are people that are holding the point that they shouldn’t be there at all if they aren’t there for the right reasons. THAT is what I am arguing against.

How can we evangelize them if they come for the wrong reasons? Simple…they witness the Eucharist. They are physically close to the divine. We let GOD do the basics of the work. Once we get them there, we evangelize. No matter what reasons got them there.

You said and I quote:

I think ANY reason we can get them there (cute girls, great music, future friends, relationship to the youth minsiter…whatever) is a great reason. But we have to get them there.

You said any reason is a great reason. If you wish to retract what you said then do so, but what you implied was that it (any reason) is a good, even a great reason to be at a Mass.

If it is going to disrupt the Mass for others, who are there of their own free will and for the right reasons, then I don’t think they should be. The fact is the vast majority of parishes which ‘add’ a youth Mass take up one of the pre-existing Masses and in doing so disrupt the worship of those who already attend and may either force them to change Mass time or put up with practices (clapping et al) which they young/old/whatever else find unconducive to prayerful worship. Take the parable of the missing sheep, the shepard went off to find the one that was lost. He didn’t force the other sheep to come along on his search and that is what imposing youth Masses on congregations do.

Once we get them there again, the end justifying the means. If they do not understand the sacrifice taking place, which a lot of them don’t, then its going to have little/no effect. There is one Homily where the Priest may have some opportunity of evangelising but apart from that no amount of clapping/guitar playing/drumming or anything else is going to help. In short unless they know the divine already it is of no benefit, those who are already aware of the divine aren’t generally in need of evangelising, hence if you are preaching to the converted then they won’t care if you’re providing a concert because they will be completely focused on the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[snhs]

I am not writing off teenagers and your statement is insulting. I have been working in youth work for over 10 years now. Lots of vocations have come from the programs I have been involved in…It is not my attitude that puts them off from coming to mass, it is my understanding of where they are that makes them want to come.

If you are involved with youth work then thats great, but to be honest speaking as a young person, who has been at a lot of diocesan youth things, the people running them often seem desperate, play to every stereotype in the book and are far more likely to become figures of ridicule who put people off than a draw to the Church. (**N.B.**I’m not wanting to be in any way insulting to you and it may be that your groups are completely different, not to mention any cultural differences in American teenagers, but that is how I and many people I have spoken to find this kind of thing, even if they do/do not attend Church regularly).

You said in your last post, in caps which I believe implies shouting, “THEY (teenagers) AREN’T COMING AT ALL”. In saying that you are suggesting that those who do go to Mass are somehow irrelevant, apparently they aren’t coming to Mass at all. If we like Gregorian Chant or any hint of the scared then youth Masses can be a huge turn off, and we are seen as in someway abnormal. Your kind of ministry although it can be good at attracting specific groups of young people can also put off those who are already in the Church. Even calling it youth ministry is misleading given that it is often only applicable to young people who like a certain type of music or need a reason to come to Mass beyond Our Lord’s sacrifice.

If you have such a great understanding of young people then shouldn’t you realise just how irritating the “I know a lot of people your age are having sex parties” etc attitude is. This kind of stereotype not only puts additional pressure on young people to conform but can also make them feel comfortable in their faith, it takes quite a strong/stubborn personality to ignore all of that pressure and just get on with what you know to be right. Being perfectly honest the kind of views you have supplied so far would put me off going to a Mass you were involved in organising, and yes I’m just one young person but I’m sure there are a lot of others. The whole point of evangelising is to go out, eventually we bring them to the Church community, but we shouldn’t be waiting for them to give into whatever gimmicks the local church is using nor should they be coming for the kind of superficial reasons you proposed.

 

[agapewolf]

My mistake on the “reasons”…I didn’t mean they are good reasons, but it is great that they are there no matter what reasons.

You have no idea how I approach youth around me. The way I discuss this matter here is not how I minister to the youth around me, especially to the ones who aren’t going to Mass.

Do not twist my words. again…I did not say that the teens that are coming are irrelevant, but the ones that happily go to mass with their families aren’t as in need of a youth ministry than the ones who aren’t going at all.

