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Erwin
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How soon after Jesus was born did the Holy Family have to flee to Egypt?
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Todd_Easton
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I think it is generally reckoned that Jesus was two years old or under when they fled to Egypt based on Matthew 2:16:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
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Vince1022
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No one knows.
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patrick457
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As mentioned, no one really knows when. Based on the age limit Herod imposed (Matthew 2:16), it is thought that maybe Jesus was two years old or possibly under.
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DaveBj
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Somewhere between 40 days (the time period for fulfilling the Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple in Jerusalem) and 2 years (as explained by posts above).
DaveBj
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Joe_Kelley
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I tend to believe He was about one year old. King Herod was the thorough man. If the date given by the Magi indicated that Jesus was one, then King Herod probably decided that plus or minus a year should make it certain.
Note that the Magi arrived a significant time after His birth. They were not at the stable in Bethlehem. Joseph, Mary and Jesus were settled into a house by the time they arrived.
Note that the Magi arrived a significant time after His birth. They were not at the stable in Bethlehem. Joseph, Mary and Jesus were settled into a house by the time they arrived.
Matthew 2:9-10
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patrick457
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If I could just mention, ‘stables’ in those days weren’t edifices totally separate from the house. People in those days either kept their animals inside their houses (which would then have two storeys, with the upper level serving as the family’s living quarters) or employed something natural - say, a cave - and built their houses beside or over it.
I think it could be possible that the Holy Family stayed with the family who owned the ‘stable’ where Jesus was born.
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Vince1022
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We have no idea how long after birth the Magi arrived. Matthew’s Gospel says nothing about a stable.
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patrick457
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Yes, it doesn’t. But then again, all it says is:
Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, magi from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who was born King of the Judeans? For we saw His star in the east, and we have come to worship Him.”
That’s it. A short sentence giving the general area where Jesus was born, and nothing else.
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Vince1022
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Right, and so, according to Matthew’s account, there was no journey to Bethlehem, so it can be presumed Mary and Joseph were already there…which raises a question, if that’s true, of why a birth in a stable would make sense in Matthew’s Gospel.
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patrick457
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Which reminds me: many people assume a barn because of the phatnē or ‘manger’. But Luke does not say anything about a barn as well!
As I’ve written a few posts ago, people in those days kept the animals inside their houses for practical reasons. By being inside, the animals were protected from the elements and theft.
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Joe_Kelley
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Note that St Luke says
Also note that he states
Luke 2:4-7
Also note that he states
Luke 1:1-4 It seems most likely that Mary was the eyewitness that gave Luke this portion.
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Vince1022
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Possible, yes, but that doesn’t make it objectively most likely.
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Ron_Conte
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Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich states that the Holy Family stayed in a large cave on the outskirts of Bethlehem. She has the flight to Egypt taking place when Jesus was about 9 months to 1 year, and she says that the flight began from Nazareth, on Feb. 29th.
‘Was it today that Joseph
started for Egypt?’ to which she answered very clearly and decisively: ‘No, the day he
started on the flight was what is now February 29th.’ – Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, p. 180 ebook
And tradition (small t) affirms that the Birth of Jesus took place in a cave: “On the first Christmas of my ministry as Successor of the Apostle Peter I mentioned publicly the great desire I had to celebrate the beginning of my Pontificate in Bethlehem at the cave of the Nativity (cf. Homily at Midnight Mass, 24 December 1978, No. 3). That was not possible then; and has not been possible until now.” – Pope John Paul II, homily on the occasion of his pilgrimage to the Holy Land, 2000.
In my chronology, Jesus was about 15 months old at the flight to Egypt.
‘Was it today that Joseph
started for Egypt?’ to which she answered very clearly and decisively: ‘No, the day he
started on the flight was what is now February 29th.’ – Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, p. 180 ebook
And tradition (small t) affirms that the Birth of Jesus took place in a cave: “On the first Christmas of my ministry as Successor of the Apostle Peter I mentioned publicly the great desire I had to celebrate the beginning of my Pontificate in Bethlehem at the cave of the Nativity (cf. Homily at Midnight Mass, 24 December 1978, No. 3). That was not possible then; and has not been possible until now.” – Pope John Paul II, homily on the occasion of his pilgrimage to the Holy Land, 2000.
