Five Biblical Arguments for Praying to Saints and Angels

[amyj4]

I believe he is referring to The Wedding in Cana when Jesus turned the water into wine at the request of Mary. They ran out of wine and Our Lady asked him to do it, he did not refuse her.

Here is an interesting snippet from an article I’ve read:

"John is careful to note that Jesus’ first miracle (at Cana) is done in response to Mary’s intercession ( John 2:1–11). Mary, the icon of the bride and the counterpoint to Jesus the groom, is exactly the importunate supplicant Jesus tells us he is looking for in the Parable of the Unjust Judge (Luke 18:1–8). She doesn’t take “no” for an answer, but first taps Jesus on the shoulder and says, “They have no wine” and, after a seeming rebuff, goes with perfect trust to the servants and tells them, “Do whatever he tells you.”

There is a strong tendency in Evangelical circles to read this story as yet another example of Jesus “rebuking” Mary. But the longer I contemplated it, the more problematic that way of seeing it became. For instance, if Mary is being “rebuked,” the question is, “Why?” For her “faithlessness?” That makes no sense. She obviously expects Jesus to be able to do something about the wine. But such an expectation is clearly an act of faith in him as Messiah since there’s no reason, humanly speaking, to think a poor carpenter would be able to do anything. So she’s obviously expecting something supernatural here.
At this point, many an Evangelical replies, “Yes, she had faith, of a sort. But it was a worldly faith. She wanted Jesus to perform wonders, but didn’t understand the depth of what his mission would ultimately mean. That’s why Jesus rebuked her with the words, ‘O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come’” (John 2:4).
But this makes no sense either. If Jesus is displeased with her allegedly worldly faith and her supposed hankering after mere publicity stunts, why does he grant her request? Everybody else who comes to him with worldly demands and requests for publicity stunts is invariably refused. Whether it’s Herod Antipas (Luke 23:8–9), or the man who wanted Jesus to adjudicate an inheritance dispute with his brother (Luke 12:13–21), or a mob who wanted to crown him king ( John 6:15), or Pharisees seeking a cool special effect from heaven (Matt. 16:1–4), or his own disciples wanting a dazzling display of divine artillery against the Samaritans (Luke 9:51–56), all such crude demands for worldly power and selfish stunts are flatly refused."

I am also coming to the realisation that we all should lean heavily on the VERY capable arms of the Angels, Saints and OUR LADY! They are much holier and closer to God than most likely any of us will ever be. Who better to have backing us?

God himself made Guardian angels for each and everyone of us.
‘Angel of God my guardian dear, to whom Gods love commits me here. Ever this day be at my side to Light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen’

Of course God wants us to pray for intercession. Just as we ask our friends to pray for us and we pray for them in our own prayers. I know my own ‘prayer’ list is it lengthy and ever growing haha.

God bless.

Steve

Well said, Steve. You brought out several points that make sense. This episode has always struck me as something needing deep thought. At first Jesus and Mary appear to be “not on the same page” by his reply. But without any further words, she merely tells the servants to “do what he says”. Not only is there complete understanding and agreement between the two, but this is accomplished as if each read the others mind!

Then we come up against the notion that Jesus appears to be reprimanding his mother. And in public. Is that possible? Can God disobey his own third commandment? And even humiliate Mary in the process? No. Not possible.

I believe these two points bring out a “weakness” in the New Testament, although we know that it had a different objective and which was met in spite of this so-called “weakness”: We don’t know the expression on the speaker’s face nor how he delivers his message. In a novel, for example, the author would describe his expression - was he scowling? stern? aloof? Was his delivery gruff? soft? in a monotone? One of these probably comes to mind when reading the passages. But what if he was smiling lovingly at her while pronouncing those words? It would make sense of the following verses. There could be a secret they shared, which is not important for us to know. Mary seems to have come a long way from those days when “she pondered in her heart” the things she did not comprehend at first. Jesus must have taught her a lot during those years he had turned into an adult but had not yet started his mission.

But there is a third puzzle. He said it was “not yet his hour”, meaning not yet time to manifest his divinity with a miracle, yet he performed one and his disciples were there to witness it. Was he lying? Of course not. God does not lie. Was he joking? I don’t think so. Did God change his mind about when the “hour” would be? God does not change his mind because he knows everything, past, present and future. The Holy Trinity knew this would happen at the particular moment in time it happened.