You said:
*If it is going to disrupt the Mass for others, who are there of their own free will and for the right reasons, then I don’t think they should be. *

So babies and young children shouldn’t be at mass because they are disruptive? They are there because their parents brought them or made them…

You said:
*. If they do not understand the sacrifice taking place, which a lot of them don’t, then its going to have little/no effect. *

How arrogant to think that you know how God works. God will work through anything. What you are saying means that no one should bother inviting any non-Catholic to mass who doesn’t understand the faith because it will have little to no effect. Just being in the church during a mass, whether anyone knows whats going on or not can bestow infinite graces. This is why mother theresa said to bring the young people to the Eucharist.

This is why the church has approved and encouraged youth masses.

 

[snhs]

My mistake on the “reasons”…I didn’t mean they are good reasons, but it is great that they are there no matter what reasons.

You have no idea how I approach youth around me. The way I discuss this matter here is not how I minister to the youth around me, especially to the ones who aren’t going to Mass.

Do not twist my words. again…I did not say that the teens that are coming are irrelevant, but the ones that happily go to mass with their families aren’t as in need of a youth ministry than the ones who aren’t going at all.

You said:
*If it is going to disrupt the Mass for others, who are there of their own free will and for the right reasons, then I don’t think they should be. *

So babies and young children shouldn’t be at mass because they are disruptive? They are there because their parents brought them or made them…

You said:
*. If they do not understand the sacrifice taking place, which a lot of them don’t, then its going to have little/no effect. *

How arrogant to think that you know how God works. God will work through anything. What you are saying means that no one should bother inviting any non-Catholic to mass who doesn’t understand the faith because it will have little to no effect. Just being in the church during a mass, whether anyone knows whats going on or not can bestow infinite graces. This is why mother theresa said to bring the young people to the Eucharist.

This is why the church has approved and encouraged youth masses.

I did actually specifically say that it may not apply to you/your group in the slightest.

How did you expect it to be taken when you said “THEY AREN’T COMING AT ALL”. Its manifestly false, some are coming to Mass and some, many in fact, are coming without the Parish Priest sticking a rock band in instead of the organist. Again you now presume that any teen, not involved with your kind of group, goes with their family. It is just as likely that they will go alone, with friends etc., again without trying to change the music or anything else about the Mass to suit their preference.

Babies and young children are of course a different matter, although arguably their crying is far more desirable than some of the racket that occurs with music groups. Their parents also had them baptised in the hope of their salvation and seek to reinforce that by taking them to Mass and providing some Catechism at home. The children have been entrusted to their parents in the same kind of way God entrusted Jesus to St Joseph, his earthly father, as such it is part of their function to raise them in the faith, and that includes attending Mass.

At what time did I claim to understand how God works? I was referring to understanding that on the Altar a mystery takes place during the Mass by which bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and by that sacrifice we can hope for salvation. At no point did I say that the Lord can’t work in any way he chooses and yes he can and has caused spontaneous conversions. But there is no need to get them to a Mass for that to happen just look at the conversion on the Road to Damascus. I said ‘little or no effect’ and in the vast majority of cases that is just what it will be. If on the other hand they come to the Mass having spoken to someone either their own age/a Priest etc who does understand the faith, and they understand what is going on in the Mass then that effect is likely to be amplified. Its also far more likely they will respect the beliefs of those who are there and won’t comment on a girl in the front row (or break into clapping in rhythm or throwing a tantrum, for some reason I think we can expect more of teenagers than babies and children, don’t you?)

If you are so big on evangelising then surely you shouldn’t be reliant on attracting them to the Church for it to happen. Those who are most in need are surely those who have never had the chance to hear of the Church and those who wouldn’t go to a Church no matter what you were holding in it. If your ministry, as you imply, is directed at those most in need then surely you should be starting with those people of other faiths who have not received Baptism etc.

Just because the Church approves of something or encourages something does not give those who run it carte blanche to do what they like. If it claims to be a youth Mass then it should cater for all the youth or use a name which is not likely to create an artificial distance between their faith and that of their friends.

 

[agapewolf]

I

How did you expect it to be taken when you said “THEY AREN’T COMING AT ALL”. Its manifestly false, some are coming to Mass and some, many in fact, are coming without the Parish Priest sticking a rock band in instead of the organist. Again you now presume that any teen, not involved with your kind of group, goes with their family. It is just as likely that they will go alone, with friends etc., again without trying to change the music or anything else about the Mass to suit their preference.

