Flaw in asking saints for intercession?

[PazzoGrande]

There’s no doubt that intercession of saints works. But is there a potential flaw in asking them for help?

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God. But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?

Padre Pio is a great example of someone close to God while living and could ask for miracles on his own. John Paul II also reportedly obtained miracles in his lifetime (although of course even he sought help from Padre Pio for a miracle at one time in his life; but we could argue that it was earlier in his life – later in his life he was holy enough to get them on his own).

When Saint Bernadette Soubirous was in her convent, a woman with a sick child sought out her help because she knew that this was a girl from the Lourdes apparitions. Couldn’t we argue though that it would have been better if the mother got holy enough herself so she could have gotten the miracle on her own? If perfection and holiness should be the goal for everyone anyway, isn’t doing that the more proper thing to do?

As such, is it flawed to have to ask someone else for help, rather than becoming holy enough yourself so you could get the favour yourself?

In the past, I never had any trouble asking saints for help, and I did get the help that I wanted, very often amazing me. But I have this doubt in my mind right now for some reason and it’s a bit of a stumbling block for me at the moment. I feel that it’s the wrong idea, but it is an idea that has its logic to it. Any help would be great.

 

[DavidFilmer]

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God. But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?

Is there any reason why we cannot (or should not) do both? I have never asked anyone to pray for my intention without first praying for it (to God) myself. Why should I ask anyone (either in heaven or on earth) to pray to God for an intention for which I have not even prayed to God?

 

[Seira]

Both St. Padre Pio & Bl. JPII prayed to saints for intercessions as well. Most of your saints prayed to saints for intercession. You pray to Mary & Joseph for intercession don’t you? Why pray to them when you could just pray to God?

 

[PazzoGrande]

Is there any reason why we cannot (or should not) do both? I have never asked anyone to pray for my intention without first praying for it (to God) myself. Why should I ask anyone (either in heaven or on earth) to pray to God for an intention for which I have not even prayed to God?

Perfect answer That’s just what I needed!

 

[JRKH]

There’s no doubt that intercession of saints works. But is there a potential flaw in asking them for help?

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God. But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?

Padre Pio is a great example of someone close to God while living and could ask for miracles on his own. John Paul II also reportedly obtained miracles in his lifetime (although of course even he sought help from Padre Pio for a miracle at one time in his life; but we could argue that it was earlier in his life – later in his life he was holy enough to get them on his own).

When Saint Bernadette Soubirous was in her convent, a woman with a sick child sought out her help because she knew that this was a girl from the Lourdes apparitions. Couldn’t we argue though that it would have been better if the mother got holy enough herself so she could have gotten the miracle on her own? If perfection and holiness should be the goal for everyone anyway, isn’t doing that the more proper thing to do?

As such, is it flawed to have to ask someone else for help, rather than becoming holy enough yourself so you could get the favour yourself?

In the past, I never had any trouble asking saints for help, and I did get the help that I wanted, very often amazing me. But I have this doubt in my mind right now for some reason and it’s a bit of a stumbling block for me at the moment. I feel that it’s the wrong idea, but it is an idea that has its logic to it. Any help would be great.

You ask a very good question. I believe that this troubles you because God is calling you to a closer relationship with Himself.
As David rightly pointed out, there is no need to consider this as one or the other, but to see it as both.

Perhaps an example will help.
A fellow gets a job moving product around by hand. Some items he can handle easily, others are heavier, more bulky and generally difficult. He sees the other fellas working and determines to do as well. Of course it takes time for him to build up his strength. the foreman, and one of the older workers sees how diligently he works and each tries to help in whatever way is appropriate. It takes a few months but soon enough the new guy is moving product as well as everyone else.

The above example speaks to physical strength and development as well as mental determination and commitment. Our Spiritual strength is really no different.
When we begin our journey we are small and weak. God and the saints, by example as well as by intercession, try to help us along - but we must strive to build up our own strength. This is a gradual process and we never really know if we ever reach our full potential…We just keep striving…

So think if the Saints as like “co-workers” (in the vineyard) always willing to lend a hand - but also always beckoning us on to greater sanctity.

