Fish or cut bait

[Realcatholicgk]

Yes, we did talk. I am to where I think it would be better to be Catholic than Lutheran, all things being equal. Of course they are not all equal, though since I am younger than you and a convert to Lutheranism I can switch more easily. 2009 is the year of primary sources - the Book of Concord, the corresponding Catholic writings like the Confutatio, and a lot of praying.

**Hi Spoilt,

Not to make light of your conversion. decision but three humorous insights came to mind.

“It really doesn’t matter what church you belong to, if you don’t go to church”

Don’t try to find a perfect church. If you succeed they probably wouldn’t accept you as a member!"

One of my personal favorite ones. "Is God doesn’t call the qualified. He qualifies the ones He calls. "

On a more serious note: One of my personal Heros said:

" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand." - St Augustine

“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” - St Augustine

Yoi and Jon are in my prayers.

God Bless**

 

[Reg21]

JonNC, not to derail, but here’s my question as a Lutheran who spent 4 years at a Catholic college in constant dialogue attempting to make Catholic doctrine compatible with my Lutheran instructed view of scripture: how did you reconcile the Bible’s clear teaching that justification is relational, (God sees Christ’s holiness when he looks at us,) with Catholicism’s view of justification as a process, that is, God views us as becoming more justified as our works increase?

I’ve had Catholics tell me repeatedly the difference is semantics, but the views are irreconcilable. Justification is the doctrine on which the church rises or falls.

The justification-as-process view waters down the demands of the Law, tarnishes the beauty of the Gospel, and throws away Christ’s assurances of salvation. On the other hand, true good works may only be done out of love and apprecation for Christ’s sacrifice as a result of the Spirit’s sanctifying process, which is impossible if one is looking to good works for justification at the same time. The justification as process view leads to delusion or despair about my the value of my works.

Now, my answer to Catholics is that if our differences are semantics, the RCC should admit error, renounce Trent, and lift Luther’s excommunication. To the Catholics who admit the views are irreconcilable, I’ll thank for correctly representing their doctrine and point them to Chemnitz for why they are wrong.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

how did you reconcile the Bible’s clear teaching that justification is relational, (God sees Christ’s holiness when he looks at us,) with Catholicism’s view of justification as a process, that is, God views us as becoming more justified as our works increase?

This is not accurate. Could you please quote the source document you are using to come to this paraphrasing?

Justification is not a process. Sanctification and salvation “He who overcomes shall be saved” is part of one process.

Furthermore, justification is not based on “works increasing”. Justification is accomplished by men actively and willfully following Christ, in addition to passively putting faith in Christ. Works may increase as sanctification and holiness increase.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC, not to derail, but here’s my question as a Lutheran who spent 4 years at a Catholic college in constant dialogue attempting to make Catholic doctrine compatible with my Lutheran instructed view of scripture: how did you reconcile the Bible’s clear teaching that justification is relational, (God sees Christ’s holiness when he looks at us,) with Catholicism’s view of justification as a process, that is, God views us as becoming more justified as our works increase?

I’ve had Catholics tell me repeatedly the difference is semantics, but the views are irreconcilable. Justification is the doctrine on which the church rises or falls.

The justification-as-process view waters down the demands of the Law, tarnishes the beauty of the Gospel, and throws away Christ’s assurances of salvation. On the other hand, true good works may only be done out of love and apprecation for Christ’s sacrifice as a result of the Spirit’s sanctifying process, which is impossible if one is looking to good works for justification at the same time. The justification as process view leads to delusion or despair about my the value of my works.

Now, my answer to Catholics is that if our differences are semantics, the RCC should admit error, renounce Trent, and lift Luther’s excommunication. To the Catholics who admit the views are irreconcilable, I’ll thank for correctly representing their doctrine and point them to Chemnitz for why they are wrong.

Hi Reg21, welcome to CAF.

In the same way the Joint Declaration does:

In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works

Now of course this does not totally reconcile our differences on justification, but for me it is a solid starting point. While Catholics say the justification is a process, do we not say that, once justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, that our sanctification is in some sense a process of growth in Grace? And do we not grow in grace through the means of grace, word and sacrament, and by, as the confessions say here, the necessity of good works and following Christ’s commands?

