Fisher More college banned from celebrating EF

[steymard]

I believe the forum rules prohibit publishing private documents, or at least documents involving third parties that have phone numbers, etc…who have not consented to have them published. I dunno, such a sad state of affairs.

One aspect of those rules - the phone numbers - has not been violated, because the numbers listed are publicly available on the Fort Worth diocese’s website. I don’t know about the rest.

 

[steymard]

You can accept that Christ gives us the Eucharist as the source and summit of life, and you can attend Mass to worship him and receive him.

Of course, but neither of those things are in question in this matter.

 

[clem456]

Of course, but neither of those things are in question in this matter.

Well, yes, that’s exactly the point.

 

[Brooklyn]

Well, at least he won’t get away with shenanigans now that there is a record.

In the past, it was common for bishops to get away with this kind of thing. Not anymore.

Why are you so quick to denigrate the bishop without knowing the full facts? He is a bishop and worthy of respect. Why do you automatically assume he is anti-TLM? Couldn’t you at least allow the possibility that there might be more to this story than we know, and that maybe there is more going on at the college than we know? After all, as I’ve posted earlier in this thread, all sedevacantist groups are “traditional” at least in their practices, and who knows what may be happening here.

Let things play out before you start condemning a bishop of the Catholic Church.

 

[RPRPsych]

Why are you so quick to denigrate the bishop without knowing the full facts? He is a bishop and worthy of respect. Why do you automatically assume he is anti-TLM? Couldn’t you at least allow the possibility that there might be more to this story than we know, and that maybe there is more going on at the college than we know? After all, as I’ve posted earlier in this thread, all sedevacantist groups are “traditional” at least in their practices, and who knows what may be happening here.

Let things play out before you start condemning a bishop of the Catholic Church.

Very well said.

 

[steymard]

Well, yes, that’s exactly the point.

Then I don’t understand your point. The desire for the EF is a legitimate aspiration and should be accommodated by priests at the request of the faithful. When that request is denied, of course we still have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the OF, but people in this situation cannot help but be frustrated since their desire is not fulfilled. My overall point was that the ongoing restriction of the EF, in general, unfortunately helps to perpetuate “ghettoization” and stigmas and extremisms associated with some of its adherents and thus does not achieve the kind of mutual enrichment desired by Pope Benedict XVI. I can’t speak to any particular situation, but I think that, on the whole, its restriction can be counterproductive.

 

[Brooklyn]

Whoever leaked this letter and splashed it all over the Internet is also culpable.

Rorate Caeli knows and they aren’t talking. One more reason why I don’t trust them.

 

[ProVobis]

Whoever leaked this letter and splashed it all over the Internet is also culpable.

Fair point. But sooner or later someone would notice the lack of having the EF celebrated where it was before. Or any Mass, for that matter.

 

[ProVobis]

Just a little reminder about using the instruction for Summorum Pontificum, Universae Ecclesiae, which the good Bishop already knows.

Fisher More College can be seen to have violated this, especially if the Bishop made his decision after meeting with the college’s administration.

Fair point. But that would imply some stereotyping was done in order to facilitate such a command. As someone pointed out, there are probably some on the campus, in fact maybe even the vast majority, who are in total obedience to the Pope and the Church. Why are they punished, or being put in the middle of any disputes?

 

[steymard]

Fair point. But that would imply some stereotyping was done in order to facilitate such a command. As someone pointed out, there are probably some on the campus, in fact maybe even the vast majority, who are in total obedience to the Pope and the Church. Why are they punished?

Indeed. What percentage of “the Faithful” per needs to support schismatic groups in order to incur Universae Ecclesiae 19? If it was a rather low percentage, and UE 19 was the reason for this action, then I can do nothing but feel for the vast majority of faithful who attended this chapel.

 

[steymard]

Moving ahead, Universae Ecclesiae provides the following recourse for Fisher More:

1. § 1. The Pontifical Commission exercises this power, beyond the faculties previously granted by Pope John Paul II and confirmed by Pope Benedict XVI (cf. Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, artt. 11-12), also by means of the power to decide upon recourses legitimately sent to it, as hierarchical Superior, against any possible singular administrative provision of an Ordinary which appears to be contrary to the Motu Proprio.

§ 2. The decrees by which the Pontifical Commission decides recourses may be challenged ad normam iuris before the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura.

If Ecclesia Dei upholds the bishop’s decision, then it can go all the way to the Apostolic Signatura. Cardinal Burke, who is notably friendly to the EF, is its prefect.

In addition, I very much doubt that it is an issue of what is daily being preached from the pulpit or who is offering Mass. An FSSP priest is in full-time residence there.