*I made no such presumptions, it was just one example. geesh. My reference to they aren’t coming at all, was to the majority of teens that in the schools that aren’t coming. *

At what time did I claim to understand how God works? I was referring to understanding that on the Altar a mystery takes place during the Mass by which bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and by that sacrifice we can hope for salvation. At no point did I say that the Lord can’t work in any way he chooses and yes he can and has caused spontaneous conversions. But there is no need to get them to a Mass for that to happen just look at the conversion on the Road to Damascus. I said ‘little or no effect’ and in the vast majority of cases that is just what it will be. If on the other hand they come to the Mass having spoken to someone either their own age/a Priest etc who does understand the faith, and they understand what is going on in the Mass then that effect is likely to be amplified. Its also far more likely they will respect the beliefs of those who are there and won’t comment on a girl in the front row (or break into clapping in rhythm or throwing a tantrum, for some reason I think we can expect more of teenagers than babies and children, don’t you?)

If you are so big on evangelising then surely you shouldn’t be reliant on attracting them to the Church for it to happen. Those who are most in need are surely those who have never had the chance to hear of the Church and those who wouldn’t go to a Church no matter what you were holding in it. If your ministry, as you imply, is directed at those most in need then surely you should be starting with those people of other faiths who have not received Baptism etc.

Just because the Church approves of something or encourages something does not give those who run it carte blanche to do what they like. If it claims to be a youth Mass then it should cater for all the youth or use a name which is not likely to create an artificial distance between their faith and that of their friends.

Again, I never said I was arguing the point about abuses in youth mass. I was arguing against reasons. You made a point against youth masses in general, I was refuting that point. You are introducing other aspects that are not part of the argument. I didnt’ say peopel should do whatever they like.

Evangelising teens can come many ways, one being getting them to Mass, as mother theresa said. Letting God do the work through the sacraments.

You say that I’m so insulting to teenagers yet you give such ludicrous examples and them “Throwing tantrums” in church to try to exaggerate to prove a point. It doesn’ work.

You did claim to know how God works when you said:

*. If they do not understand the sacrifice taking place, which a lot of them don’t, then its going to have little/no effect. *

Getting them in the presence of the Eucharist lets God do work. You claiming that it won’t have any effect is the problem. There is no need to get them to mass for conversion to happen? This is ridiculous. There is plenty of need to get them to Mass.

I’m struggling here getting my points across… you seem to take my statements so literally in order to prove some other points that don’t even connect. I just started this whole thing because of people’s reasonings about things were not holding water. This is exactly what I hate getting into because it exhausts me. THe simple truth is that my experiences are my experiences…and I have witness GREAT AMAZING things from the concept of the youth mass. Huge conversions, vocations, teens coming back from going to protestant faith, etc etc etc.

I’m leaving it at this. It’s getting ridiculous and it not gaining insight.

 

[snhs]

Again, I never said I was arguing the point about abuses in youth mass. I was arguing against reasons. You made a point against youth masses in general, I was refuting that point. You are introducing other aspects that are not part of the argument. I didnt’ say peopel should do whatever they like.

Evangelising teens can come many ways, one being getting them to Mass, as mother theresa said. Letting God do the work through the sacraments.

You say that I’m so insulting to teenagers yet you give such ludicrous examples and them “Throwing tantrums” in church to try to exaggerate to prove a point. It doesn’ work.

You did claim to know how God works when you said:

*. If they do not understand the sacrifice taking place, which a lot of them don’t, then its going to have little/no effect. *

Getting them in the presence of the Eucharist lets God do work. You claiming that it won’t have any effect is the problem. There is no need to get them to mass for conversion to happen? This is ridiculous. There is plenty of need to get them to Mass.

I’m struggling here getting my points across… you seem to take my statements so literally in order to prove some other points that don’t even connect. I just started this whole thing because of people’s reasonings about things were not holding water. This is exactly what I hate getting into because it exhausts me. THe simple truth is that my experiences are my experiences…and I have witness GREAT AMAZING things from the concept of the youth mass. Huge conversions, vocations, teens coming back from going to protestant faith, etc etc etc.

I’m leaving it at this. It’s getting ridiculous and it not gaining insight.

It was an example directly related to your introduction of babies and children. The point I made was that we do not expect the same standards from these groups. You had suggested that babies crying in a Mass was the same kind of act as a teenager clapping and as such they to should not attend Mass. I was refuting this point by pointing out that our standards for these two groups are different, babies often can’t control when they cry teenagers can (or should, at any rate) be able to control whether they clap along to a song.