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, **this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins. **

And I would contend that not doing as Christ Himself commands is a sin of the first order (mortal if you will). I rest in the assurance of justification by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, but I also know that sanctification requires me to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. As Chemnitz says,

Where there is no true repentance, but the intent remains to continue in sins, there true faith cannot exist, and faith that does not work by love but remains without good fruits, is not true, but feigned and dead faith. - Martin Chemnitz

Jon

 

[manualman]

I’ll skip the derail although I’m DYING to jump in.

From the catholic point of view, there is a great image that may be of help to the OP.

Humanity originally went to the sea of life in a ship called the Eden. Being fools, we holed the hull, lost her and have been floating in the jetsam ever since. In His mercy and grace, God sent Christ who came to rescue us and provided us with an unsinkable rescue ship to get us to the far shore. He doesn’t force anybody aboard, nor keep them there once they board. He probably has alternative plans to rescue those who never had the opportunity to come aboard her (He’s that kind of guy), but we would be speculating as to what those plans are. God might give them the Grace to find enough flotsam to build a raft. But if you’re even close to accepting that Jesus really did intend for there to be ONE barque of Peter, it really shouldn’t seem to be that great an idea to stay aboard one of those rafts. (Unless of course that raft has a lot of huddled survivors aboard and you properly discern that God wants to to stay for a time to help them all come aboard.) I really don’t think Jesus meant for the sacraments to be nice, but dispensable avenues of Grace. He gave them to us because we NEED that real, physical, tangible aspect of the faith life to go along with the more ethereal part (doctrine, dogma, prayer life, scripture…). Come aboard and have what you need!

 

[Reg21]

Trent anathamizes the idea that Christ’s grace is imputed to us–that we are justified solely by Christ’s merits. That anathema applies to you if you believe it.

I don’t think it does anybody any good by pretending words don’t have meaning. They do; words like “anathema.”

I thought this was a fair take on the agreement from Cardinal Dulles:

leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9912/articles/dulles.html

I don’t see how a Lutheran who sees the importance of justification can compromise the doctrine for hopes in future theologians’ ability to make words not mean what they mean.

 

[JonNC]

I’ll skip the derail although I’m DYING to jump in.

From the catholic point of view, there is a great image that may be of help to the OP.

Humanity originally went to the sea of life in a ship called the Eden. Being fools, we holed the hull, lost her and have been floating in the jetsam ever since. In His mercy and grace, God sent Christ who came to rescue us and provided us with an unsinkable rescue ship to get us to the far shore. He doesn’t force anybody aboard, nor keep them there once they board. He probably has alternative plans to rescue those who never had the opportunity to come aboard her (He’s that kind of guy), but we would be speculating as to what those plans are. God might give them the Grace to find enough flotsam to build a raft. But if you’re even close to accepting that Jesus really did intend for there to be ONE barque of Peter, it really shouldn’t seem to be that great an idea to stay aboard one of those rafts. (Unless of course that raft has a lot of huddled survivors aboard and you properly discern that God wants to to stay for a time to help them all come aboard.) I really don’t think Jesus meant for the sacraments to be nice, but dispensable avenues of Grace. He gave them to us because we NEED that real, physical, tangible aspect of the faith life to go along with the more ethereal part (doctrine, dogma, prayer life, scripture…). Come aboard and have what you need!

Manualman,
Thanks so much for your contribution. Up until now, I have been of the belief that I can be of (tiny) service to unity by staying where I am. Staying with your seafaring analogy, all of our vessels are wounded and damaged by division, and I pray the HS will lash our rafts together again.

Jon

btw, I certainly don’t want you “dying” to jump in. Take a shot here, or PM me.
Jon

 

[Realcatholicgk]

JonNC, not to derail, but here’s my question as a Lutheran who spent 4 years at a Catholic college in constant dialogue attempting to make Catholic doctrine compatible with my Lutheran instructed view of scripture: how did you reconcile the Bible’s clear teaching that justification is relational, (God sees Christ’s holiness when he looks at us,) with Catholicism’s view of justification as a process, that is, God views us as becoming more justified as our works increase?
.

**Hi Reg,

Welcome, This is your first post? JonNC you should feel honored unless Reg21 is a “retread” that got banned under another name.

So, As I understand it, Reg, you are trying to reconcile the real teachings of Christ against the false teachings of Luther and are having problems? Go figure?

As Fr John Corapi says: “Look to the teachings of the Pope and the Magisterium for the truth.”

