Flags and Idolatry

[GKC]

There is no flag in the Meeting I attend…the meeting room is for the worship of God…but then we don’t have crosses, statues, icons or pictures either…

I do not salute the flag…I do stand out of respect for those around me if the Pledge is recited…I do not place my hand over my heart.

Patriotism has it’s place…but it has no place in a place of worship IMO…we are members of a different…better Kingdom…one day according to scripture all national lines will be erased as the Kingdom of God will fill the Earth…that Day will only occur if we begin living within that Kingdom now…displays of patriotism or nationalism has no place in worship.

Wouldn’t think of trying to get you to do otherwise. Wouldn’t think of emulating you.

GKC

 

[Eutychus123]

There is no flag in the Meeting I attend…the meeting room is for the worship of God…but then we don’t have crosses, statues, icons or pictures either…

I do not salute the flag…I do stand out of respect for those around me if the Pledge is recited…I do not place my hand over my heart.

Patriotism has it’s place…but it has no place in a place of worship IMO…we are members of a different…better Kingdom…one day according to scripture all national lines will be erased as the Kingdom of God will fill the Earth…that Day will only occur if we begin living within that Kingdom now…displays of patriotism or nationalism has no place in worship.

Thank you for your comments. You have said it so much better than I could have.

 

[GKC]

From a nobody with no connection to the military aside admiring it: thank you from me as well!

Thank you. For myself, and for all within hearing distance who served.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Call the idolatry police! My Church has statues down both sides and, of course, Joseph and Mary on either side of the altar in the front. **In the very back of the Church **are (gasp!) the papal flag and the American flag on either side of the main doors. Unobtrusive. As long as I don’t genuflect to the papal flag, I guess I’m okay.

Jim Dandy

Jim,
Your humor aside, the back of the nave, or in the transept, is exactly where I believe the flag should be, not in the area of the altar and pulpit.

If you absolutely feel the need and desire to genuflect to the Papal Flag, your secret is safe with me.

Jon

 

[exnihilo]

You are right that the American Flag is not an integral part of the Mass. However, the United States is dedicated to our Mother Mary to watch over our nation through intercession to our Lord Jesus Christ. To keep this dedication in the forefront of our prayers, it is most appropriate to have the American Flag to the left of the Sanctuary (right of the celebrant), with the Church Flag to the right of the Sanctuary.

Is your justification an official reason? Why is the US flag a representation of that dedication? Is the dedication to the people and or the state? Since the US is in theory a federation what happens if it divides? Is it common in other nations to have the state flag in the church?

If it is idolatrous to have the flag in a protestant church, it is possibly similarly idolatrous to have one in a Catholic one. If the logic is “they must be worshipping it” is applied in one place, such a logic can be seen, similarly applied in another place, to that or other items. If all honor is seen as “reverencing” it is also possible to see all honor as worship. All illogically, of course.

I’m more interested in the Protestant defense of this practice. I think I’m starting to understand the Catholic viewpoint about veneration. I can understand how it could be justified by Catholics.

There is no flag in the Meeting I attend…the meeting room is for the worship of God…but then we don’t have crosses, statues, icons or pictures either…

That to me seems entirely consistent. I can at least respect that approach for following an assumption to its logical conclusion.

 

[JonNC]

Not here in the deep south.

Many Churches here in the south, especially evangelical Churches, will have no visible cross anywere.

-Tim-

Tim,
When you say “many”, that isn’t my experience here in NC. Every Baptist Church I’ve ever seen has a cross, most on the outside. There are a huge number of UMC churches in the south, too, and they all seem to, as well.
How many 'evangelical churches" have you visited? I’m just trying to get a handle on the “many” part of your statement.

Jon

 

[Contarini]

the meaning of the american flag to me means that I have the choice to worship where ever on how ever I wish. And I believe (especially during this time) that we should see the flag and remember those who are giving us the FREEDOM to worship where we want!

The freedom that matters to Christians is the freedom we have in Jesus, the same freedom that our spiritual ancestors the ancient martyrs possessed.