Peace
James

 

[LegoGE1947]

You ask a very good question. I believe that this troubles you because God is calling you to a closer relationship with Himself.
As David rightly pointed out, there is no need to consider this as one or the other, but to see it as both.

Perhaps an example will help.
A fellow gets a job moving product around by hand. Some items he can handle easily, others are heavier, more bulky and generally difficult. He sees the other fellas working and determines to do as well. Of course it takes time for him to build up his strength. the foreman, and one of the older workers sees how diligently he works and each tries to help in whatever way is appropriate. It takes a few months but soon enough the new guy is moving product as well as everyone else.

The above example speaks to physical strength and development as well as mental determination and commitment. Our Spiritual strength is really no different.
When we begin our journey we are small and weak. God and the saints, by example as well as by intercession, try to help us along - but we must strive to build up our own strength. This is a gradual process and we never really know if we ever reach our full potential…We just keep striving…

So think if the Saints as like “co-workers” (in the vineyard) always willing to lend a hand - but also always beckoning us on to greater sanctity.

Peace
James

Could someone explain something about the closing prayer of the Rosary the line "Hail Holy Queen…Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope? I thought Jesus was our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. How can Mary be these things?. I’m a relatively new Catholic so I’m trying to learn and understand. Thank you

 

[PazzoGrande]

You ask a very good question. I believe that this troubles you because God is calling you to a closer relationship with Himself.
As David rightly pointed out, there is no need to consider this as one or the other, but to see it as both.

Perhaps an example will help.
A fellow gets a job moving product around by hand. Some items he can handle easily, others are heavier, more bulky and generally difficult. He sees the other fellas working and determines to do as well. Of course it takes time for him to build up his strength. the foreman, and one of the older workers sees how diligently he works and each tries to help in whatever way is appropriate. It takes a few months but soon enough the new guy is moving product as well as everyone else.

The above example speaks to physical strength and development as well as mental determination and commitment. Our Spiritual strength is really no different.
When we begin our journey we are small and weak. God and the saints, by example as well as by intercession, try to help us along - but we must strive to build up our own strength. This is a gradual process and we never really know if we ever reach our full potential…We just keep striving…

So think if the Saints as like “co-workers” (in the vineyard) always willing to lend a hand - but also always beckoning us on to greater sanctity.

Peace
James

You know, I think you’re right about that. I have been lacking in that for quite some time now. Before, I wasn’t afraid to approach God. Then I had a few truly horrific years that made me turn into a horrible person and they made me afraid because I felt tremendously unworthy. To sustain myself, I kept to hagiographies and reading about Marian Apparitions and I guess I was afraid to really work on my relationship with Christ.

You’re right: Jesus is telling me it’s time to make the next step. I believe this hiatus was meant as part of my spiritual journey and growth, and now I’m getting a divine shot in the arm.

Thanks guys. See this is why we need a religious body instead of just being freelance Christians – despite the downsides to it, there are benefits from having a community to help you walk through this stuff.

 

[JRKH]

Could someone explain something about the closing prayer of the Rosary the line "Hail Holy Queen…Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope? I thought Jesus was our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. How can Mary be these things?. I’m a relatively new Catholic so I’m trying to learn and understand. Thank you

Well this is completely off topic but here goes…

I had the same problem with this line - but it has been convincingly explained to me that the problem is a poor translation from the Latin. The translation sounds lovely but tends to convey a wrong understanding if one is not thoroughly familiar with Catholic understanding of Marion devotion.

A more accurate Translation (in my mind) would go something like.
“Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, life, sweetness and hope.”
It is Jesus who is our mercy, life sweetness and hope…and Mary is His mother.

The Hail Holy Queen is not my favorite prayer…

Peace
James

 

[jschutzm]

There’s no doubt that intercession of saints works. But is there a potential flaw in asking them for help?

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God.

Yes and NO. Yes…but that alone is not WHY we ask them… We don’t ask them MERELY because they are in heaven. We ask them because while here on Earth, we are sinners… therfore our thoughts and desires are often times muted or clouded by worldly concerns. We may ask for things which are NOT in acccordance with God’s will for us. Or let’s be honest… we sometimes ask for things which are downright selfish or sinful. RIGHT?