Justification isn’t the problem. Reg, your salvation is! Other can explain Justification until the cows come home *
That knowledge will not save your soul. Following Jesus real church is the answer as He personally stated many times in the christian scriptures 1,400 years before Luther was born!
Perhaps the main difference between real Protestantism and real Christians is expressed by the “five Solas”. “Sola” means “alone” in Latin.]

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus (“Christ alone”)
5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

You can’t make the real treachings conform to false teachings. That just isn’t possible. Luther even made sure to remove the books of the approved bible, without any authority, but his own, in order to have scriptures conform to his teachings. How precious is that?

God Bless***

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Trent anathamizes the idea that Christ’s grace is imputed to us–

Without our cooperation

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Without our cooperation

It makes a difference whether this co-operation​

• precedes,
• accompanies,
• or follows the bestowal of the grace of justification
  whereby the unrighteous man is made righteous. The unjustified man is hardly in a position to co-operate; not only is he not justified - he is at enmity with God. http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/2034.gif http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/2063.gif

 

[wina]

Manualman,
Thanks so much for your contribution. Up until now, I have been of the belief that I can be of (tiny) service to unity by staying where I am. Staying with your seafaring analogy, all of our vessels are wounded and damaged by division, and I pray the HS will lash our rafts together again.

Jon

I agree with you, you can stay where you are now and open your heart let The Holy Spirit guides you and you will find the truth.

will pray for you Jon

 

[JonNC]

I agree with you, you can stay where you are now and open your heart let The Holy Spirit guides you and you will find the truth.

will pray for you Jon

Thanks for this, wina. One of the hard things is, as someone (a Catholic) said to me in a PM, I’m aculturated Lutheran: Lutheran pastor dad, entire family Lutheran, daughter at a Lutheran college going into education. I’m trying very hard to keep my mind and heart open to the HS’s guidance. It is nice to know that someone who doesn’t even know me understands that.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Trent anathamizes the idea that Christ’s grace is imputed to us–that we are justified solely by Christ’s merits. That anathema applies to you if you believe it.

I don’t think it does anybody any good by pretending words don’t have meaning. They do; words like “anathema.”

I thought this was a fair take on the agreement from Cardinal Dulles:

leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9912/articles/dulles.html

I don’t see how a Lutheran who sees the importance of justification can compromise the doctrine for hopes in future theologians’ ability to make words not mean what they mean.

At first I thought this was off topic, but actually, Reg, it helps reinforce my belief, which ironically adds to my conflict:
From Avery Dulles

But notwithstanding all the theological reservations on both sides, the signing of the Declaration with the “blessing” of John Paul II can be a powerful symbolic event. It says clearly to a world that hovers on the brink of unbelief that the two churches that split Western Christendom on the issue of justification nearly five centuries ago are still united on truths of the highest import. They can confess together that we are sinful members of a sinful race, that God offers us the gift of justification, that this offer comes through Christ, our only Savior, that it is received in faith, that the Holy Spirit is conferred upon those who believe, and that, having been inwardly renewed, they are called and equipped to excel in deeds of love. In view of this shared heritage of faith, we are confident that our doctrinal formulations, currently expressed in different idioms, can in the end be reconciled. Our readiness to declare the nonapplicability of the sixteenth century condemnations on justification is based on this conviction.

Catholics and Lutherans in the midst of thinking about speaking ill of one another, should read this first. So powerful!

Jon

 

[wina]

Thanks for this, wina. One of the hard things is, as someone (a Catholic) said to me in a PM, I’m aculturated Lutheran: Lutheran pastor dad, entire family Lutheran, daughter at a Lutheran college going into education. I’m trying very hard to keep my mind and heart open to the HS’s guidance. It is nice to know that someone who doesn’t even know me understands that.

Jon

Hi Jon, please remember and keep it in your mind that you don’t need everyone or someone understand you what you need and know for sure that God understands what is in your heart and mind and believe that He will take care all.
God bless you always Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi there JonNC; I was moved by your sentiments, it has been a while since you and I have engaged on topics. Your insights are very educational,inspiring and informative.

I dont doubt one bit of your faith in Jesus Christ, this you have expressed on these forums. I would recommend continue Fishing, enjoy having you here at this water hole. Sometimes we can get a snag, so cut the bait, but never stop fishing, this we are called to do. Besides it is nice to fish along side with you here.