Sure, in a civil, temporal sense it’s nice that America has religious freedom. But to acknowledge the American state in a liturgical context as the source of Christian freedom is blatant idolatry.

Also, it’s not clear to me that anything the U.S. military has ever done is actually responsible for the religious freedom that Americans enjoy today. Perhaps if you think that there’s more religious freedom today in the U.S. than in Canada or Australia.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

The freedom that matters to Christians is the freedom we have in Jesus, the same freedom that our spiritual ancestors the ancient martyrs possessed.

Sure, in a civil, temporal sense it’s nice that America has religious freedom. But to acknowledge the American state in a liturgical context as the source of Christian freedom is blatant idolatry.

Also, it’s not clear to me that anything the U.S. military has ever done is actually responsible for the religious freedom that Americans enjoy today. Perhaps if you think that there’s more religious freedom today in the U.S. than in Canada or Australia.

Edwin

I think, rather, that it is appropriate to recognize that the American state, and the guarantors of its continued existence, both individuals and institutions, provide an opportunity to exercise, as you will, that Christian freedom. And the same is true in any other polity where that is, and remains, possible.

Who do you see acknowledging the American state, in a liturgical sense? Other, of course, than praying for the President and governor, as I assume you do.

GKC

 

[ltwin]

Not here in the deep south.

Many Churches here in the south, especially evangelical Churches, will have no visible cross anywere.

-Tim-

I’m from South Carolina. Most of the evangelical churches (Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, etc) will have crosses on the top of their buildings, on the sides of their buildings, a one at the front of the sanctuary. It could be big or small. And not every church will have a flag in the sanctuary. Mine doesn’t.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

We have the Vatican flag only in our church. As Catholics, that is who we have allegiance to, not to the political nations of the world.

 

[GKC]

We have the Vatican flag only in our church. As Catholics, that is who we have allegiance to, not to the political nations of the world.

Stated in that fashion, you might arouse some concerns among non-Catholics.

GKC

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Jim,
Your humor aside, the back of the nave, or in the transept, is exactly where I believe the flag should be, not in the area of the altar and pulpit.

Jon

I agree. It might be appropriate to bring the flag up to (or near) the Sanctuary on Independence Day or Memorial Day, but to have it there in perpetuity? Just doesn’t seem very catholic to me.

 

[twopekinguys]

We have the Vatican flag only in our church. As Catholics, that is who we have allegiance to, not to the political nations of the world.

You realize that the Papal flag does represent a nation right?

The Vatican is a City/State, independent of Italy. They are sovereign, with diplomats in many nations, including the UN.

 

[hn160]

We have flags in our sanctuary but if I had my way they would be removed because the church is the house God. Our church has the so called Christian Flag in the front which is nothing more than the Methodist Sunday School Flag.

 

[exnihilo]

Another aspect of my original post that has not been commented on was the behavior of people when the Star Spangled Banner was played. As I mentioned this was in the prelude to the service.

Since many people seem to accept having the flag in worship I’ll make my case against it. The honor shown to the US flag was greater than that which should be shown God. The people felt free to talk while sacred hymns (just the tune) were being played before worship. But once the National Anthem was played they felt compelled to be silent. They also felt obliged to stand.

I believe this shows the people tend to have an improper reverence. That being the case it is the obligation of the church to teach and encourage them to have proper reverence through whatever means necessary. I am reminded of our instruction to not eat meat for idols if that would be a stumbling block for others. That being so I think not playing the National Anthem and not having the flag in the sanctuary is for the best.

I think, rather, that it is appropriate to recognize that the American state, and the guarantors of its continued existence, both individuals and institutions, provide an opportunity to exercise, as you will, that Christian freedom. And the same is true in any other polity where that is, and remains, possible.

I cant object to your statement. I can however question if having a US flag perpetually in a prominent place in the sanctuary is a proper way to recognize it. I wonder if the early church put signs of the Roman imperium in their worship space once the Roman Empire stopped the persecution?