Again you’ve got this wrong the quote does not demonstrate your point. The understanding of the sacrifice I was referring to doesn’t extend to knowing how God works in everything as you appear to think. My point was that they should be aware of why the Mass is occurring and what Catholic belief says is happening during the consecration, for example.

I said it would have “little/no effect”. If all they see when they look at the sacrifice on the Altar is a bit of bread and a cup of wine then its not going to do anything. They could have a divine revelation, as I said its happened and will do again, but for every convert who goes to a Mass and suddenly understands whats going on/wants to convert there have been thousands more who were converted by hearing people talk of God in the street, at the pub, at school etc.

So you now think for a conversion to happen they must go to Mass? As I mentioned St Paul was converted on the Road to Damascus. Eventually he became a Saint obviously and would have been baptised, went to Mass etc but before any of that his conversion happened when he was blinded on a public highway. This would imply that there is no need to get to them to Church or a Mass for them to be converted to belief in God and his Church, unless you want to dispute the validity of that section of the Acts?

Maybe you have, and maybe they were genuinely converted to the Catholic faith. Equally I think the lives of the Saints are amazing, and most of them were born into/joined the faith in a Church which did not play waltzes or the equivalent of pop music to attract them to the faith in the first place. It is also possible though that they have returned/came to the Church because the music is now more appealing or because their friends have started going. IF thats the case then its rather less amazing, and if they continue going to Mass for the rest of their lives but never look into what their belief says happens during the consecration, for example it is again rather less amazing.

 

[agapewolf]

No, I was not talking about teenagers clapping. You said those that don’t understand why they are there would be “disruptive”.

That covers All those that are disruptive. It was point to point.

I am also talking about more than just an intellectual conversion of catechesis. Yes, most anyone’s presence in the EUcharist, whether they understand it or not, will be effected by being in the presence…regardless if the explanation or understanding happens or not. Nothing may come of it, but continuous company of the Eucharist will have an effect on the soul.

Again, you still took my words way too literally than trying to understand my concepts. It’s too hard to communicate. I’m done.

 

[benedictgal]

No, I was not talking about teenagers clapping. You said those that don’t understand why they are there would be “disruptive”.

That covers All those that are disruptive. It was point to point.

I am also talking about more than just an intellectual conversion of catechesis. Yes, most anyone’s presence in the EUcharist, whether they understand it or not, will be effected by being in the presence…regardless if the explanation or understanding happens or not. Nothing may come of it, but continuous company of the Eucharist will have an effect on the soul.

Again, you still took my words way too literally than trying to understand my concepts. It’s too hard to communicate. I’m done.

Agapewolf, perhaps you might want to step back and objectively evaluate the situation. You said that all Youth Masses were approved. The concept may have been approved, but, certainly not everything that happens within those liturgies has the okay from the Holy See. If that were the case, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist specifically cite the music used at Youth Masses as a shadow, a serious area of concern? Why did Cardinal Arinze issue a strong directive that gathering around the altar during the LifeTeen Mass had to cease and desist? Why did the same Cardinal also rule that the rock-music atmosphere of these liturgies had to stop?

Now, in researching LifeTeen, and, thanks, in part, to another member of the forum who has a thread on the subject, I have some serious reservations about what exactly is taught about the Mass at these particular liturgies:

In the days before the Vatican Council, the Church was so concerned that mystery be preserved that it cloaked the
mysteries Jesus revealed to us. When man-made mysteries
were eliminated by the Liturgical reforms of the Second
Vatican Council, many people still complain that the mystery
was being eliminated. This is incorrect. The mystery is
more intense than ever because it is directly in front of us.

This comes straight out of the LifeTeen liturgical planner, agapewolf. It is also in serious error. I tried giving the movement the benefit of the doubt, but, when I read this, it immediately sent up a huge red flag that something was very wrong. Misinformation, like what appears in this guide, does more damage than anything and is clearly not what happened at the Second Vatican Council.

 

[agapewolf]

. You said that all Youth Masses were approved. The concept may have been approved, but, certainly not everything that happens within those liturgies has the okay from the Holy See. If that were the case, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist specifically cite the music used at Youth Masses as a shadow, a serious area of concern? Why did Cardinal Arinze issue a strong directive that gathering around the altar during the LifeTeen Mass had to cease and desist? Why did the same Cardinal also rule that the rock-music atmosphere of these liturgies had to stop?