I believe your love for Jesus Christ will answer your questions. This is the stuff Martyrs and Saints are made of. Dieing for Jesus Christ at our baptisms was wonderful, excercising our baptismal faith in life brings us closer to God and his Love, it is here when we can say back to Our Father in heaven “I Love You”. If God is calling you back home, you will know. If God is using you for other works according to his will God will bless you. I have the utmost trust in the Holy Spirit for you, He is our helper and comforter.

I wish you happy fishing and may God bless you and keep you in his tender loving care.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I agree with you, you can stay where you are now and open your heart let The Holy Spirit guides you and you will find the truth.

will pray for you Jon

Hi wina,

**I agree with you! Jon can stay where he is now and open his heart letting the Holy Spirit guide him and he will find the truth.
Then He can convert to the Catholic church.

I will pray for all Protestants that the Holy Spirit works to guide them into the real chuch that Jesus established 2,000 years ago!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Thanks for this, wina. One of the hard things is, as someone (a Catholic) said to me in a PM, I’m aculturated Lutheran: Lutheran pastor dad, entire family Lutheran, daughter at a Lutheran college going into education. I’m trying very hard to keep my mind and heart open to the HS’s guidance. It is nice to know that someone who doesn’t even know me understands that.

Jon
**
Hi Jon,

Actually Jon, I think the Holy Spirit is already working on you. Otherwise you would not be having conflict. I think you have already discovered the truth and are fighting against yourself. All I can say is pray my brother. Prayer is the answer to every question. It may take time but through prayer you will discover the truth. You might try praying the Rosary. If not the entire Rosary at least one Hail Mary daily. She brings many people to her son.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.**

“Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the Person of Christ manifested in His mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” He did for His lowly servant and through her for all human beings. The second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.” - CCC; 2675

Jon you actually suprised me quoting Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, who died in December. For those that don’t know, He was considered by many as one of our great figures in the Catholic Church, in the United States. I guess you know that he was a convert to the Faith. His own journey to the church was remarkable: a scion of the great WASP Dulles dynasty, his father was John Foster Dulles, President Eisenhower’s Secretary of State, and his uncle was Allen Dulles, the Director of the CIA, during the 1950s.
Cardinal Dulles moved from the Presbyterian Church of his youth to agnosticism and then to a conversion to Catholicism–a very intellectual progression, as he always said, but one that clearly, and progressively, transformed him. He became a Jesuit, and he was a prolific writer, a popularizer with depth, one might say.
He became more conservative as he aged, his early work, “Models of the Church,” is a classic and is considered required reading for anyone interested in the past, present, and possible futures of the Catholic Church. Cardinal Dulles spoke of all the wonderful possibilities of a changing church over the years and into the time ahead. May our loving God have mercy on his soul. I ask this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen

God Bless

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon, please remember and keep it in your mind that you don’t need everyone or someone understand you what you need and know for sure that God understands what is in your heart and mind and believe that He will take care all.
God bless you always Jon

Yeah, you’re right. But it is still nice to know.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi there JonNC; I was moved by your sentiments, it has been a while since you and I have engaged on topics. Your insights are very educational,inspiring and informative.

I dont doubt one bit of your faith in Jesus Christ, this you have expressed on these forums. I would recommend continue Fishing, enjoy having you here at this water hole. Sometimes we can get a snag, so cut the bait, but never stop fishing, this we are called to do. Besides it is nice to fish along side with you here.

I believe your love for Jesus Christ will answer your questions. This is the stuff Martyrs and Saints are made of. Dieing for Jesus Christ at our baptisms was wonderful, excercising our baptismal faith in life brings us closer to God and his Love, it is here when we can say back to Our Father in heaven “I Love You”. If God is calling you back home, you will know. If God is using you for other works according to his will God will bless you. I have the utmost trust in the Holy Spirit for you, He is our helper and comforter.

I wish you happy fishing and may God bless you and keep you in his tender loving care.

Thanks so much for your kind words (the feelings are mutual), and supportive advice.

Jon

 

[manualman]

JonNC, not to derail, but here’s my question as a Lutheran who spent 4 years at a Catholic college in constant dialogue attempting to make Catholic doctrine compatible with my Lutheran instructed view of scripture: how did you reconcile the Bible’s clear teaching that justification is relational, (God sees Christ’s holiness when he looks at us,) with Catholicism’s view of justification as a process, that is, God views us as becoming more justified as our works increase?