So, what then? I don’t know, but I have a theory that might work: The Triune God “assigned” the beginning of Jesus’ mission to Mary, specifically to her words of “do whatever he tells you” and what she meant by them. So, before those words, it was not yet “his time” When she pronounced those words, he then performed the miracle. This does not have to mean that Mary knew she would be instrumental in starting his mission. She just wanted to help the newlyweds. That’s the way she is, and we know that for a fact.

I may be out on a limb here, but it makes a fascinating “wrap up”. What do you think?

amyj4

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Sorry but He never told anyone to pray to a human being. Moses,Abraham,David or any other of those who walked before Him. He specifically gave instructions on how to pray and only to God. The reason being is that he wants us to be sincere in our prayers and pray from our hearts and minds. Not some scripted words that were written by someone else

I never said anything about him telling someone to pray to a human being.

Yes he gave instructions on how to pray to God, but no, not “only to God”. He did not say “only”

 

[BarryI]

I think this pretty much settles the question. If the Virgin Mary weren’t there, we can imagine that Jesus would not have performed the miracle.

And your point about Mary being there is ??? Can you elaborate on that and what it has to do with " praying " to humans??

 

[BarryI]

I never said anything about him telling someone to pray to a human being.

Yes he gave instructions on how to pray to God, but no, not “only to God”. He did not say “only”

Well then am I to consider Moses, Abraham , David or any other prophet before Jesus not human brings??? also Jesus was speaking to pray ONLY to God. Did you not get it when He tells us in His first sentence " Out Father, Who. art in heaven,Hallowed be your name .

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Well then am I to consider Moses, Abraham , David or any other prophet before Jesus not human brings??? also Jesus was speaking to pray ONLY to God. Did you not get it when He tells us in His first sentence " Out Father, Who. art in heaven,Hallowed be your name .

1. No, they are are humans including Our Lady and the Saints.
2. No no, he did not say “only”, but yes he taught us the Our Father and I get that which is why I say it

 

[Paul_Edwards]

The Our Father is prayed in Catholic Churches at every Sunday mass, so we get that

 

[dmar198]

You are using a Psalm to "automatically " pray to other people in heaven? Who are these people?

I can’t name every one of them, because there’s lots, and we don’t know everyone who has made it into heaven. I usually say first, “All you angels and saints, pray for me” – because that gets all of them. But there are lots of saints who we know are in heaven. Revelation 18:20 says the Apostles are in heaven. Matthew 8:11 says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in heaven. 2 Kings 2:11 says Elijah is in heaven. Luke 23:43 says the thief who converted on the Cross is in heaven. When the Church canonizes anybody, we know that person is in heaven. Therefore there are quite a few.

According to Jesus in John 3 :13, "No One, has gone up to Heaven,except the one who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man. Did Jesus tell us a lie?

No, it’s not a lie, but the verses that say people are in heaven are also not lies. John 3:13 says nobody has ascended to heaven except Jesus. Catholics believe that because you can’t ascend if you don’t have the power to rise. But you can be carried – Luke 16:22 says, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.” We can’t go up ourselves, but we can be carried up, and how Catholics understand that. Do you think that’s reasonable? If not, how do you understand verses like Revelation 18:20, 2 Kings 2:11, Matthew 8:11, Luke 23:43, Revelation 4:4, Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 7:4, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 12:1, Revelation 19:1, and all the other passages that talk about people in heaven?

also Jesus was speaking to pray ONLY to God. Did you not get it when He tells us in His first sentence " Out Father, Who. art in heaven,Hallowed be your name .

If you only prayed what that verse says, you couldn’t pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit either, because it doesn’t say “Oh Son, Who art in heaven,” or “Oh Holy Spirit, Who art in heaven,” it only says “Our Father, Who art in heaven.” Don’t go saying the Father is the only person you can pray to if you don’t believe it.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Some people need to learn the difference between ascended and assumed

 

[RedFox0456]

I feel like one large fact is being ignored here. The canonized saints are known to be in Heaven because they have interceded for us before God. Verified miracles have taken place because God has heard the pleas of the saints on our behalf. With regard to this, you can’t claim a misunderstanding. You would need to claim the Church to be a liar and that these miracles never happened. You would need to deny these miraculous events that were not done by the power of the saints, but by the Glory of God.

 

[Irish_Steve]

Well sumed up Dmar!

