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M
mchale
Guest
I kind of hope this one doesn’t go through. It, I think, would do little to increase Catholic devotion to Mary and would simply cause confusion amongst those who already misunderstand the Catholic position on saints and Mary.
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Bill
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Bill
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NDfan
Guest
Actually Catholics are rejecting this doctrine big time. It will be interesting if it goes through to see if any fallout occurs.I kind of hope this one doesn’t go through. It, I think, would do little to increase Catholic devotion to Mary and would simply cause confusion amongst those who already misunderstand the Catholic position on saints and Mary.
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Bill
M
mchale
Guest
Well, I think in the proper context, Mary can be seen as our spiritual mother; its just that people frequently don’t see things in the proper context.Actually Catholics are rejecting this doctrine big time. It will be interesting if it goes through to see if any fallout occurs.
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Bill
H
Hesychios
Guest
I think it will be interesting to watch the procedures these people follow in an attempt to push it through.
I wil be observing this as closely as I can. Thanks for the heads up.
I wil be observing this as closely as I can. Thanks for the heads up.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
This kind of thing is interesting:
- Five cardinals have invited every cardinal and bishop in the world to join them in petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to solemnly proclaim the Mother of Jesus as the "Spiritual Mother of humanity” as an ecumenical service of clarification to other religious traditions and to proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.
**- whether it’s a good idea, is another matter. **
**That apart, I’m surprised they didn’t join forces with Miravalle & Co, or that he hasn’t put his head together with them; because “Spiritual Mother of humanity” does not seem to mean anything different from “Advocate” (which is the third part of the title that the Miravalle crowd want to have defined) **
J
justasking4
Guest
If this is true though would you not want it to be proclaimed even if there are supposedly some misunderstandings?I kind of hope this one doesn’t go through. It, I think, would do little to increase Catholic devotion to Mary and would simply cause confusion amongst those who already misunderstand the Catholic position on saints and Mary.
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Bill
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Where are these “Catholics who are rejecting this doctrine big time”?Actually Catholics are rejecting this doctrine big time. It will be interesting if it goes through to see if any fallout occurs.
NDfan, if it is not too much trouble I would like you to hear this audio from this guy I have listened to before. His name is Scott Hahn.
Here is the link;
catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3
This guy uses a lot of scripture and makes a lot of sense.
Let me know what you think.
The Grey Pilgrim
H
Hesychios
Guest
What’s the point?If this is true though would you not want it to be proclaimed even if there are supposedly some misunderstandings?
V
vocatio
Guest
Nothing new about this. Mary is a spiritual mother.for all of us. This is not new nor has it ever been. That’s in part why we refer to her as the New Eve. Read
home.inreach.com/bstanley/eve.htm
Note that Ave spelled backwards is Eve… I stole that.
home.inreach.com/bstanley/eve.htm
Note that Ave spelled backwards is Eve… I stole that.
A
Alexius
Guest
I think we need a long (I mean very long) breather from Marian dogmas (and all dogmas in general).
M
MilwaukeePapist
Guest
Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see this Dogma proclaimed and I believe Mary is our Spiritual Mother. At the same time, I think right now it would not be a good idea. I think there would be too much confusion and misinterpretation of such a proclamation among our Protestant Brother and Sisters. Look at the CDF document was it that came out 3 days after Summorum Pontificum in which Benedict reiterated some of the things in Dominus Iesus but went in depth into what Christian communities meant. I knew a lot of Protestants who took the document at face value via the way the media presented it. If that wasn’t bad enough, proposing something on Mary and her role, which is already divisive issue between Protestants and Catholics I think would only make things a little worse. I think the hope would be to wait some years as Ecumenism continues and than try to propose the idea. Ultimately though, God is in charge I’ll let him run the Church.
J
justasking4
Guest
Should this not be proclaimed even if people may misunderstand it?What’s the point?
N
NDfan
Guest
Pilgrim I’m very familiar with Scott Hahn and his writings. He might make sense but that doesn’t mean he is correct.Where are these “Catholics who are rejecting this doctrine big time”?
NDfan, if it is not too much trouble I would like you to hear this audio from this guy I have listened to before. His name is Scott Hahn.
Here is the link;
catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3
This guy uses a lot of scripture and makes a lot of sense.
Let me know what you think.
The Grey Pilgrim
With regard to Catholics rejecting the doctrine, I had read that the Cardinals were testing the waters so to speak in the local parishes. Although they have I believe something like 7 million petitions, the rate of approval if you will is like 3-4 to 1 against. For every 1 person who is for it there are 3-4 against it. The reasons vary including inappropriate title, confusing title etc. If I find the article I will send it to you.
