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georgemiller
Guest
How does one explain the abundant pain and suffering derived from so many natural disasters? Is it the will of God? Is it a result of original sin? Where in scripture can i find an answer?
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Genesis … Expulsion from the Garden of Eden … Cain & Abel … Job
Read “The Prophets” by Norman Podhoretz.
Read also the times when God was very harsh with the Israelites … and even when God was on their side, he ordered them to show no mercy … and when they did disobey God, he was very hard on them.
Consider that God is the CREATOR and that we humans are at best merely a bunch of creations … We may not FEEL like merely a bunch of creations, but that’s what we are.
Compared with God, we are less than that earthworm we unearth in the garden.
Just because we think, doesn’t mean that we are immune to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
We, you and I, are going to die. Someday. Maybe when we least expect it.
Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep. But if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Noah… Tower of Babel…
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teachccd
Guest
Is stubbing your toe on the corner of a wall the will of God? No. Our planet is made up of land that consists of plates. When those plates build up enough pressure it results in them moving and we have earthquakes. When pressure systems unite in our atmosphere we have wind and so on. Natural disasters occur because the world is the way it is and why God allows such events is only known to Him. Why do people get cancer? Is it the result of sin or a mutation in the cell growth whereby the normal rate of growth is set out of control?
While Scripture will provide instances of natural disasters it will not examine the mind of God to allow for our comprehension. Yes, we are in a fallen world because of sin and the perfection that existed before the fall is void until the end of time. Christ came to redeem mankind in order to reconcile us back to the Father but all of the consequences of our sin remain. Why natural disasters? Only God knows… teachccd
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TimothyH
Guest
Yet every day at Mass, the priest at my Church holds Jesus aloft and says, “This is the Lamb of God, who TAKES AWAY the sins of the world.”
That has very real meaning. It is not just hyperbole. I think we downplay that sometimes and it robs us of very real joy and hope.
-Tim-
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
One of the other posters described the tectonic plates moving around … and that is an excellent description … God built our Planet Earth for us … He designed it to be hospitable to life.
Without weather, for example, we would not have rain for our crops.
So, we have a wide diversity of climate and a very dynamic planet.
There is an essay or two around here, and I will try to remind myself to go and look for it.
But, our planet is just the right distance from the sun, for example … farther away and it would be too cold; closer and it would be too hot. The cosmic rays give us clouds. The magentosphere protects us from too much radiation from outer space.
Our atmosphere is ONLY four or five miles thick but for reasons that we cannot comprehend, the atmosphere is still there after billions of years of bombardment by the sun and by catastrophic meteor hits and by volcanic eruptions … how does THAT work … that the atmosphere has survived meteors and volcanoes???
How have we survived the changes that caused the Sahara Forest to become the Sahara Desert??? Not man made by any means.
God has given us a dynamic Earth and He has also given us the intellect to be able to study it and learn about it.
Pretty amazing.
But I will tie a string around my finger to remind me to look for that essay.
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06convert
Guest
I think the thing to remember is the whole brokenness of mankind with the world around us.
Before original sin there were no earthquakes, no tornadoes, no floods, no cancer, no death, no suffering. Everything was in communion with God and all of creation. But mankind fell into sin and thus suffering and disconnect came to the world. Now we fight amongst ourselves about petty things, a storm can leave us homeless, words can make us feel broken. So our time is spent with much suffering. But God in his mercy gave us gifts and gave us a way to return to him despite our sins. While things will never be perfect this side of heaven, we can still do our best so that we can make it to heaven someday.
Before original sin there were no earthquakes, no tornadoes, no floods, no cancer, no death, no suffering. Everything was in communion with God and all of creation. But mankind fell into sin and thus suffering and disconnect came to the world. Now we fight amongst ourselves about petty things, a storm can leave us homeless, words can make us feel broken. So our time is spent with much suffering. But God in his mercy gave us gifts and gave us a way to return to him despite our sins. While things will never be perfect this side of heaven, we can still do our best so that we can make it to heaven someday.
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razredge
Guest
I think that’s a bit of a cop out to be honest. There is a very real problem of evil that I don’t think can simply be explained away by Adam & Eve eating fruit from the wrong tree in Eden.
For one there definitely was death before the Fall, the fossil record shows that.
I think the free process idea where the universe operates according to it’s physical laws without interference from God despite the suffering caused by these free processes (similar to how God doesn’t interfere with our free will and stop us from doing evil actions).
Plantinga has another possible solution where natural evil is caused by the power of Satan and his demons.
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bogeydogg
Guest
The problem with that is that you have come perilously close to explaining Deism as a means of understanding the Christian Faith when the two are incompatible.