 

[Brooklyn]

I add that the frustration of many faithful who love the EF is because of this:

1. EF is restricted because of radicalized supporters

You sort of hit on it here. There is nothing wrong with the EF. It is beautiful and I personally love it. The problem is that so many who are associated with it are very radical and tend to reject the hierarchy of the Church which ends up in disobedience and sometimes separation from the Church, as we have all too often seen.

As I posted early in this thread, if I was a bishop and I saw people who were associating with groups such as Remnant Newspaper and Catholic Family News, I would be on heightened alert.

 

[Brooklyn]

Moving ahead, Universae Ecclesiae provides the following recourse for Fisher More:

If Ecclesia Dei upholds the bishop’s decision, then it can go all the way to the Apostolic Signatura. Cardinal Burke, who is notably friendly to the EF, is its prefect.

It’s not a matter of being friendly to the EF or not “being friendly.” It is a matter of obedience to the Magesterium. The bishop here is not stopping the TLM anywhere else. In fact, he gave alternatives to the people at this college to attend elsewhere. The problem is obviously somehow with the college.

 

[zab]

It’s not a matter of being friendly to the EF or not “being friendly.” It is a matter of obedience to the Magesterium. The bishop here is not stopping the TLM anywhere else. In fact, he gave alternatives to the people at this college to attend elsewhere. The problem is obviously somehow with the college.

Exactly

 

[clem456]

Then I don’t understand your point. The desire for the EF is a legitimate aspiration and should be accommodated by priests at the request of the faithful. When that request is denied, of course we still have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the OF, but people in this situation cannot help but be frustrated since their desire is not fulfilled. My overall point was that the ongoing restriction of the EF, in general, unfortunately helps to perpetuate “ghettoization” and stigmas and extremisms associated with some of its adherents and thus does not achieve the kind of mutual enrichment desired by Pope Benedict XVI. I can’t speak to any particular situation, but I think that, on the whole, its restriction can be counterproductive.

The attitude that an institution cannot have an authentically Catholic mission embracing tradition unless they can celebrate the EF illustrates the issue quite well, and probably is indicative of the reason they have been denied it. They are probably mis-representing what tradition is. It seems self-evident, but only the bishop knows for sure.

When did obedience cease to be an integral part of Catholic tradition? Is that mindset a modernist addition to Catholic thinking?
Can one have any mission or vocation without obedience?

 

[Sirach2]

It’s not a matter of being friendly to the EF or not “being friendly.” It is a matter of obedience to the Magesterium. The bishop here is not stopping the TLM anywhere else. In fact, he gave alternatives to the people at this college to attend elsewhere. The problem is obviously somehow with the college.

Yes, the alternative suggested by the bishop was St. Mary of the Assumption which is only two miles from the College. There is nothing to quibble about having to drive excessive miles to attend the EF.

 

[steymard]

The attitude that an institution cannot have an authentically Catholic mission embracing tradition unless they can celebrate the EF illustrates the issue quite well, and probably is indicative of the reason they have been denied it. They are probably mis-representing what tradition is. It seems self-evident, but only the bishop knows for sure.

When did obedience cease to be an integral part of Catholic tradition? Is that mindset a modernist addition to Catholic thinking?
Can one have any mission or vocation without obedience?

I think it is perfectly legitimate to say that the EF is an integral part of their Catholic mission. They are not saying that the OF cannot be part of an authentically Catholic mission.

I don’t know where in the world obedience (or the lack therof) comes into play in Fisher More’s situation, so I don’t know why you bring it up.

 

[TimothyH]

It occurs to me that the bishop himself is probably quite unconcerned with what we all think about what he did.

And if the bishop doesn’t care what I think, then I shall think about it no more.

-Tim-

 

[RedCaves]

Obedience, obedience, obedience.

It appears that’s all that matters for all of you.

Reminds me of Brian Moore’s 1972 novel Catholics, a scene in which a Vatican visitor ties to convince the only existing religious order that does the TLM to give it up. He uses this analogy: “…if I was told disbelief in God of out obedience, I would have to obey. Obedience triumphs everything!”

Granted, I think the analogy is flawed but for anyone to say that the only problem is obedience clearly has no idea what he/she is talking about.

It’s more than just obedience.

It’s about understanding the true nature of Catholic Tradition and everything that goes along with it in Her 2,000 year-old *consistent *history.

 

[steymard]

Yes, the alternative suggested by the bishop was St. Mary of the Assumption which is only two miles from the College. There is nothing to quibble about having to drive excessive miles to attend the EF.

The trouble is with the assumption that a Sunday mass will stand in for what has been removed, because the EF is no longer offered anywhere close the other 6 days of the week.

Also (this is not addressed to you in particular) the students are not being “denied” the sacraments. There is an OF church a short walk away from campus.