I’ve had Catholics tell me repeatedly the difference is semantics, but the views are irreconcilable. Justification is the doctrine on which the church rises or falls.

The justification-as-process view waters down the demands of the Law, tarnishes the beauty of the Gospel, and throws away Christ’s assurances of salvation. On the other hand, true good works may only be done out of love and apprecation for Christ’s sacrifice as a result of the Spirit’s sanctifying process, which is impossible if one is looking to good works for justification at the same time. The justification as process view leads to delusion or despair about my the value of my works.

Now, my answer to Catholics is that if our differences are semantics, the RCC should admit error, renounce Trent, and lift Luther’s excommunication. To the Catholics who admit the views are irreconcilable, I’ll thank for correctly representing their doctrine and point them to Chemnitz for why they are wrong.

OK, since I’ve been invited to participate in the derail, I’ll have a go. Here’s my background. I’m a cradle catholic with lifelong protestant influences (though not necessarily Lutheran). I spent a week every summer at an evangelical summer camp, my folks were in a multdenominational bible study and I spent 4 years in college studying the bible with the Navigators (an evangelical university discipleship group).

Reg21’s view of justification is quite similar to that which I’ve seen in my experience. What was preached to me in those groups was essentially the following:

1. Humanity is irretrievably evil because of the fall.
2. Sin requires punishment to satisfy justice.
3. God is both merciful and just, so the only way for us to be saved was for God the Son to become human and to receive the punishment for all our sins (suffering and death).
4. Since that punishment is paid, God has made a legal manuever by which the righteousness of Christ is transferred to those who place their faith in Him.
5. That righteousness ‘covers’ the believer so that God does not see his sins, but only the righteousness of Christ.

They do a fine job of rooting around and pasting a lot of verses together to support this chain of progression, but in the long run you will find it chaffes you. It simply doesn’t line up with the God you come to know in prayer and life. In spite of all the verses, I have come to the belief that these are all distortions or oversimplifications. The more I studied, the more I found that the catholic teaching lined up with the God I’d come to know in prayer. Once I realized that Scripture taken as a whole along with the Early Fathers of the Church ALSO supported this view I was finally at ease dumping the innovations of Luther and Calvin. Here is what I’ve come to believe are the more correct versions of each.

1. Humanity is good, being created in the image and likeness of God, but has a fatal flaw because of the fall. Good, but terribly fallen. NOT utterly depraved. (I’ll return to this in my next post!)
2. Sin has fatal consequences. Not because God is out there waiting to squash you for them, but because that is just what sin DOES. It’s much like the law of gravity. God isn’t angered and compelled to throw you to the ground if you step off a cliff, that’s just the outcome of gravity. Same with sin. It’s wages are death because by its very nature it damages a human’s ability to give and receive love. Justice is still real, and God is surely just. It just happens to be more subtle than the typical protestant handout tract implies.
3. God is just, merciful and LOVING. Christ became incarnate out of love for us. Without him, we were doomed to be done in by our tragic flaws. He came to call us to repentance and to Grace. He offered to those who would trust in Him the Grace to be healed of the tragic flaws of sin. But being still fatally flawed, humanity (i.e. US) reacted to his presence predictably - we killed Him (Not just Jews, or Romans or Pharisees, ALL of us bear the responsibility). But by rising from the dead and reaffirming his love and mercy for us, He established new hope for us all by that proof of his love and continued offer of mercy and grace. Yes, He DID suffer the consequences of our sin and pay the price for us, but again it is more profound than was ever explained to me in protestantdom.
   4/5. Here is where (IMO) the protestant doctrine I was taught is just plain wrong. Christ didn’t come to ‘cover’ our sins (and Scripture never says He did). He came to REMAKE us, to heal the fatal flaw of the fall and restore us to God’s original plan for humanity. When we enter into heaven we will not BE sinners covered by Grace, we will be utterly sanctified humanity, sinners no more. By Grace we will no longer have even the inclination towards sin that plagues us still today. This demonstrably doesn’t happen in an instant. There is usually little difference in character immediately before and after a sinner utters the protestant ‘sinners prayer.’ Sanctification takes a lifetime of small moments of Grace, small decisions to trust Christ, small surrenders of our own will/desires, with a few big ones oftentimes thrown in for encouragement!