God Bless
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razredge
Guest
How is that Deism? Do you think God determines all our actions like some sort of divine puppet show?
I would think not (unless your a Calvinist), so if we have free will why can’t the world have free agency to operate according to its natural processes?
Do you have a better explanation? The only other reasonable explanation I have seen is that natural evil is caused by the power of Satan and his demons.
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bogeydogg
Guest
Jeremiah 19 7 And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth. 8 And I will make this city a horror, a thing to be hissed at. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its wounds. 9 And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.’ 10 "Then you shall break the flask in the sight of the men who go with you, 11 and shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: So will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, so that it can never be mended. Men shall bury in Topheth because there will be no place else to bury. 12 Thus will I do to this place, declares the LORD, and to its inhabitants, making this city like Topheth.
Isaiah 44 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 45 I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Ezekiel 5 7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are more turbulent than the nations that are all around you, and have not walked in my statutes or obeyed my rules, and have not even acted according to the rules of the nations that are all around you, 8 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, even I, am against you. And I will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. 9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. 10 Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers. And I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds.
Ezekiel 6 Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and the hills, to the ravines and the valleys: Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. 4 Your altars shall become desolate, and your incense altars shall be broken, and I will cast down your slain before your idols. 5 And I will lay the dead bodies of the people of Israel before their idols, and I will scatter your bones around your altars. 6 Wherever you dwell, the cities shall be waste and the high places ruined, so that your altars will be waste and ruined, your idols broken and destroyed, your incense altars cut down, and your works wiped out. 7 And the slain shall fall in your midst, and you shall know that I am the LORD.
de·ism noun, often capitalized \ˈdē-ˌi-zəm, ˈdā-\
: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe
the·ism noun \ˈthē-ˌi-zəm\
: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world*** who transcends yet is immanent in the world***
The Bible teaches that God is immanent not far off and that He governs all things such as the hearts of kings thus Christianity is a theist religion.
The difficulty is that Christianity also teaches without equivocation that man is free and responsible.
Therefore those who would be faithful are obligated to believe that God is sovereign and man is free. In calling me names and making a false assumption about what I believe you also created a false dilemma by assuming that man is either free or God leads us around on puppet strings when in fact the Bible says yes man is free and God governs the entire scope of history. It is a paradox but paradox and contradiction are not the same thing.
God Bless
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bogeydogg
Guest
Furthermore your last sentence smacks of dualism which is also a non-Christian ideology.
du·al·ism noun \ˈdü-ə-ˌli-zəm also ˈdyü-\
1: a theory that considers reality to consist of two irreducible elements or modes
2: the quality or state of being dual or of having a dual nature
3: a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil
The belief that evil is caused by Satan smacks of the equal and irreducible powers of good and evil battling it out in the heavenlies when the Bible never elevates Satan in such a way. Satan is a creature and in no way equal with God. Those who say you must have evil if you will have good are also dualists. This is not a Christian idea it is pagan.
God Bless
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jcrichton
Guest
It is in the scheme of things; the Universe was Created with purpose; (my grandfather was a farmer; he was totally illeterate; he managed the numbers that were associated with farming… yet, he was a skilled farmer; he learned from nature how to work the land… we have lost much of that connection–the one that the “less intelligent” animals still possess and use); natural disasters happen and will continue to happen (St. Matthew 24:4-8); many of these natural disasters are augmented by our meddling (alterations and insertions) and our greed; the devastation they cause is aided by our failure to read the signs and our blind ego (i.e.: building in the path of destruction or eroding the ecosystem or the introduction of contaminants…); oh… there’s also that ole black magic: dependency on self/creature and the rejection of our Creator!
Maran atha!
Angel
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razredge
Guest
It is not my idea! It’s a development of Alvin Plantinga free will defense (which most philosophers have accepted as solving the logical problem of evil). And it’s not dualism either, since it doesn’t state that Satan is as powerful as God.
I myself tend to believe in the free natural process theory and that God is transcendant and not part of the universe he created (which is one of the basic truths of monotheism)
The problem with this is the lack of evidence in support of God governing all things, was Hitler’s heart ruled by God? Did God create the Japan earthquake?
While I think God can intervene in the regular working of the universe and does intervene on rare occasions (like with Christ), he doesn’t like doing so and prefers to let things run as the laws of physics dictate (which he himself created. remember - so in that sense he is immanent in the universe and its workings).
This is much like how God lets us live our own lives and choose our own actions, or do you claim otherwise?
If he governs all things such as the hearts of kings where was he when Hitler was around? Did he create the Japan earthquake?
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bogeydogg
Guest
Yes and yes. Read the scriptural verse I already quoted and then go read the Book of Habakkuk. God clearly does bring disaster and God uses evil kings for His own reasons.