.

Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I have to say this again. I did not say that ALL youth masses were approved. I said the concept of a youth mass is approved and encouraged.

And again,as I have told this countless times before…Cardinal Arinze in no way told the gathering around the altar had to “cease and disist” . I know you like that expression, but that is absolutely incorrect with what happened. They were offerered an indult by Cardinal Arinze. LT decided to not take it. Stop saying that he did such things that he did not do.

And in fact, again, there are only three things that were corrected with the new GIRM. nothing was made mention of the music.

Again, everyone is twisting words again, and using the same old tired arguements. But I suppose that this is your specialty,…saying the same things over and over, even though they have been refuted.

 

[snhs]

No, I was not talking about teenagers clapping. You said those that don’t understand why they are there would be “disruptive”.

That covers All those that are disruptive. It was point to point.

I am also talking about more than just an intellectual conversion of catechesis. Yes, most anyone’s presence in the EUcharist, whether they understand it or not, will be effected by being in the presence…regardless if the explanation or understanding happens or not. Nothing may come of it, but continuous company of the Eucharist will have an effect on the soul.

Again, you still took my words way too literally than trying to understand my concepts. It’s too hard to communicate. I’m done.

I’m sorry but you were, the problem here seems to have originated from you not understanding the basic principal of what I have been saying, the relevant quote is below. The point I made was that if we change the Mass schedule and change a Mass to a youth Mass this will inconvenience those who are already attending it and don’t like it/prefer a normal Mass. If these young people then feel the need to clap to a tune then it can, and probably will, be disruptive to others who are praying/reflecting on the sacrament they have received etc. I think in all liturgical practices it should firstly be a matter of following the guidelines of the Church on how the Mass should be conducted. After that I think individuals should take into account how their actions will affect others in the congregation rather than using the fact it has not been explicitly banned as a defence.

Correction it may have an effect on the soul and that effect will only be manifest when they are open to it. If they have no knowledge of what is happening and aren’t told about the sacrifice occurring on the Altar then they could just as well assume that feeling were coming from the music, the candles being alight or any one of hundreds of factors. Its all very well to base faith on feeling but to detach it from any intellectual and theological understanding is a grave error. It is also wrong to attempt to modernise the liturgy without knowledge of the Church’s rich Musical and Theological heritage.

“If it is going to disrupt the Mass for others, who are there of their own free will and for the right reasons, then I don’t think they should be. The fact is the vast majority of parishes which ‘add’ a youth Mass take up one of the pre-existing Masses and in doing so disrupt the worship of those who already attend and may either force them to change Mass time or put up with practices (clapping et al) which they young/old/whatever else find unconducive to prayerful worship.”

 

[benedictgal]

Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I have to say this again. I did not say that ALL youth masses were approved. I said the concept of a youth mass is approved and encouraged.

And again,as I have told this countless times before…Cardinal Arinze in no way told the gathering around the altar had to “cease and disist” . I know you like that expression, but that is absolutely incorrect with what happened. They were offerered an indult by Cardinal Arinze. LT decided to not take it. Stop saying that he did such things that he did not do.

And in fact, again, there are only three things that were corrected with the new GIRM. nothing was made mention of the music.

Again, everyone is twisting words again, and using the same old tired arguements. But I suppose that this is your specialty,…saying the same things over and over, even though they have been refuted.

Agapewolf, please read this, as it appeared in one of the 2004 editions of the news section of the Adoremus bulletin:

Life Teen’s Liturgical Reform
Life Teen, the Phoenix-based Catholic youth organization, announced in July that it will cease its idiosyncratic liturgical practices. Monsignor Dale Fushek, Life Teen’s founder and former Vicar General under Bishop Thomas O’Brien, sent a letter July 2, saying that he confirms “our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops”.

The letter asked that “all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model” make these changes. The teens will no longer surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer; they will cease saying, “The Mass never ends, it must be lived”, at the end of Mass; the rock-party atmosphere before Mass will be toned down to “make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration”; and they will “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair”.

“I am sure these issues will be hard on some parishes and teens”, Monsignor Fushek wrote. His letter said that Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmsted met in Rome with Cardinal Francis Arinze, of the Congregation for Divine Worship, about Life Teen.