So IN ADDITION TO asking God, we also have the ability to run our needs by those who have gone before us into Heaven and know better the will of God. (they are not demi-gods or all knowing, but see things more clearly)

But aside from THAT… there is another totally separate reason to ask for intercession or involve others…
When we ask for intercession or help, we MAGNIFY the glory given to God. Recall that the bible asks us to pray unceasingly for each other, even for our enemies. And that the bible ALSO says that wherever 2 or more are gathered in God’s name…he is there amongst us.

So the 2nd reason, and perhaps more important reason to ask for intercession is that not only does God command us to do it…but it brings together more believers then if we all prayed solely to God, alone.
Praying alone to God doesn’t bring together the community, the body of Christ, doesn’t unify and build cooperation in his Church. Doesn’t give us an opportunity to help each other.

You COULD say that, Praying solely and only to God, ROBS others of an opportunity to help, which is another commandment of God. - to help others.
One could say, that in a sense… never seeking intercession is, in a way, selfish.

But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?
…

SURE, that would be ideal, in a way, but NOT because praying to God directly is soo much superior to asking for intercession, but because it is our GOAL to be closer to God. So becoming closer to God is ALWAYS better then NOT.
So in reality, this point has nothing to do with should we seek intercession, because it is a Christians duty to be closer to God.

The word “Christian” itself, essentially means this. It means “Christ-like” or “little Christ”

But we should NEVER deprive another souls (either here on Earth or in Heaven) the opportunity to do God’s work and intercede on our behalf. Again… to never pray for intercession is to be as equally arrogant as to think we don’t need God.

Recall the parable of the Pharisee who walks to the front of the Temple and thanks God that he is not like those SINNERS sitting in the back of the Temple. – We don’t want to seek Holiness so that we are better then others and don’t need their help. That smacks of arrogance.

Instead, be like the humble sinner at the back of the Temple who seeks every help they can get to stop sinning and be closer to God.
As such, is it flawed to have to ask someone else for help, rather than becoming holy enough yourself so you could get the favour yourself?

In the past, I never had any trouble asking saints for help, and I did get the help that I wanted, very often amazing me. But I have this doubt in my mind right now for some reason and it’s a bit of a stumbling block for me at the moment. I feel that it’s the wrong idea, but it is an idea that has its logic to it. Any help would be great.

We are also human… that is we have a physical side to us. The other reason to seek the intercession of the Saints is that we feel a connection or kinship to them. That we learn about how THEY overcame the obstacles in their lives. We identify with them, respect them, and in doing so… try to emulate or be more like them.
In other words… we kinda befriend them.
Sometimes it is easier for us to relate and identify with a Saint who has lived here on Earth and this helps us in our journey to be more holy. Kinda like a guide who shows you the path.

 

[jschutzm]

Could someone explain something about the closing prayer of the Rosary the line "Hail Holy Queen…Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope? I thought Jesus was our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. How can Mary be these things?. I’m a relatively new Catholic so I’m trying to learn and understand. Thank you

In the Catholicism the answers are often times “Both” or an “And” - not an “either” or an “or”

Secondly, in most things in life… the same words can have different connotations or be used in a different way.

Mary can, in a way, be those things to us, but in a lesser degree and in a different way then Christ is.

We use the word “our” to denote a close personal bond.

Our Life - We should model after her. She is an earthly example of how we should ALL strive to be. Our lives should be devoted to Christ like her’s was. She is the model for the entire Church. If our lives are devoted to the Church… then in a sense, she is our life because she directs us to her son… Jesus Christ.
Christ is also our life, as Mary points to him, so ultimately HE is our life and our focus.
Like looking through a lense. Mary is the lense which focuses our gaze upon Christ. Christ is our ultimate focus and goal.

Our Sweetness - pure like a child, sweet as in loving and compassionate. She is our spiritual mother. So in other words… she is our own personal sweet mother. This in no way detracts from Christ’s role

Our Hope - shouldn’t it be our own personal hope to be as close to Christ as Mary was (while on Earth) and is (in Heaven)? So I don’t see the issue with this. It should be our hope that we are more like Mary, and less like our sinful selves. Christ is our Ultimate hope… as in our Savior. We HOPE to be with him in Heaven. We HOPE to be saved from our sinful ways and from separation from God. So Christ is our hope in a totally different way. Mary our model… Christ our savior

 

[EricFilmer]

There’s no doubt that intercession of saints works. But is there a potential flaw in asking them for help?