Chapter 1 5 "Look at the nations and watch-- and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told. 6*** I am raising up the Babylonians***, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwelling places not their own. 7 They are a feared and dreaded people; they are a law to themselves and promote their own honor.
Given this clear teaching of Scripture Plantinga is wrong.
BTW dualism is the belief that the opposing forces are irreducible (that is one must exist in order for the other to exist) not necessarily equal.
Furthermore you notion that God lets the universe govern itself and steps in only when needed is deism it is not a Christian idea.
Period.
I am sorry you don’t like it but the teaching of Scripture is actually quite clear.
God Bless
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razredge
Guest
God made Hitler kill 6 million of his chosen people, He created the tsunami and earthquake?
Please, If that’s true I don’t believe in God.
The problem is that you are quoting from the Old Testament which says a whole lot of things, that we as Christians don’t follow or believe today.
Can you find me a quote from Jesus that says these things?
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bogeydogg
Guest
I never said God caused Hitler to do those things once again God is sovereign and man is free. It is quite different to say God does nothing while atrocities happen because he is far away and indifferent it is quite another to say that God allow things to happen for His own reasons.
If you believe the OT is no longer applicable then I give you the words of the Lord
Matthew 5: 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The belief that the OT and NT are totally separate and one applies and one does not is also what Marcion believed and the Church condemned him as heretic nearly 1700 years ago.
Concerning Christ teaching the absolute control of God in all circumstances
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; 8you are of more value than many sparrows.
In other words your trial and suffering cannot happen apart from God. Even a sparrow cannot die apart from God. God has numbered the hair on your head and everything that happens to you is part of His will. It does not mean God likes us to suffer it means He allows it to happen.
As a Christian we must confess this because if God is only intervening as necessary how can we be sure of salvation or fulfilled prophecy? I know this is hard, but this is what the Bible teaches. But do not be shaken in your faith. It is the greatest comfort to me that no matter what has happened it has first come through the hands of my God who loves me. Just because I cannot see the dawn does not mean it will not come.
Remember you serve the God who said
Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
God who called the prophets allowed them to be killed. God allowed his Son to be Killed and according to Isaiah 53 it was the will of the LORD to crush Him. In Genesis Joseph tells his brothers “You meant it for evil but God meant it for good.” Look at Job who suffered horribly but was even then able to say, “I know my redeemer lives.”
The God who has told you to “take up your cross and follow” will never leave you nor forsake you. This is comfort not pain. This is God who is near you in your trial who strengthens you for it and will bring you safely through it. This is the hope of the Christian in the here and now and it is this very nearness which assures us of the promises to come.
God Bless
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God—Sirach 11:14
*God wills natural disasters either for the punishment of sins or for the reconciliation of sinners to Himself. These things are viewed as bitter medicines which are hard to take but are good for us since God does nothing that does not benefit His creation. This then means any suffering that accurse whether it is emotional or physical is a good thing and can be used to benefit ones relationship with God. The only bad suffering is wasted suffering.
Also the “evils” this scripture verse is referring to are those of nature e.g., death, disease, hunger, earthquakes, etc. The evils that God does not do are sins because sin requires two things: the punishment and the guilt. God is the author of the punishment but the guilt is all mans.
*There are plenty of places in the Scriptures that show the above. One of my favorites is the Book of Job. He shows that all things proceed from the Hand of God and that we should at all times give thanks and praise to God for everything He bestows on us and everything He takes away from us.
For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.—Hebrew 12:6
*Most people will complain that God could never do this but the Scriptures show He can and that He does. Yet such people are the same ones that would leave during Christ’s Passion saying; “There is no God! How could He treat His only Begotten Son this way?” And then they would completely miss out on the ressurecttion. As prideful beings we usually forget that even though Gods ways are mysterious they are still Just and therefore GOOD!
The sad thing is while we claim suffering is evidence of an evil God, He is trying to tell show us that it is evidence that He love us. Suffering is the only thing we can offer back to God! The God that gives us everything also gives us something we can offer back to Him as a sign of our love and we waste it and even worse dont appreciate it.*
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
There have been a number of scriptural references … many from Genesis … about our fallen nature having resulted in our having to suffer pain and death.
Anyway, I had promised to look for an essay describing this planet, the way God created it.
Well, this is the best I could do. It took a while to find it:
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There have been a variety of “gas bubbles” in Africa [killed a lot of people], and probably elsewhere as well.
The oceans have a lot of methane; we just need to figure out how to capture it.
Some as hydrides and some as suspended gas.
When a “gas bubble” in the ocean suddenly surfaces, it causes the density of the ocean to decrease and if a ship is passing by, it will spontaneously and instantly sink.
This planet is NOT a big blue marble. It is essentially a volcano with some people on the surface … a red hot ball of molten rock 7000 miles in diameter with a temperature of several thousand degrees, spinning at 1000 mph measured at the equator. The molten rock is covered by a paper thin layer of solid room temperature material … about 30 miles thick and the surface layer has major cracks and is moving constantly … allowing the molten rock to seep to the surface and where it seeps we can see and sample and measure and analyze the liquids and gases that emerge. Where they are underwater, they are called “black smokers” and they are so hot they can melt the submarines sent down to investigate and explore.
The number of volcanos is not known; the estimates are as high as 100,000 but the number is constantly revised. Most are underwater. Some are very strange, such as one very near the South Pole, Mt. Erebus, which is as far as we know, the only continuous caldera volcano, which each day spews hundreds of tons of chlorine and other basic chemicals high into the atmosphere. Which accounts in part for the so-called ozone hole.
At the same time, this planet is bombarded by solar explosions with electrically charged particles of all kinds, many or most of which are fatal to life. However, this planet also has a magnetic field that deflects the charged particles to the north and south magnetic poles; however, every 25000 years or so [it varies] the magnetic poles swap polarity; this is documented in solidified volcanic layers found in places such as Hawaii which has a very long historical/geological record and is easily accessible and an easily studied set of solidified volcanic lava fields.
The interactions between the sun’s heating and bombardments and cosmic rays and the Earth’s atmosphere causes strange and massive changes to the atmosphere including: changes to density, dramatic expansion of the extent of the stratosphere, the Aurora Borealis, and seasonal changes to the ozone layer, more in some places than others, which is measured in the number of molecules per cubic mile. The ozone layer is densest at the north and south poles and thinnest at the equator and also changes dramatically with the seasons, being twice as dense in Spring as it is dense in late Fall. North and South polar regions are, of course, somewhat opposite in seasonality … but partly because the planet maintains a more or less constant orientation with respect to the sun even though it is tilted. [Source: Dobson, Exploring the Atmosphere … it has not been revised since his death in 1976,]
This planet has a corrosive atmosphere being 20% oxygen; with about 80% nitrogen and a tiny trace amount of other gases. Despite being hit by the solar bombardment and being hit by cosmic rays and being hit by massive meteors that have radically changed the surface, the gaseous atmosphere persists. There are dissolved gases in the oceans that occupy the largest part of the surface; and those gases migrate back and forth to the atmosphere constantly. The oceans are only on average about 4 miles deep; the gaseous atmosphere is only about ten miles thick, although humans must bring artificial supplies of air/oxygen if they ascend more than about five miles, and there are still measurable amounts of air molecules even one hundred miles above the surface.
Twelve men have walked on our moon. And others were supposed to go there but our Congress, after all the hardware and training had been built, accomplished, and paid for, cancelled the last three missions which were the science missions. Apollo 18, 19, and 20. People still want to return to the moon to study what it has to show us including helium-3. They would even like to build a habitat there to allow long term study.
Two men have traveled to the deepest part of the earth’s ocean … seven miles deep … and they were so terrified by the harsh conditions that they returned to the surface after only twenty minutes and they had no desire to return to study anything.
We still have a lot to learn about our planet Earth, but we do know that it is an exceptionally harsh environment, worthy of further study, but it is not something that we humans have to worry about protecting.
This planet is no more delicate than any other volcano.
A volcano does not need to be “saved”.
Nor does the Earth need to be saved.
No one can or needs to save the planet any more than they can or need to save a volcano.
If we can harvest and develop any kind of energy from this volcanic planet, then we should do it.
This little essay was from memory but gives you a place to start looking things up.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
This piece had to be cut because of length:
And if your kids complain about being bored, then have them start updating Dobson’s book. We could use a set of data tables as well as a set of annual variation curves for Figure 6.2 [same figure number in both the 1963 and 1968 editions] for the South Latitudes as well as data updates. Or pay them to read the work of Gordon Gribble on naturally-occurring organohalogens. No color graphics, please; they only detract from the pure data analysis. Pretty pictures do not enhance understanding. What we need are expanded data and graphs.
And if your kids complain about being bored, then have them start updating Dobson’s book. We could use a set of data tables as well as a set of annual variation curves for Figure 6.2 [same figure number in both the 1963 and 1968 editions] for the South Latitudes as well as data updates. Or pay them to read the work of Gordon Gribble on naturally-occurring organohalogens. No color graphics, please; they only detract from the pure data analysis. Pretty pictures do not enhance understanding. What we need are expanded data and graphs.
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