In my chronology, Jesus was about 15 months old at the flight to Egypt.
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Nathan_Wagar
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I’ve heard a very convincing case made by Kenneth Bailey in “Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes” that Jesus was born in a home. Let me know if you’d like to discuss it a bit more, I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I found it a fascinating possibility…
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ConstantineTG
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The old tradition is the birth occured in a cave. This tradition is recorded in the Protoevangelium of James. Whilst the Protoevangelium was written much later, it did capture many of the beliefs that Christians held but left unwritten until its time of writing. Another indication of the authority and authenticity of this tradition is that Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) celebrate as one of the 12 Great Fests the Entrance of Mary into the Temple. That event is recorded nowhere in Bible Canon, but can be found in the Protoevangelium. Another indication of the authentic tradition found in the Protoevangelium is its the only place you will see the name of the parents of Mary. Both East and West accept the names of Mary’s parents as Sts. Joachim and Anne.
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DaveBj
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That doesn’t make sense. They would have been safe in Nazareth; it was out of Herod’s territory.
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patrick457
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This would still be consistent with the idea that Jesus was born in a house: people in those days also employed caves (which could be natural or man-made) as storage rooms and as shelters for their animals by building their dwellings in front of, over, or near one, thereby making it a part of their house. At times, some people - especially the most destitute - would even convert one into their home!
St. Justin mentions it as well. He saw the cave as a fulfillment of Isaiah 33:16, which in his Greek text read, “he shall dwell in the lofty cave of the strong rock.” So the cave tradition was, and continues to be, very strong in the East. Later in the West however, because the Vulgate version of that verse reads (as per the Hebrew) munimenta saxorum sublimitas ejus, “the fortifications of rocks shall be his highness,” there was no prophecy to fulfill. So the cave tradition was largely forgotten in the West, and because of Luke’s mention of the ‘manger’ people seem to have just begun to assume that Jesus was born in a wooden, Western-style barn. Some medieval artists made a compromise and showed both a cave and a wooden stable to accomodate both versions, but the cave was eventually done away with altogether in later medieval and Renaissance art in the West.
It seems Muhammad knew of the tradition as well. The Quran mentions 'Imran (=St. Joachim), his wife Hannah (=St. Anne), and their children Maryam (=Mary) and Harun. The name 'Imran, cognate to Hebrew Amram, linked Maryam not only to her direct father but also to Amram the father of Moses, Miriam, and Aaron (not a concidence that Maryam is also named ‘sister of Harun’!)
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Nathan_Wagar
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I am aware of the reference, however, I would be careful of making the assumption that because the entrance of Mary in the Temple is possibly an historical event, that this also means the cave is the correct meaning. It does not always follow that because one thing in a source is true, that all things are therefore true, particularly in non-inspired work. I am not saying that the cave is not the correct understanding, however, I am saying that making it the only understanding based off of this argument is tenuous. I would like to point out a few flaws to this understanding of cave based off of middle eastern culture:
- Joesph was returning to the town of his origin, and would have had deep extended family ties. All he had to do was say “I am Jospeph, son of Heli, son of Mathat, the son of Levi,” and most homes would have been open to him.
- Joseph was a “royal,” from the line of David. The family of David was so famous in this town that it was referred to as the “city of David.” Being of that family, David most likely would have been welcome in town.
- In nearly every culture a woman about to give birth is given special attention, particularly to a descendant of David. The community itself would feel an obligation to provide some form of shelter. Are we really to expect that in an honor and shame culture, they would turn away a descendant of David and his pregnant wife? This goes far beyond mere lack of hospitality, and could potentially bring shame on the entire village.
- Mary had relatives in a nearby village. Mary had visited Elizabeth a few months prior in the hill country of Judea. Bethlehem is located in the center of Judea. By the time they arrived in Bethlehem, they were but a short distance from the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth. If Joseph had failed to find a place to stay in Bethlehem he would naturally have turned to Zechariah and Elizabeth. The question is, did he have time to make the arrangements?
- He did have time. Luke 2:4 says that he and Mary “went up from Galilee to Judea” and verse 6 states “*while they were there, the days *were accomplished that she should be delivered.” The average Christian thinks that she was about to give birth the same night they arrived, and so Joseph, in his haste, accepted any shelter available. This is merely reinforced by Christmas pageants.
- The traditional idea of the birth comes, yes, from the protoevangelum of James, however, although some possibly true traditions are recorded, there are many problems as well, not least of which the author has read the gospel stories but appears unfamiliar with Near Eastern geography at this time. For instance, he describes the road between Bethlehem and Jerusalem as a desert, when in fact it was rich farm land.
- Simple village homes in Palestine often only had two rooms. There was a guest room, and the main room was a family room. The end of the room next to the door was either a few feet lower or bloacked off with timbers, and into this area the animals were driven every night. Every morning these same animals were taken out and tied up in the courtyard, and the animal stall would be cleaned for the day. The animals are safe from theft and also ironically provide warmth for the people in the home. The family room had a slight slope down to the animal stalls which aided in sweeping and cleaning. Mangers for cows were cut out of the floor on the raised family room side bordering the lowered stable, so that if the cows were hungry they could stand and eat. Mangers for sheep made of wood were simply placed on the floor in the lowered stable.
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Nathan_Wagar
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- These homes are implicitly understood elsewhere in the Bible, as referenced by 1 Samuel 28, where Saul kills a fatted calf that was “in the house” (v 24). Another example is Jephthath in Judges 11:29-40, who makes a vow that if God will grant him victory he will kill sacrifice the first thing that comes out of his house. To his horror, after he wins the battle his daughter is the first to step out of it. He most likely fully expected his animals to come bounding out in the morning, and only made the vow because the home also stored animals, never expecting his daughter to step out. Matthew 5:14-15 assumes the same type of one-room home, as Jesus speaks of the light from one lamp shining on everyone in the house, which is only possible if there is only one room. In Luke 13:10-17 Jesus heals a woman on the Sabbath and the pharisees object.
This makes sense because this took place in the morning, and it would be unthinkable to leave them in the house during the day. His main point was that on this day, he untied a person, and brings new poignancy to this passage.
Interestingly, one of the earliest Arabic translations of this passage (9th century, only eight surviving copies, recorded from the Greek) records this verse as “does not every one of you untie his ox his donkey from the manger *in the house *and take it outside to water it?” No Greek manuscript contains this reading, but apparently this Arabic Christians understood the text correctly.
- Just to throw it out there, many simple homes in the Holy Land begin in caves and then later are expanded, so all this does not necessarily rule out a cave.
- In the phrase “no room in the inn,” the word translated as “room” (topos) does not normally mean room as in a separate room in a commercial inn, but rather a “space.” The word translated as “inn” is katalyma, which is not the ordinary word for a commercial inn. Instead, *pandocheion *is used (Luke 10:25-37). Literally, *katalyma *means “a place to stay” and can refer to many types of shelters. The three option available for meaning in the Biblical tradition are “inn” (English translation tradition), “house”(Arabic Biblical tradition of more than 1000 years) or “guest room” (Luke’s choice). This is shown in Luke 22, where the upper room is a guest room (katalyma) in a private home that is prepared for the Passover. It makes sense that Luke has the same understanding in the Nativity scene as well, after taking all the above evidence into account, and so the correct understanding is most likely that Joseph, relying on the hospitality of another person, found that there was no room/space in the guest room, because it was already full, which is also noted by I. Howard Marshall. Other scholars such as Alfred Plummer in the 19th century and Anglican scholar E.F.F Bishop (who lived in Bethlehem), have also noted problems with the "traditional (pageant-style) view, Bishop based on his cultural knowledge.
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