 

[GKC]

Another aspect of my original post that has not been commented on was the behavior of people when the Star Spangled Banner was played. As I mentioned this was in the prelude to the service.

Since many people seem to accept having the flag in worship I’ll make my case against it. The honor shown to the US flag was greater than that which should be shown God. The people felt free to talk while sacred hymns (just the tune) were being played before worship. But once the National Anthem was played they felt compelled to be silent. They also felt obliged to stand.

I believe this shows the people tend to have an improper reverence. That being the case it is the obligation of the church to teach and encourage them to have proper reverence through whatever means necessary. I am reminded of our instruction to not eat meat for idols if that would be a stumbling block for others. That being so I think not playing the National Anthem and not having the flag in the sanctuary is for the best.

I cant object to your statement. I can however question if having a US flag perpetually in a prominent place in the sanctuary is a proper way to recognize it. I wonder if the early church put signs of the Roman imperium in their worship space once the Roman Empire stopped the persecution?

As to the last, not that I know of.

I cannot answer for those who follow the secular conventions of how to act when the national anthem is played, anywhere, versus those who fail to act properly with respect to the music of a hymn, in a church, save to point out again that neither act is worshipping. If there is a problem, in lies in the understanding of the individuals, not in the presence of a flag

If the flag is in your sanctuary, and it disturbs you to such a degree, perhaps approaching the proper authorities in your church, explaining your points and requesting that it be removed, would work. Or perhaps suggesting an emphasis on explaining proper conduct, at proper times, with respect to varying subjects or circumstances, might help. The secular world offers a number of conventions as to appropriate behavior when the national anthem is played and when a flag is also present. Something like that with respect to a hymn might be in order, to education the congregation…

GKC

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim,
Your humor aside, the back of the nave, or in the transept, is exactly where I believe the flag should be, not in the area of the altar and pulpit.

If you absolutely feel the need and desire to genuflect to the Papal Flag, your secret is safe with me.

Jon

:clapping::tiphat:

 

[jediliz]

little known FOURTH VERSE of the Star Spangled banner:

! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation.
Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the Heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust;”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave

We have two flags in my parish…the US Flag and the Vatican flag. Neither distracts from the Mass and when they strip the altar area on Holy Thursday. the flags are usually taken down with the rest of the altar items. The flags are not near the altar where the Consecration takes place, but against the wall, closer to the chair where the Priest that presides over the Mass, sits.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

We have the Vatican flag only in our church. As Catholics, that is who we have allegiance to, not to the political nations of the world.

Well technically the Vatican is an independent nation, following the Lateran Treaties the Pope signed with Benito Mussolini in 1929, and that are still in effect. I know what you meant though.

I don’t really agree with you. You can have an allegiance to your Church and to your nation. They are not mutually exclusive.

For God, Homeland, and Family. That’s my motto. The Church has never condemned patriotism.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Another aspect of my original post that has not been commented on was the behavior of people when the Star Spangled Banner was played. As I mentioned this was in the prelude to the service.

Since many people seem to accept having the flag in worship I’ll make my case against it. The honor shown to the US flag was greater than that which should be shown God. The people felt free to talk while sacred hymns (just the tune) were being played before worship. But once the National Anthem was played they felt compelled to be silent. They also felt obliged to stand.

I believe this shows the people tend to have an improper reverence. That being the case it is the obligation of the church to teach and encourage them to have proper reverence through whatever means necessary. I am reminded of our instruction to not eat meat for idols if that would be a stumbling block for others. That being so I think not playing the National Anthem and not having the flag in the sanctuary is for the best.

I cant object to your statement. I can however question if having a US flag perpetually in a prominent place in the sanctuary is a proper way to recognize it. I wonder if the early church put signs of the Roman imperium in their worship space once the Roman Empire stopped the persecution?

I can understand your objection. I do also agree that it is unacceptable that they showed reverence for their nation (good), but not for God (unacceptable).

As Paul said: everything must be done in a fitting and orderly way.