He did, in fact, tell them “not to surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer”, “tone down” the rock-party atmosphere of the mass" and “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair.”

Msgr. Fushek’s response is very telling. If LifeTeen was supposed to have been in conformity with the GIRM (the English translation of it was received in 2002-03), why would it be such a hard issue for “some of the parishes and teens”?

Clearly, surrounding the altar during the Eucharistic prayer and making up one’s own final statement on the Mass violate the GIRM. If that weren’t the case, Cardinal Arinze wouldn’t have to meet with Bishop Olmstead to clarify the matter.

Furthermore, if things were satisfactory, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist raise the red flag regarding music at Youth Masses? These are serious issues, agapewolf.

 

[agapewolf]

Agapewolf, please read this, as it appeared in one of the 2004 editions of the news section of the Adoremus bulletin:

He did, in fact, tell them “not to surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer”, “tone down” the rock-party atmosphere of the mass" and “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair.”

Msgr. Fushek’s response is very telling. If LifeTeen was supposed to have been in conformity with the GIRM (the English translation of it was received in 2002-03), why would it be such a hard issue for “some of the parishes and teens”?

Clearly, surrounding the altar during the Eucharistic prayer and making up one’s own final statement on the Mass violate the GIRM. If that weren’t the case, Cardinal Arinze wouldn’t have to meet with Bishop Olmstead to clarify the matter.

Furthermore, if things were satisfactory, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist raise the red flag regarding music at Youth Masses? These are serious issues, agapewolf.

Your source is biased. The letter did not in any way say anything about “Rock party atmosphere”. (although I don’t think it should be there anyway)…it did not say that. The “adoremus” bulletin is not quoting correctly…they have added their own touch to this memo. This is adoremus’ take on what the letter said, and just like you do, tends to add strong language to make things seem as they are not.

Yes, the decision was made to stop gathering the teens around the altar. The were not however, told to “Cease and desist” as you keep saying. Read my past post about how it was decided.

 

[benedictgal]

Your source is biased. The letter did not in any way say anything about “Rock party atmosphere”. (although I don’t think it should be there anyway)…it did not say that. The “adoremus” bulletin is not quoting correctly…they have added their own touch to this memo.

Yes, the decision was made to stop gathering the teens around the altar. The were not however, told to “Cease and desist” as you keep saying. Read my past post about how it was decided.

First of all, Adoremus is fairly reliable. Second, the attitude regarding LifeTeen liturgies is eerily similar to the one that the NeoCatechumenal movement took when Pope Benedict XVI issued his cease and desist order regarding their particular liturgies.

The NeoCatechumenals leaders met with the Holy Father in December 2005. He told them that while their movement bore much fruit, their particular celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass had to cease. He even gave them a two-year phase out and had Cardinal Arinze write a letter to them reiterating what the Holy Father had said.

The NeoCatechumenal leaders responded that Pope John Paul II had allowed them to celebrate their particular form of Mass. A check by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments proved otherwise. The NeoCatechumenal leaders said that the document issued by the CDWDS was merely a suggestion. Again, the Prefect said no. This whole brouhaha played out in the online edition of www.chiesa.com .

According to the Holy Father’s directive, the phase out should have ended on December 2007. We are now in January, 2008. We shall see if the NeoCatechumenal movement will cease and desist.

I compare the NeoCatechumenal Way to LifeTeen because both groups seem to regard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as their groups’ personal property to celebrate as they see fit. That is not how the Church regards the Mass. The Mass is the Church’s chief treasure and her highest form of prayer. The young poster snhs has raised some very valid points, as have other teens who have contributed to this thread.

It appears to me that there is a strong hunger from these young people for something that is very real. If they want pop music, they can go to a Jessica Simpson concert or hear a Green Day CD. They seem to want something beyond the ordinary. They want to immerse themselves in the Divine Majesty of God. This need should be recognized.

You are very passionate about LifeTeen; however, that passion can also blind you to some very concrete realities. When a movement begins to introduce idiosyncracies and personal tastes into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is cobbling up something for itself, rather than receiving the liturgy as the Church means for it to be received. Idiosyncracy is not my word, it is Cardinal Arinze’s and he’s used it on many occasions. In fact, a good chunk of his speeches are in the very website you are so quick to criticize.