It amazes me how people can take this ‘logical and reasoned’ approach and yet there are so obviously contradictions present. You made a prime example by stating that we weren’t told to pray the ‘holy spirit who art in heaven.’ Yet we and our Christians brothers and sisters still do pray to all 3.
I feel that unfortunately our fellow Christians have adopted such a literal and obtuse mindset that it hinders the truth. It’s like anything the Catholic Church says or teaches that isn’t directly written in the bible HAS to be wrong. The bible is ONE book. Inconceivably valuable but at the same time it is one compiled book. We can’t solely rely on such a small text to answer every single question/ query that we as people have and will ever come up with! There are so many unanswered or unasked questions in and not in the bible.
I feel like our Protestant brothers and sisters feel that they simply have to disagree with anything the Catholic Church teaches that isn’t directly extracted from the bible regardless of how much sense it may seem to make. There’s this stigma that we couldn’t possible be correct because we are associated with a 'long corrupt Church."

That is a very interesting take on it Amy, I hadn’t really thought of it like that before and you’re right, it can be very tough for us to read words and completely understand what the author was trying to convey. Something as simple as a smile could change the meaning of any phrase.

Steve

 

[amyj4]

Well sumed up Dmar!

It amazes me how people can take this ‘logical and reasoned’ approach and yet there are so obviously contradictions present. You made a prime example by stating that we weren’t told to pray the ‘holy spirit who art in heaven.’ Yet we and our Christians brothers and sisters still do pray to all 3.
I feel that unfortunately our fellow Christians have adopted such a literal and obtuse mindset that it hinders the truth. It’s like anything the Catholic Church says or teaches that isn’t directly written in the bible HAS to be wrong. The bible is ONE book. Inconceivably valuable but at the same time it is one compiled book. We can’t solely rely on such a small text to answer every single question/ query that we as people have and will ever come up with! There are so many unanswered or unasked questions in and not in the bible.
I feel like our Protestant brothers and sisters feel that they simply have to disagree with anything the Catholic Church teaches that isn’t directly extracted from the bible regardless of how much sense it may seem to make. There’s this stigma that we couldn’t possible be correct because we are associated with a 'long corrupt Church."

That is a very interesting take on it Amy, I hadn’t really thought of it like that before and you’re right, it can be very tough for us to read words and completely understand what the author was trying to convey. Something as simple as a smile could change the meaning of any phrase.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. BTW, my name is Arturo Jocson Munarriz. During the time of my parents, I wrote my name as Arturo Munarriz y Jocson (amyj) I didn’t realize that it would come out “amy”. I attached “4” on a whim. By this you may also guess that I belong to a previous generation. Yup. I’m 86 - and that I have some Spanish ancestry. Yup again, but I am Filipino, and the “Jocson” was really “Hoc son” - Chinese. Weird, no?

I guess it would be best if signed off with my name from now on. Took me a second look before I realized you meant me in your post. Thanks again.

Arturo

 

[BarryI]

Thanks, Steve. BTW, my name is Arturo Jocson Munarriz. During the time of my parents, I wrote my name as Arturo Munarriz y Jocson (amyj) I didn’t realize that it would come out “amy”. I attached “4” on a whim. By this you may also guess that I belong to a previous generation. Yup. I’m 86 - and that I have some Spanish ancestry. Yup again, but I am Filipino, and the “Jocson” was really “Hoc son” - Chinese. Weird, no?

I guess it would be best if signed off with my name from now on. Took me a second look before I realized you meant me in your post. Thanks again.

Arturo

You have to remember the Catholic Church hierarchy is made up of humans who still will make mistakes and people will follow those mistakes because they are putting them in authoritative positions. I however choose to listen and follow Jesus by what He himself said and taught that was recorded in the Bible by those who knew him firsthand and more closely than anyone else. Just as the Pharisees and scribes misled the Jews in those days, the same thing can and does happen today because of Sstans influence on the world, and yes, sorry to say it, the Catholic Church too. To think that he foes not is to be very naive. Jesus brought the truth with him and it was recorded in the Bible. Also one other thing,Jesus did not come to the world on His own, but that His Fàther dent Him and was returning to His Father. However he ascended is moot, He was a spirit being from the beginning and was sent to earth as a human to live amongst us and after He carried out God’s will He Himself was resurrected and back to his natural state as a spirit being able to appear to the disciples agsin in human form for testimony and after forty days God called Him to return to Him.