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God. But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?

I echo my brother’s (name removed by moderator)ut from Post #2.

In addition to that, I think that if we want to grow in holiness to become saintly, we need the prayerful help of others (including saints in heaven and people with us on earth) in our journeys to such a goal. In others words, the saints help us to become saints ourselves.

Padre Pio is a great example of someone close to God while living and could ask for miracles on his own…

Padre Pio (now St. Pio) is one of my heroes. What you said is true, but also consider the fact that he was a Franciscan friar, and as such undoubtedly prayed to St. Francis on a regular basis. We could well wonder whether or not St. Pio would have become the great mystic and saint we know him to be without the prayers, guidance and inspiration of St. Francis. In a like manner, Benedictine saints prayed to St. Benedict, Dominican saints prayed to St. Dominic, Jesuit saints prayed to St. Ignatius of Loyola, etc.

St. John Vianney, the patron saint of priests, did not belong to a religious order, but he had a strong devotion to St. Philomena, and even wrote a novena prayer to her. Therefore, one of the greatest saints and mystics in the Church made novenas to St. Philomena, and often encouraged others to do the same.

And finally we should keep in mind that regardless of what we Catholics do in terms of our personal prayer lives, we collectively ask for the intercession of the saints at Mass. For example…

Eucharistic Prayer 1
"In communion with those whose memory we venerate,
especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,
Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,
and blessed Joseph, her spouse,
and your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,
Peter and Paul, Andrew,
James, John,
Thomas, (etc.)…

…we ask that through their merits and prayers,
in all things we may be defended
by your protecting help." (emphasis added)

Even though it is the priest who is reciting this prayer, he does so as the representative of the whole congregation (notice the “we ask” phrase above). At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the congregation affirms its participation in what was recited by the priest with “Amen.”

Other Eucharistic Prayers express the same idea in an abbreviated form, such as this part from Eucharistic Prayer 3:

“…and with all the Saints,
on whose constant intercession in your presence
we rely for unfailing help.” (emphasis added)

So my point here is that any Catholic who actively participates in Mass will inevitably be asking for the help of the saints.

Having said all this, I appreciate your comments about the importance of striving for saintliness. I think it is good to remind ourselves that the saints are not only our helpers, but also our role models. St. Ignatius of Loyola’s own path to sainthood began when he read a book about the saints of the Church and thought, “What if I were to do what they did?”

 

[Mintaka]

The “Hail Holy Queen” is a very poetic prayer. It troubles people because the modern world avoids poetry, doesn’t train kids to read or hear it, and is uncomfortable with it (except in sappy love songs on the radio).

Calling a great lady by all sorts of high titles and endearments was pretty normal for poets when this poem was written. If what people said about Mary is freaking you out, you should see what they said about J. Random Nobility or the latest pretty girl they met. Don’t ever read Welsh poetry, for example, or your head will exploooooode.

But yes, anyone who brings us life is our life. Jesus is Life itself; but Mary brought us Life in her body; so she is our life. Mary brought the hope of all Creation to us in her body, so she is our hope. And since Mary is the ultimate example of a Christian who lives totally in Christ, and since she is already in Heaven in the body, she is literally a living example of our eternal life to come and our hope of eternal life. Moreover, Mary is still helping us with her intercessions and teaching us to “do whatever He tells you,” so she is right now our path to life in Christ and hope of life eternal. Furthermore, if we listen to God like Mary, obey Him like Mary, and love Him like Mary, we too will become life and hope to others.

I notice nobody ever complains about “dulcedo,” sweetness, but that’s an attribute of God also. And anybody who follows Christ will become like Christ, with many of His attributes. That really is part of being Christian, after all.

It’s a very deep prayer, if you spend a lot of time on it.

 

[TimothyH]

Could someone explain something about the closing prayer of the Rosary the line "Hail Holy Queen…Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope? I thought Jesus was our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. How can Mary be these things?. I’m a relatively new Catholic so I’m trying to learn and understand. Thank you

Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace and the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

The treasury of grace which was won by Jesus Christ on the Cross was entrusted by Christ to his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. Mary distributes this grace to us according to her will, which is always conformed with her Son’s will that all be saved. All grace we recieve in the confessional, all grace from reception of the Eucharist, from prayer and from good works that we do, all come to us from Christ through his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. We look to Mary to intercede with Christ on our behalf, to obtain the grace which is necessary for our salvation, and to distribute that grace to us.