 

[agapewolf]

oh for goodness sake. I did not criticize the website. It is below, for a fact, the letter that was the instructions with the new GIRM. No where does it say anything about “Rock party”.

So, it is biased…its right there in black and white Adoremus added their own little interpretation.

I am not getting into this again. I am trying to merely go point for point and again, more and more things are brought in that have nothing to do with the individual points.

Again, you insult by calling me blind. I see clearly thank you very much,. I have asked you over and over to stop using such terms. It is insulting, and I will not continue discussions like this.

Here is the letter:

*I am writing to confirm our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops. In this spirit of obedience, we are asking all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model to make the following changes:

1. In accordance with the new GIRM, teens are no longer to enter the sanctuary for the Eucharistic prayer. Being in the sanctuary is to be reserved for the priest celebrant, concelebrants, and those performing a specific ministry.
2. The GIRM very specifically offers three options for the end of the Mass. We are to cease using the phrase “The Mass Never Ends, It Must Be Lived” and begin using one of the three prescribed endings found in the Missal.
3. After music practice or welcoming, please make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration.
4. As we have always taught, please make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo, or chair.
5. Please make sure that full implementation of the GIRM is done in accordance with your Diocese and accomplished with a spirit of joy.*

 

[benedictgal]

oh for goodness sake. I did not criticize the website. It is below, for a fact, the letter that was the instructions with the new GIRM. No where does it say anything about “Rock party”.

So, it is biased…its right there in black and white Adoremus added their own little interpretation.

I am not getting into this again. I am trying to merely go point for point and again, more and more things are brought in that have nothing to do with the individual points.

Again, you insult by calling me blind. I see clearly thank you very much,. I have asked you over and over to stop using such terms. It is insulting, and I will not continue discussions like this.

Here is the letter:

*I am writing to confirm our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops. In this spirit of obedience, we are asking all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model to make the following changes:

1. In accordance with the new GIRM, teens are no longer to enter the sanctuary for the Eucharistic prayer. Being in the sanctuary is to be reserved for the priest celebrant, concelebrants, and those performing a specific ministry.
2. The GIRM very specifically offers three options for the end of the Mass. We are to cease using the phrase “The Mass Never Ends, It Must Be Lived” and begin using one of the three prescribed endings found in the Missal.
3. After music practice or welcoming, please make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration.
4. As we have always taught, please make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo, or chair.
5. Please make sure that full implementation of the GIRM is done in accordance with your Diocese and accomplished with a spirit of joy.*

First of all, this letter was written by the LifeTeen founder to the group. I am most curious what precipitated his writing this directive. If everything was fine and dandy, as you keep asserting that it is, such a letter would not have been necessary.

Second, having read through the 1975 version of the GIRM, I did not find where it indicates that standing around the sanctuary during the Eucharistic prayer is an approved rubric for the laity to follow. In fact, the only time that both the 1975 GIRM and the 2000 (released in 2002 by the USCCB) make any mention of who can come to the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer centers around the deacon and concelebrants. Since the young people standing around the altar are neither deacons nor concelebrating priests, this rubric does not apply to them. Nor does the 1975 GIRM say that the priest has the authority to make changes to the texts of the Mass (as indicated in the second statement of this letter). In fact, the 1975 GIRM indicates that the deacon or priest can only choose from three statements:

“Go in the peace of Christ,” or: “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord,” or: “The Mass is ended, go in peace.”

Therefore, the concluding statement that was used in LifeTeen Masses was, and still is, illicit.

The current GIRM has changes such as requiring the faithful to now stand during the Orates Fratres and clarifies when the EMHCs should approach the altar to assist in the distribution of Holy Communion, as well as other very important clarifications.

Therefore, using the old GIRM as an excuse doesn’t hold much water since the first and second instances aren’t even covered in the Paul VI missal. LifeTeen was pretty much in violation of the old GIRM. Using the new GIRM as an excuse to now say that they were going to follow the norms and rubrics didn’t justify their initial violation of the 1975 version.

 

[Dauphin]

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.”

- Pope Benedict XVI

What the Pope warns us against is precisely what Lifeteen is: liturgical “entertainment”.

 

[benedictgal]

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.”

- Pope Benedict XVI

What the Pope warns us against is precisely what Lifeteen is: liturgical “entertainment”.

Even though, out of fairness, the OP didn’t refer to LifeTeen, per se, what you said is quite applicable to what the young person reported.