PEACE
N
NDfan
Guest
Vocatio if Eve was the bride of Adam then you are implying Mary is the bride of Jesus as the new Adam and Eve. This is impossible because we know the bride of Jesus is HIS church. Just as Adam brought sin into the world through all his descendants with Eve, the new Adam (Jesus) will cleanse his bride (the church) from sin by HIS blood and take us back to the garden of eden to live with GOD dwelling among us. That’s heaven!!Nothing new about this. Mary is a spiritual mother.for all of us. This is not new nor has it ever been. That’s in part why we refer to her as the New Eve. Read
home.inreach.com/bstanley/eve.htm
Note that Ave spelled backwards is Eve… I stole that.
PEACE
G
Genesis315
Guest
A is a truth revealed by God is a truth revealed by God–proclaiming something as a dogma doesn’t make it a truth revealed by God, but confirms it as such. The charism of infallibility given to the Church as a whole and the Roman Pontiff particularly is not for giving new truths, but for confirming those which have been handed down, both explicitly and implicitly.
We can’t say “enough with the Marian dogmas” or “enough with dogmas for a while” because these truths are always truths and it is the solemn duty of the Pope and the bishops in union with him to confirm the truth whenever it is necessary to do so. If there is a debate over whether a particular point is actually true or not, as some say there is in this case, then a papal definition confirming or condemning the point would be a good idea to settle the matter.
The truths being discussed in the OP can be found amongst the ECFs, especially those of the East (Ephrem, Germanus, Sophronius, John Damascene, Cyril of Alexandria, etc.) but also many doctors of the West (Alphonsus Liguori, Bernard, Robert Bellarmine, etc.–in fact, St. Alphonsus’ book “Glories of Mary” is good because he sites a great multitude of Fathers to make his points.)
They have also been taught consistently by Popes and especially by the Second Vatican Council (Lumen Gentium) and Pope John Paul II (Redemptoris Mater).
We can’t say “enough with the Marian dogmas” or “enough with dogmas for a while” because these truths are always truths and it is the solemn duty of the Pope and the bishops in union with him to confirm the truth whenever it is necessary to do so. If there is a debate over whether a particular point is actually true or not, as some say there is in this case, then a papal definition confirming or condemning the point would be a good idea to settle the matter.
The truths being discussed in the OP can be found amongst the ECFs, especially those of the East (Ephrem, Germanus, Sophronius, John Damascene, Cyril of Alexandria, etc.) but also many doctors of the West (Alphonsus Liguori, Bernard, Robert Bellarmine, etc.–in fact, St. Alphonsus’ book “Glories of Mary” is good because he sites a great multitude of Fathers to make his points.)
They have also been taught consistently by Popes and especially by the Second Vatican Council (Lumen Gentium) and Pope John Paul II (Redemptoris Mater).
E
East_and_West
Guest
I really don’t see what the point of defining this dogma would be.
B
bengal_fan
Guest
wouldn’t calling her the “mother of ALL humanity” lead to universalism? wouldn’t it be more appropriate to call her the mother of all followers of Jesus (as she wasn’t given as mother to everyone standing at the cross but john alone)?
i also agree that the bride of Christ is the church, not mary. but i do believe she plays a specific and unique role in salvation history and eschatology.
i also agree that the bride of Christ is the church, not mary. but i do believe she plays a specific and unique role in salvation history and eschatology.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Is this knowledge that saves? What purpose does this serve?Should this not be proclaimed even if people may misunderstand it?
Frankly, true or not (a separate issue, although very important), dogma always carries a terribly weighty price with it.
Quite literally, if such knowledge is not necessary for the salvation of souls it can only be used to exclude people from heaven. Once a dogma is proclaimed, anyone whom (sincerely enough), cannot bend their own minds around it and are unable to believe or cannot in their own hearts accept it…is anathema.
In other words they are damned by a the church which ostensibly loves them.
Jesus did say:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter." MT 23:13 NAB
And separately, you seem to be acknowledging that it is likely to be misunderstood, at least by some few. This may further damage the credibility of the church with it’s own people. Even 1% of your own people falling away because of a misunderstanding could mean 11 million Catholics leaving your church. But I am also assuming that many will really understand, yet not be able to accept the dogma as intended!
You might say that “well, they are disobedient”. What then? Is submission of the intellect to the opinions of a select few the answer to getting around a cloudy, unnecessary dogma that can damn them? People who…right now…believe in the Jesus of the Gospels, believe in the Creed and sacraments of the church, and raise their children in the church will be put at risk to satisfy the excessive zeal of few.
The Holy See is supposed to TEACH faith and morals, not confuse them. It’s job is to SAVE souls, not to damn them.
More dogmas…2000 years after the whips, the rods, the scourges and the nails in the tree…are of no use to us now.
*Michael
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E
East_and_West
Guest
Some in the Oriental Communion feel same about all those “extra councils” that you and I believe in including Chalecedon.More dogmas…2000 years after the whips, the rods, the scourges and the nails in the tree…are of no use to us now.
Michael
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