Mary is a powerful protector. The devil flees when the Royal name of Mary is involked. The angels in heaven fear to look upon he face of God, but Mary stands in God’s presence interceeding on behalf of mankind. That is the role of the Queen in the Old Testament, to interceed with the King on behalf of the King’s subjects. The Kings of the Old Testament appointed their mother’s to the position of Queen. Jesus is the King of kings, and his mother is Queen of Heaven and Earth.

She is our life, sweetness and hope because she made Jesus present in Palestine 2000 years ago and she continues to make the grace of Jesus present for us now, today, wherever we are.

-Tim-

 

[LegoGE1947]

Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace and the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

The treasury of grace which was won by Jesus Christ on the Cross was entrusted by Christ to his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. Mary distributes this grace to us according to her will, which is always conformed with her Son’s will that all be saved. All grace we recieve in the confessional, all grace from reception of the Eucharist, from prayer and from good works that we do, all come to us from Christ through his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. We look to Mary to intercede with Christ on our behalf, to obtain the grace which is necessary for our salvation, and to distribute that grace to us.

Mary is a powerful protector. The devil flees when the Royal name of Mary is involked. The angels in heaven fear to look upon he face of God, but Mary stands in God’s presence interceeding on behalf of mankind. That is the role of the Queen in the Old Testament, to interceed with the King on behalf of the King’s subjects. The Kings of the Old Testament appointed their mother’s to the position of Queen. Jesus is the King of kings, and his mother is Queen of Heaven and Earth.

She is our life, sweetness and hope because she made Jesus present in Palestine 2000 years ago and she continues to make the grace of Jesus present for us now, today, wherever we are.

-Tim-

Thanks for the explanations of the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer. As a former protestant we didn’t pay a whole lot of mind to Mary except of course at Christmas time where she appears in manger scenes and she and Joseph run off to Egypt to protect the infant Jesus from Herod and his madness!

 

[snarflemike]

To be close to God is also to be close to his beloved children, our brothers and sisters in heaven (not to mention our mother in heaven). It’s not just me-n-God, it’s a huge family, all seeking (those in heaven perfectly, those on earth imperfectly) to love God, but also to love their neighbor.

The saints in heaven delight in praying for us, and God delights that we seek their prayers and that they respond.

 

[LegoGE1947]

To be close to God is also to be close to his beloved children, our brothers and sisters in heaven (not to mention our mother in heaven). It’s not just me-n-God, it’s a huge family, all seeking (those in heaven perfectly, those on earth imperfectly) to love God, but also to love their neighbor.

The saints in heaven delight in praying for us, and God delights that we seek their prayers and that they respond.

I’m having a problem wrapping my head around the difference between “liking” my neighbor and “loving” my neighbor! How do you love someone you don’t necessarily like?

 

[snarflemike]

I’m having a problem wrapping my head around the difference between “liking” my neighbor and “loving” my neighbor! How do you love someone you don’t necessarily like?

You desire and seek what is truly best for them, not what is best for you through them. Use things and love people, not the other way around.

 

[LegoGE1947]

You desire and seek what is truly best for them, not what is best for you through them. Use things and love people, not the other way around.

So loving my neighbor might involve reporting them to the law if they are commiting a crime, Or some such thing. I have had difficulty in the past using people and loving things. I’m a work in progress:blush:

 

[snarflemike]

So loving my neighbor might involve reporting them to the law if they are commiting a crime, Or some such thing.

That’s correct. More broadly, loving your neighbor does not include aiding them in remaining in their sin, among other things.

I have had difficulty in the past using people and loving things. I’m a work in progress:blush:

Welcome to the human race.

 

[LegoGE1947]

That’s correct. More broadly, loving your neighbor does not include aiding them in remaining in their sin, among other things.

Welcome to the human race.

I wish there was some way that they could take the top of my head off and remove the garbage and replace it with the correct thinking on stuff:shrug: